Topic: spawning scarbs from spyders

[666_Mutley_666]

do scarabs tha you produce from the spyders count as caulsties/survivng units when totaling victory pts 

havent got the codex yet so im not sure

[Zylar]

From my understanding of the rules the only thing that counts for the Tomb Spyder in terms of victory points or scoring is the wounds on the tomb spyder model itself.  This is nice in some ways (scoring) because you can never have it wandering around with less than 50% wounds (it'll be dead).

I had a quick question to add to this thread about spyders and shooting rather than start a new one.  Let's say I've got a tomb spyder who now has 2 scarab swarms attached and someone shoots at it scoring 5 hits.  Due to the modes with multiple toughness rules would all 5 of those hits be allocated to the swarms or would I assign 2 to the swarms 1 to the spyder then 2 to the swarms again (making 4 swarm rolls and 1 spyder roll)?  I've never actually used them in a game so am very interested in learning more about how effectively or ineffectively the scarab swarms help to screen them in the shooting phase.

[Gutstikk]

All wounds are on the models with the appropriate toughness first; meaning the Spyder doesn't get wounded until all of the scarabs are accounted for.

[Kiefatar]

Erm.... Maybe... Torrent of Fire rule comes into play here. I'll have to reread how multiple toughness/save units work again, I'm not sure which would take priority.

[rushdrill]

All wounds are on the models with the appropriate toughness first; meaning the Spyder doesn't get wounded until all of the scarabs are accounted for.

That is how I play with them.

[Zylar]

Let me elaborate a bit on the example

Say you have a unit of space marines that's shooting your tomb spider.  Of their 10 shots let's say 7 shots hit the unit.  The tomb spider unit consits of a tomb spyer and two bases of scarab swarms all will their full wounds values. 

A) Do you roll all of the 7 hits against a toughness value of scarabs or spyder?  (I think the answer is scarabs)

B) At what point does the spyder get any wounds against it, do all scarab bases have to be killed or do they simply have to no longer
be the majority?

C) If/when hits are allocated to the sypder do you have the SM player roll against the spyder's toughness?

D) With assault/heavy weapons that are in a unit their to hit rolls should be done on separate dice... so can you allocate those hits first to the scarabs letting the weaker shots be allocated to the spyder?

I'm going to re-read the section on multiple toughness/save models tonight since I'm causing myself more confusion the more I think about it @ work.   

[Kiefatar]

This sort of situation is complicated when we deal with single wound models. When dealing with multiple wound models, it becomes even more complex.

Each Base is 1 model, though tomb spyders have 2 wounds and scarabs 3.

Assuming the 1 spyder and 2 scarabs combination, 4 hits should allow the person to force the scarab to be hit through torrent of fire. If this is done at the spyders toughness/armor save or at the majority (scarabs) I don't know. Majority Toughness/Armor save rules would dictate that your rolling on majority toughness of the unit, 3 and not the spyders, but again, torrent of fire is a new rule.

3rd Ed, would have you wounding with 7 bolter hits, removing both scarab bases of 3 wounds each, and taking one save for the spyder, bypassing his improved toughness.

With the Torrent of Fire rule, it could go 2 ways.

1. 4 bolter hits on the unit, he forces you to take one on the spyder, you roll to wound/save seperately from the rest of the shots which will fall against the scarabs.

2. 9 bolter hits on the unit, then taking into account majority toughness, all are wounding T3. The then 6 wounds for example, would kill both scarab bases, but again, Torrent of fire allows the shooter to apply one wound to a specific model, the Spyder, forcing him to take a armor save.

Even without Torrent of fire rules, every model (and multi wound models still only count as a single model) must be allocated a hit before any can be given a second, third, and so forth. Even if the resulting wounds are distributed to as few a # of bases as possible.

... My head hurts...

[Gutstikk]

No third ed - that will just make heads explode with confusion!

I'll answer the questions as posted:
Say you have a unit of space marines that's shooting your tomb spider.  Of their 10 shots let's say 7 shots hit the unit.  The tomb spider unit consits of a tomb spyer and two bases of scarab swarms all will their full wounds values. 
So, the Spyder unit is taking 7 bolter hits

A) Do you roll all of the 7 hits against a toughness value of scarabs or spyder?  (I think the answer is scarabs)
The scarabs is indeed the toughness value used, as the majority of the wounds in the squad are on T3 models (6 @ T3, 2 @ T6)

B) At what point does the spyder get any wounds against it, do all scarab bases have to be killed or do they simply have to no longer be the majority?
The Spyder can only be wounded once all of the wounds that are actually T3 are accounted for. This means that if all seven shots wound, the scarabs would receive 6 wounds and the Spyder would receive 1.

C) If/when hits are allocated to the sypder do you have the SM player roll against the spyder's toughness?
Nope, it's always toughness 3 until all of the scarabs are dead. Meaning, the Spyder counts as toughness 3 to any unit shooting at it or assaulting it provided there was a scarab alive when the enemy makes their action. In combat, the same is true, except each initiative step would require you to check if no scarabs remaining.

For instance, if this first marine squad kills all the scarabs when it shoots, the next Space Marine squad to shoot would be rolling to wound against the Spyder's normal toughness of 6, as it is now back in the majority.

In combat, if the marines killed all of the scarabs when charging at initiative 4, then the Spyder would be toughness 6 vs a powerfist striking at initiative 1.

D) With assault/heavy weapons that are in a unit their to hit rolls should be done on separate dice... so can you allocate those hits first to the scarabs letting the weaker shots be allocated to the spyder?
Actually, all rolls to wound are performed simultaneously... so there would be no 'weaker' shots. As for armor saves, models that do not get a save must be removed in preference to those that do. So you would have to lose the scarabs to bolter fire before you are permitted to make saves with the spyder.

Hope that's of some help; it's one of those situations where thinking too hard isn't helpful.

edit - misplaced quote tag corrected to italics

[Zylar]

Wow, thanks Gut!!  That was very concise and I'm pretty sure I've got a firm handle on it now.  It does suck though that you can end up suffering wounds on the tomb spyder in certain cases when the roll to wound was made against a toughness of 3 rather than it's toughness.  But it is what it is 

Thanks again!
Zylar

[rushdrill]

I'll answer the questions as posted:

You did very well & cleared up that type of scenario for all types of armies facing each other.

I will reference this example, and have actually tried to explained this unsuccessfully to my opponent over the weekend, inadvertently killing his Eldrad & Maugan Ra, when all the seer counsel was killed in the shooting phase. The Eldar HQ had too many extra wounds to take at the Warlock toughness, due to them being in the majority.

Hence bravo on your explanation of the rule.

-Dan

[Milford Cubicle]

B) At what point does the spyder get any wounds against it, do all scarab bases have to be killed or do they simply have to no longer be the majority?
The Spyder can only be wounded once all of the wounds that are actually T3 are accounted for. This means that if all seven shots wound, the scarabs would receive 6 wounds and the Spyder would receive 1.

I don't have the rulebook handy ATM, but I don't think that's how it goes. Must check when I get home...

Anyways, the way I remember it every model must be allocated a wound before you can allocate a second one to the same model. Thus, in the situation of seven wounding hits, the wounds would be allocated as follows:
scarab; scarab; spyder; scarab; scarab; spyder; scarab, accounting for 5 hits on the scarabs and 2 on the spyder. If the scarabs get no save, that would result one dead swarm and leave the other with 1 wound, and the spyder would roll 2 saves.

[Gutstikk]

I have to double-check this myself... this was my initial thought but I reasoned myself into what was posted earlier; let me know what you find. One of my other friends was also thinking along your lines, so now I am unsure...

[Khodexus]

You know, while we're on the topic of spawning scarabs, there's something which has been bugging me for a while.

If you have a Tomb Spyder with a Squad of Scarabs with Disruption Fields with it, does it spawn more Scarabs with Disruption Fields, or do you end up with some with and some without?

Will have to look at my codex again, this may be a moot point, but I was curious if you could use them in this way.

[Lode]

You know, while we're on the topic of spawning scarabs, there's something which has been bugging me for a while.

If you have a Tomb Spyder with a Squad of Scarabs with Disruption Fields with it, does it spawn more Scarabs with Disruption Fields, or do you end up with some with and some without?

Will have to look at my codex again, this may be a moot point, but I was curious if you could use them in this way.

It's easy to answer

You can't join a Tomb Spyder with an existing unit of Scarab Swarm, since it's a Monstrous Creature and not an Independant Character. (so you can never have a "Tomb Spyder with Scarab Swarm with Disruption Fields" unit)

And the scarabs it creates are all basic scarabs swarms, with no disruption field wargear

[Gutstikk]

I do stand corrected - you would need to assign the wounds to the unit as follows:
2 to scarabs, 1 to spyder, 2 to scarabs, 1 to spyder, 1 to scarabs. Then you roll your wounds, and take the appropriate saves. Note; you can assign whichever wounds to whichever models, so all rockets/lascannons/etc ought to hit the scarabs.

Keep in mind scarabs can almost always claim cover if you are careful, so you should always have some form of improved cover save with them.

[Khodexus]

I had a feeling that might be the case, just vaguely recalled something about it coming up in the past.  Might be interesting to give the Spyders an upgrade which could allow them to spawn D field scarabs, though I'm not sure how useful that'd be when you get down to it.

[EatThisShoe]

A couple minor points:

There is a bit of vagueness in this thread between hits and wounds, and this is partly the rulebook's fault for not having a distinction between wounds from rolling against toughness, and wounds from failing an armor save.

The correct order of operations is:
1. Roll to hit.
2. Assess majority toughness based on all models in the squad, and roll to wound.
3. Determine the majority armor save, based only on models who are valid targets (in LoS and range)
4. Determine if you are subject to torrent of fire, and take a save on the model of your opponent's choice, if you are.
5. Assign 1 wounding hit to each model with the majority armor save first. Then assign 1 wounding hit to each other model at your discretion.
6. If there are more wounding hits than models in the squad (don't forget to subtract the wound from torrent of fire, when applicable) then start assigning a second hit, starting with majority armor save.

So in the example of 7 hits, don't assign them yet, roll to wound first. If the opponent wounds with all 7, they can assign one by torrent of fire to the spider, and then the remaining 6 would be scarab, scarab, spider, scarab, scarab, spider. So accounting for torrent of fire you would actually take 3 saves on the spider and 4 on the scarabs, assuming they were all in range and LoS.

[Sanctjud]

Doesn't it say, that you can't distribute actual wounds across models in a multi-wounded unit.

So, if with torrent of fire, if the spyder fails its save, all the other wounds have to go on it and make more saves.  If if passes its armor saves, the remaining wounds (say 3 bolters) will kill a scarab swarm base as a unit.

My 2 Cents.

[Halfpast_Yellow]

Doesn't it say, that you can't distribute actual wounds across models in a multi-wounded unit.

So, if with torrent of fire, if the spyder fails its save, all the other wounds have to go on it and make more saves.  If if passes its armor saves, the remaining wounds (say 3 bolters) will kill a scarab swarm base as a unit.

My 2 Cents.

Majority armour save rules override that.

[Sanctjud]

Torrent of Fire versus Mixed Armor... and Mixed Armor trumps it... how?

Here's how I see it.

If there is NO torrent of fire, then it is Majority Armor save.
But,
If there is torrent of fire, the player may force a model to make a save.  The spyder.
If it makes its save, go back to Majority Armor.
If it doesn't, and the spyder takes a wound.
THEN, page 27, :
"When a unit contains several multiple-Wound models, and those models take wounds, you MUST remove whole multiple-Wound models from the unit as casuaties..."
And so, would end up making more saves because- "wounds may not be 'spread around' to avoid removing models."

That's how I see, but I have no problem with just regular Majority Armo all the way through... really those scarabs are supposed to 'protect' the spyder as Intended.

My 2 Cents.