Topic: "Machine God = AI" & "40K Tech = Science or Religion?"

[Martin Chaen]

I was thumbing through the newest Space Marine Codes today, while working out the rules I would be needing for my Iron Hands army, when I noticed a peculiar thing.

On page 14 of the codex, it reads:

Some even go as far to incorporate mechanical interfaces that allow the Techmarine to commune directly with the machine Spirit and allow them a greater connection to whatever machine they are ministering to

Now, I've never really thought about this before, but to me this instantly said "Artificial Intelligence" in BIG, pink neon letters... I mean, the Imperiums knowledge of how technology actually works has fallen immensly since the Golden Age of Technology (ref. the loss of the STCs, understanding of the technology used daily, etc).

Could it really be that simple? The "war-spirits" of the weaponry and vehicles, the devices used in space ships, are they all just a form of Artificial Intelligence? Is the Machine God "just" a self-aware A.I.? Personally, I like this idea a lot better than the Machine god being the "spirit" of technology, as as been suggested to me.

What do you think? Any threads/webpages discussing this I should know about?

[EDIT] = Changed the header due to discussion going slowly off-topic in an interesting fashion.

[Rasmus]

The MachineSpirit is something far more than AI though. AI is part of the the concept, but the Machinespirit is even aware and active if the vechile is partially destroyed, able to affect repairs, guiding the thing around, and sensing its environment. Yes, the machinespirit may have similarities to a "smart-car" or such ai-fitted gadget, but I would claim that het machine-spirit is something more. Maybe it isn't mystical like some would claim, but I would say it is something more than just an AI.

[Full Metal Geneticist]

I also remember a piece of fluff of large predators being sacrificed to imbue the Machine spiritss of titans (mainly emperor class) with the blood thirst of battle. I think many princeps would actually try and fight the spirits of the machines to control them ( I think the fluff showed that it made them more likely to fight but harder to control... in the fluff piece a ork warlord dragged the titans out of formation by taunting them and watching as some princeps could'nt control the titans and their charged forwards and got destroyed by gargants.

Can anyone confirm this piece of fluff... or have i just made something up?

I suppose its like AI and maybe a computer controlled firing device.

[TheMightyPikachu]

It's an advanced form of AI

kind of like how chimps and butterflies are both living things that can 'think', but on different levels.

[Vlex]

Yeah, I always thought the Machine God smacked of A.I. I mean, the tech magi could easily make the mistake, seeing as they believe it's the ultimate embodiment of knowledge.

Where does the Omnissiah come in though?

[TheMightyPikachu]

Yeah, I always thought the Machine God smacked of A.I. I mean, the tech magi could easily make the mistake, seeing as they believe it's the ultimate embodiment of knowledge.

Where does the Omnissiah come in though?

how is it any 'mistake' though? So it's an AI that's smarter than they are.

[Malekh]

One of the things I've always liked about 40k is that they're so highly superstitious about technology. I've never believed that there's anything supernatural to their machines and neither do I believe that the machines are run by an AI merely by advanced programs.

And as for the original quote... I see it more as being able to operate the programs with your brain (thoughts)  instead of having to work through a keyboard or voice commands.

[Martin Chaen]

And as for the original quote... I see it more as being able to operate the programs with your brain (thoughts)  instead of having to work through a keyboard or voice commands.

I agree, but I do think that they have to "plug in"...

Hmmm, while I wrote that sentence, I thought "ooor, they could be using bluetooth or 802.11x technology" :-D

[cubbie]

Hmmmmm..... No. Nope. your all wrong. the correct answer is:

When a techpriest atempts to repair a water pump but it is beond his capacity he might think that the machine spirit is angry or dead  but it might just be that some component is warped in a way he dosent recognise, and another 'more holy' priest might be able to apease the machine spirit. Hardware.

When a techpriest performs rites to awaken the machine spirit he is perhaps performing the sqence of on buttens required to turn on the machine. And so in this case the machine spirit would be more superstition than anything else.

When a land raiders 'machine spirit' targets without any intervention this is more likely to be an advanced piece of autotargeting software, a mix of AI software and machine hardware.

When artifical inteligances are alowed to run for 20,000 years longer than intended, merged with human inteligances as say a titan is, and treated as a god it may begin to act as one. and it might begin to apply its fierce intelectual capacities into more mystical things, like divination of probable futures......


Supertition
Software
Hardware
Mystical


These are the natures of the Machine Spirts, in diffent combinations.

A land raiders machine Spirit might be more Hardware than  software / Superstition
A laspistols machine spirit might be more Superstition than anything else.
A Imperiator class titans machine spirit if probably more Software / mystical .....



The machine God however is slightly harder to define. it may be there is none. it might be a relic left over from the dark age of mankind. it might be the C'tan Dragon. its might be the collected conciousness of the AI's of mars.

I dont think a corporeal machine god has ever been mentioned. except in referances to the Dragon

[Kage2020]

Seems that cubbie has given the 'standard' balanced answers.  (This is not meant as an insult, but rather saying that it is a reasoned and comprehensive reply.)  It is, unsurprisingly, a combination of things.  But GW likes to represent the adeptus mechanicus as having a defined approach to this, even if reasonably this is not the case.

Kage

[Lanfeix]

a machine spirit can be control by chaos i think they are spirits connected to the machine

[Kage2020]

And artefacts that have no real moving or technological components can also be possessed by 'daemons'.  So it's not an entirely convincing argument when taken in isolation.

Kage

[Zzarchov]

Actually,  Cubbies is probably right.

I remember fluff with an inquisitor looking into a cult on a hiveworld (which he found out at the last minute to be a genestealer cult) and when the database computer acted up,  he uttered the sacred prayer and performed the ritual to the machine spirit.  He chanted "Kau Meh Puud his!!" and whumped it on the side twice,  causing the machine spirit to rejoice and return to work.

  Aka,  he shouted "Compute This!!" and whumped the tower twice,  I laughed when I read that.   references to the "machine spirit" are just emphasizing how they have no idea how stuff works (as its heresy to delve into any kind of scientific thought)

[Kage2020]

Except, of course, the 'fluff' is fairly clear that they do know how technology works.  The Imperium couldn't function without this knowledge.  Whether they couch it in terms that we or the others are familiar with is another question...

Of course, if I were to use relatively standard terms for this argument it comes down to whether you believe in the "Adeptus Me-can-icus" or the "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" polar opposites.  For me it is a complex balance of the situation involving pseudo-religious hierarchy, the 'philosophies' of the adeptus mechanicus coupled with political interaction (in what are referred to (by me and the individual known as CELS on ASP!) as 'paradigms'), technological diffusion, etc.

It's amazing, but with a bit of imagination and consistency the Imperium can be made to work even without significant amounts of 'hand-wavium' being applied!

Kage

[Zzarchov]

I don't doubt they know how to mimic the technology, but they don't TRULY grasp it.  They know its powers, limits,  stresses.  But they don't understand it.

  Think of it like this,   Roman Age metal workers knew how to forge Iron,  but they didn't really understand what was going on like we do now.   They knew that day was 24hrs,  but not really why,  it didn't matter.

[Athenys Manan]

IMHO it IS possible that the Machine God is a nascent Archailect. The Webway is also an Archailect, albeit a far more advanced one, if you think about it...for those of you wondering what an Archailect is, it's basically a collective artificial intelligence that has transcended it's origins becoming a self-aware femtotech (quantum) entity. So while it's origins are 'mechanical' and A.I. form a part of it, it also exists independently. You could liken an Archailect to a C'Tan in some ways, only that depending on how widespread the original network was they are considerably more vast. 

[Endymion]

Except, of course, the 'fluff' is fairly clear that they do know how technology works.  The Imperium couldn't function without this knowledge.  Whether they couch it in terms that we or the others are familiar with is another question...

Im kind of torn on whether or not they really understand everything that they do. It's hard to imagine that they would be able to develop and produce new weapons and equipment if all they had was pseudo-religious rituals, but at the same time any real knowledge just seems so scarce or so limited. When you consider how stagnant technological development has been in the last 10,000 years, it's a little easier to believe that they really are operating on a more or less random lets-try-this system of development, as opposed to real knowledge. I guess that the slow pace might simply be because the number of people with actual knowledge is very small (the elite of  the Techpriests) and that limits innovation.

There seems to be a lot of contradiction, too. You have ranking members of the Imperium that seem to operate entirely in ignorance, and hive gangers that put together weaponry and equipment on their own. Who knows.

[Kage2020]

I don't doubt they know how to mimic the technology, but they don't TRULY grasp it...Think of it like this,   Roman Age metal workers knew how to forge Iron,  but they didn't really understand what was going on like we do now.   They knew that day was 24hrs,  but not really why,  it didn't matter.

I think that misses part of the point with reference to the example that you use.  The Romans were quite capable of understanding the process behind iron forging, the human body, etc., even if it is not one that we would consider scientifically valid given our current approach in Western Science.  Just because a fever was seen as an expression of 'fire' in the blood rather than the actions of pathogens, etc., doesn't make the result any less valid.

So, ix-nay on the whole "It's science, Jim, but not as we know it.  So, erm, it's not science."

With that said, you do have a point with regards to the fact that the knowledge is going to be explained in a necessarily different way.  For me?  I think that one could take a look at a number of different sources, of which the most influential for me would be the 'Technomages' from the Babylon 5 TV show.  Mixed with the specific imagery of the 40k universe it makes a far more dynamic and interesting Tech Priest.

...for those of you wondering what an Archailect is, it's basically a collective artificial intelligence that has transcended it's origins becoming a self-aware femtotech (quantum) entity. So while it's origins are 'mechanical' and A.I. form a part of it, it also exists independently.

As mentioned above, given the 'psychic' component of most deities in the 40k universe (we're talking the warp here, obviously) the expression of the Machine God out of the Holy Altar system is very appropriate...

Im kind of torn on whether or not they really understand everything that they do. It's hard to imagine that they would be able to develop and produce new weapons and equipment if all they had was pseudo-religious rituals...

The problem here is that for many people the association of 'religion' with 'technology' is not possible, thus a 'religious' approach to technology must necessarily translate to smoke and mirrors.  This is, for me, obviously not the case.  Similarly this is compounded by the slaving of the image to the STC, creating more of a red herring situation than not.

The adeptus mechanicus covets knowledge, of which machinery is but a physical expression.  Knowledge. 

...but at the same time any real knowledge just seems so scarce or so limited.

I would have to question that statement.

When you consider how stagnant technological development has been in the last 10,000 years...

I prefer to see the adeptus mechanicus as on a technological plateau...

You have ranking members of the Imperium that seem to operate entirely in ignorance, and hive gangers that put together weaponry and equipment on their own. Who knows.

That is what we like to call the "Rule of Cool" operating...

Kage

[Endymion]

The problem here is that for many people the association of 'religion' with 'technology' is not possible, thus a 'religious' approach to technology must necessarily translate to smoke and mirrors.  This is, for me, obviously not the case.  Similarly this is compounded by the slaving of the image to the STC, creating more of a red herring situation than not.

The adeptus mechanicus covets knowledge, of which machinery is but a physical expression.  Knowledge.

You're right, Im exhibiting a bias here. Thank you for pointing that out. I think that part of the reason this seperation occurs is because the technology is not always covered in the same terms. For example, I flip to the back of my codex and there is a discussion of Eldar weaponry by an Imperial scholar that sounds like it might be written today. There isn't any mention of machine spirits or religious questions; if the whole framework of technology was understood through the religion, shouldn't alien technology be viewed in the same light? Its not limited to alien stuff though. I have one page where the functioning of the Leman Russ is discussed in completely mundane, engineering terms (barring the fabricated units and components). And in another, the functioning of a device is treated as an occult ritual. The inconsistency makes it seem as if the religion is purely to mask the aspects of technology they use and do not understand, even if that isn't the case.   

I would have to question that statement.

Reconsidered, and withdrawn. I don't think I had thought it through adequately.

[Zzarchov]

ok,  in simple less obfuscated terms then.

 Science,  as we know it, thus the definition of science, Is based on the principle that if 1 + 1 = 2,  1 + 1 will ALWAYS equal 2.  Thus we can build upon previous knowledge and viola, science.   We can use a scientific method, and know the results are reproducable.

  The imperium doesn't work that way.  They don't think,  1 + 1 =2 because I can do this experiment a thousand times and have it work out the same.   They think  1 + 1 = 2 because that is how it is written.  That makes it a religion instead of a science.  If tommorow someone here said 1 + 1 = 2.0001 and look i can prove it,  it would change how we think,  we would have a new understanding, we would know how that would effect everything we've done before almost instantly and be able to improve things.  In 40K if someone said 1 + 1 = 2.0001 and look i can prove it,  They would burn him at the stake for preaching heresy and blaspheming against "established fact", If it ever became accepted they would have no idea what to do about it.   An open mind is a fault in the imperium, and curiosity a sin.  Thus there is no science,  they don't understand why things work,  just that if you copy this design it SHOULD work (unless machine spirits will it not too with their unholy screech of Error 404, gun targetting file not found).   That doesn't mean they don't know the penetrating power of a lascannon (as it is written for them),  or that they don't know the Horsepower in a leman russ engine (also written for them).  But if you gave them a completely new technology, they would never be able to fathom how it works or replicate it (how many times have they come in contact with eldar weaponry?  and they can't replicate it yet? Its been 10,000 years!).

   Any advances they do make are with an almost Alchemical trial and error method (Does it work if I add a pie to the warp core? No..what about if I tape a duck to my foot?  no?  what if I add nuclear waste to the floor..nuclear waste solves everything!  No?).  And as such travels at a snails pace.