Topic: Eldar law enforcement...

[Flash_hound]

Thrawn: Eldar are NOT stuck to the path they choose, quite the contrary, one eldar will experience many paths in there life.  An exarch is somone who is STUCK ON THERE PATH.  Which would make me assume that not every other eldar is stuck on there path.  This is why I said that being on a path is not a definitive thing.

[Lomendil]

Thrawn wasn't saying that they are stuck on the Path, rather that Eldar are highly dedicated to their chosen Path, which is true. Eldar don't bumble around life randomly changing Paths at whim, having breakfast as a Bonesinger and sitting down to dinner at the end of the day as a Shining Spear. The Paths are designed to be routes towards perfection, and require dedication. Eldar do change Paths, but when they have attained a high degree in expertise in their current Path. Exarchs and the like are those who become too obsessed with their Path and can never leave it.

On 'love'... Eldar strive to keep their emotions under control. I'm not saying they are Vulcan-like, as they certainly are not, but they do try to control their feelings, not have their emotions in charge of them. Seems to me that a powerful surge of emotion beyond the ability of an individual to control would be a common cause of crime on Craftworlds. Bear in mind that I think Craftworld crime is extremely rare, so I'm not saying Eldar flip out often - just that when it does happen, this is the most likely cause.

[Flash_hound]

I know, thats why it would be so terrible to be put off the path, you would be seperated from somthing that you were dedicated to for a crime, that might have just been an emotional surge.  I'm pretty sure eldar, unless in war, would never kill other eldar.

[Lomendil]

I'm not so sure about that. 'Never' is very absolute, 'extremely rarely' strikes me like it would be more accurate IMHO. It's bound to have happened at least once since the Fall on some Craftworld somewhere. We're talking about billions of individuals here, so even if it were a 1 in 100 Million chance it would have happened dozens of times. If an Eldar's emotions get the better of them and they aren't acting rationally, who can say what would happen?

[Kage2020]

How are you supposed to "put an eldar off the Path"?  Do you walk up to them and go, "Nope, you're banned from flower arranging for the next two centuries"?  The Path is as much about internal mastery as anything else, the determination as to when an eldar leaves the Path determined by the individual themselves not some form of tribunal.  Or so it would seem.  How do you stop a person on a Path that they set themselves?

Kage

[Lomendil]

  How do you stop a person on a Path that they set themselves?

Imprison them, or deny them access to the resources they'd need for the Path. I don't think that would be the Eldar's style though. If anything they ('they' being whoever it is deals with the miscreant) would be more likely to encourage a deeper dedication to the miscreant's current Path, something for the miscreant to channel all their energies into and focus upon. That's exactly what the Paths are for after all - a source of stability and focus that curbs the wilder excesses of Eldar emotion and desire for sensation.

[Kage2020]

But to do so you would also have to imprison the mind such that it could not follow the Path 'internally'.  You cannot stop the 'Banshee' from practising the forms in their head, or from tensing their muscles in isometric exercises... From the painter creating images on the tapestries of their mind.  Everything else is but a trapping...

Kage

[Lomendil]

I suppose - but you would certainly be restricting them a lot all the same, a punishment in itself. While I'm sure Eldar imagination and mental visualization is much sharper than that of humans, it is still no substitute for the real thing.

It's possible the prisoner could be psychically 'linked' up to the Infinity Circuit, where spirits would continually recount specially chosen stories and memories to them. It would be hard to concentrate on mental Banshee forms when a dozen spirits are projecting the memories of centuries spent on a different Path into the prisoner's mind.

I don't think the Eldar would do it though. It seems to me that a fundamental of the Path system is that a Path is chosen by the individual. Just kicking an Eldar off his Path strikes me as cruel and too crude for Eldar. I think they'd certainly attempt to rehabilitate a criminal, and if that failed, then there would be 'punishment' - exile, permanent benign imprisonment, or possibly even death. The 'punishment' wouldn't be designed to convince the criminal of the errors of his/her ways, but rather to remove their disruptive influence from Craftworld society.

[Flash_hound]

Well I guys I should reclarify, when I said, "kick off the path there on," it would depend on the crime.  If they wern't excepting the path anyway, they wouldn't care to be kicked off.  You know?

[SkavenGuard]

Well this topic has changed slightly.

I suppose since the arguement is that eldar have a ordered society in part due to the Path systems, this thread has not deviated too far from the main topic. 

I have been rereading the 2nd codex and found a source for WD 127.  It would seem a lot of material was written of the WD article that has been copied and clip many times.

The Path is something the eldar created to prevent their over indulgence of the past.  This Path system is to protect eldar individuals and communities in large.  As such why would any eldar be kicked out of a path.  Assuming that it is possible, wouldn't that be like telling an eldar, hope your soul is consummed by the great enemy.

A lot of the fluff and stories have farseers very active in leading their craft worlds  and armies.  This is the source of some the confusion.  There is very little mention on any other leaders.  Except in the story of the Doom of the Eldar which mentions a council being called.

Of course, since we're actually discussing the 'fluff' it behoves us to actually cross-correlate it as much as possible.  Why would an individual who is entirely subsumed by the study of psychic powers and the scrying of the dendritic nature of future potential be concerned with the day-to-day governance of a society?  (Incidentally, I still argue that eldar society is for the most part 'self-governing' so it's not as if they have to make continual sequences of decisions akin to politicians in the 'real world'.) 

Define self-governing.  Anything that is claims to be self-governing still has a figure head or governing council that meets from time to time. Farseers are those who understand well the art of divination.  They use this power to guide the eldar race to a better future.  In the codex the farseers are always leading the army.  Thus Farseers do participated in make important decisions.  Would not a farseer thus be important in making government decisions for the eldar.  WD127 says as much. 

Thus with Farseers.  In the same way that 'Exarch' is a genericl title that doesn't tell you whether the individual is a Howling Banshee  or a Dire Avenger Exarch, 'Farseer' doesn't actually tell you anything about the origin or type of the 'Farseer'. 

Yes, there are different path of the seer.  This is spelled out in WD127.  What is not certain is if Farseer is the equivalent of Exarch.  It is a good assumption. 

... actually become the equivalent of Menshad Korum.  That is to say that they cycle through the Ways of the Path of the Seer rather than being aspected by a particular Way.  This type of individual is someone that I would definitely see as being far more 'balanced' and capable of leadership, but also one of the rarest types of 'Farseer'.

Where did you get the MENSHAD KORUM from?  Next question how can a Farseer who is lock on a particualar path of Seer cycle through any other paths.

[Kage2020]

Well this topic has changed slightly.

Slightly, but the main reason is that the 'fluff' is initself fragmentary and therefore subject to overlaps as people try to explain certain phenomenon.

I have been rereading the 2nd codex and found a source for WD 127.

Darn, I thought that I had posted the link?  Well, just for everyone else (in case) you should check out this link. 

It would seem a lot of material was written of the WD article that has been copied and clip many times.

Normally into other GW publications with a minimum of effort.  The joys of recycling.  If only the context remained the same...

The Path is something the eldar created to prevent their over indulgence of the past.

That Path in terms of just dedication to a single 'thing' at a given time is not, however, sufficient.  But maybe that's just me.

Assuming that it is possible, wouldn't that be like telling an eldar, hope your soul is consummed by the great enemy.

Hence the aversion to it.  The destruction of the soul could be an ultimate punishment, but the eldar are not stupid.

Define self-governing.  Anything that is claims to be self-governing still has a figure head or governing council that meets from time to time.

Call it an opt-in representative democracy then.  Whatever term you want to use.  'Social status' is elective, based upon the assumption of personal responsibility and peer consensus, even if not total.

Farseers are those who understand well the art of divination.  They use this power to guide the eldar race to a better future.

The art of divination doesn't make you a leader.  It gives you the information that can help in the determination of policy but does not necessarily give you the ability to determine that policy.  Indeed, this is stated somewhat less clearly in WD127. 

In the codex the farseers are always leading the army.

See the above for a tempered rationalisation that is based upon the premise that GW is not only unconcerned with the specifics of the 'fluff' but also commonly represents the 'fluff' from a rather limited perspective, even when that perspective is 'eldar'.  I believe that in some circumstances the 'Farseers' can be said to lead the army, but you would have to be a fool to put a 'political' leader in charge of strategic decisions.  Well, that or American.  (Sorry, couldn't resist Dubya... and only kidding, kinda, anyway... )

And with a 'Farseer' as they are commly represented?  How can any 'truth' that they may have seen hold given the rapidly changing situation of the 'future' especially when they more commonly deal with long-term futures?

Again, hence the suggestion of the 'Battleseer' as an aspected 'paramount practitioner' of the Way of the Warlock.

Thus Farseers do participated in make important decisions.

You will not that is not questioned.  But I also do not overemphasise this suggestion.  Hence the triumvirate Council system...

Would not a farseer thus be important in making government decisions for the eldar.  WD127 says as much. 

To reiterate, they are a part of the government procedure.  They are not all of that procedure.

Yes, there are different path of the seer.

This is where the confusion of the 'fluff' doesn't help.  To prevent confusion I utilise two terms.  Firstly, the Path refers to a broad category (Warrior, Seer) while the 'Way' refers to a sub-category in the Path.  Thus you are in the Path of the Warrior, but the Way of the Striking Scorpion.  This presents a horrendously amount of trouble.

Thus, for me, there is only one Path of the Seer.

What is not certain is if Farseer is the equivalent of Exarch.  It is a good assumption.

Actually, it is not an assumption:

FARSEERS

After a number of years Seers usually pass on to some other life to continue their exploration of the rich possibilities of the Eldar Path. *** However, a Seer can give up the endless cycle of the Eldar Path and instead become a Farseer. Once an Eldar becomes a Farseer he is trapped upon the Witch Path and unable to change his future role. He uses his remaining years to learn and explore more about psychic power.*** Farseers spend much of their time casting the Seer Runes and making endless calculations and prognostications, trying to guide the fortunes of the Craftworld and anticipate any future difficulties. Because the calculations of the Farseers may be based upon predicted events happening hundreds of years in the future, their immediate effect is rather hard to determine. *** However, the Eldar consider Farseers to be a vital part of their Craftworld, basing all of their political decisions around their predictions.***

*** The Eldar Army is sometimes accompanied by a single Farseer - more cannot be spared from their task of guiding the future of the Craftworld. *** Their powers are greater even that those of the Warlocks but are mostly concentrated on casting the Seer Runes to determine courses of action which will be most fortunate for the army.

For your convenience I have emphasised (*** text ***) some appropriate sections.

Where did you get the MENSHAD KORUM from?

Check out WD127 and do a search on "Menshad".  You'll find it under "Exarchs and their Warrior Aspects".

Next question how can a Farseer who is lock on a particualar path of Seer cycle through any other paths. 

They are locked on a Way in the Path of the Seer unless they are the equivalent of Menshad Korum in which case they would cycle through the Ways of the Path of the Seer but otherwise remain fixed to the Path of the Seer...

Kage

[SkavenGuard]

To Kage

I'm to lazy to do the quote thing, so here is rambling response to your post....

I suppose this entire debate boils down to the idea of the Eldar Path. 
I have looked up the Menshad Korudm,  it looks like it is only mentioned in WD127 and then dropped. You have introduce a new term here with the eldar 'WAY'. It was known that each path could have different aspects, you have simply named them the 'WAY'.  Using that term, I was always under the assumption that and eldar would choose a a Path and then get specific and choose a 'WAY'.  And occasionally would become locked on a 'WAY' they where stuck.  Apparently an eldar can be stuck on a Path but switch 'WAYs'.  Thus you get the comparisson of Farseer to Exarch.  This, as far as I know, is only mentioned in WD127.

It has been stated in the fluff that there are several paths : seer, warrior, outcast to name a few.  It have been implied that there are other mundane paths, like sculpter, cook, candle stick maker.

This vageness of the path system does not convince me that any eldar criminal who just choose the eldar Path of Outcast and leave. Would not the crime of not following a path be possible?  What forces and eldar to choose?  Is it simply the are taught, take a Path or got to hell... and they don't question??  Many religions on earth have commandments or rules, and failure to obey those rules can lead to hell or equivalent.  And there are examples of murders and theives that have been taught one of those religions.

The more I read the more vage this Path business becomes.  And how does the Path system affect eldar emotions.  Eldar do have strong emotions.  They don't suppress their emotions like Vulcan, but must control them some how. It was part of their run away emotions that created slaanessh.  Could over emotions be a crime?  Can uncontrolled emotions be a crime?


For Redwall....

[Kage2020]

I'm to lazy to do the quote thing, so here is rambling response to your post....

Ah the joys of Ctrl-V...

I have looked up the Menshad Korudm,  it looks like it is only mentioned in WD127 and then dropped.

Even the most flagrant of revisionism of the 'fluff' has 'fluff' only updated when it is directly contradicted...   It also serves to actually explain many of the potential contradictions.  Revising this because of a lack of mention is like a painter throwing away his paint brush.  Yes, there might be easier ways of doing it, but they are normally a tad more contrived and, if you are to look at some of the modern approaches to artwork, a tad more messy...

You have introduce a new term here with the eldar 'WAY'.

In the quick look I couldn't find it, but I'm almost entirely sure that the term Way has been used in the 'fluff'.  Even if not, broad categorisation is an interesting and inclusive mechanic which prevents many of the vagaries of the 'fluff', e.g. the ludicrous idea that the Aspects are completely separate in their approach.  For example, it is the Path of the Warrior and the Path of the Dire Avenger?  No, but they get around that with the term Aspect. 

So, new term?  I don't think so.  Regardless it makes sense and is not a real reason for contradiction.  Well, too much anyway...

It was known that each path could have different aspects, you have simply named them the 'WAY'.

To be pedantic, only the Path of the Warrior had different Aspects.  While there were indeed different 'aspects' to the Paths it made a sense to formalise it under a different name: tao.  Something more than a career, which is how it is often represented (i.e. Farseers, though less career now and more 'birth right').

It has been stated in the fluff that there are several paths : seer, warrior, outcast to name a few.  It have been implied that there are other mundane paths, like sculpter, cook, candle stick maker.

Please do not mistake the fact that I integrate some of the Path or discard some of the randomness out of it that I am necessarily unaware of the 'fluff'.

This vageness of the path system does not convince me that any eldar criminal who just choose the eldar Path of Outcast and leave.

No, that is based merely upon the premise that, again, society can entrench law.  That, indeed, such a premise is a caricature of modern society and that the rest of the paraphenalia is based on keeping a somewhat parasitic, self-perpetuating and otherwise relatively useless career in such high-paid and supposed 'professional' positions.

Would not the crime of not following a path be possible?

By not only Thematic Army but also reasoned consideration?  No, not really.

Is it simply the are taught, take a Path or got to hell... and they don't question??  Many religions on earth have commandments or rules, and failure to obey those rules can lead to hell or equivalent.

I would argue that considering the Path as a religion is a fundamental mistake.

The more I read the more vage this Path business becomes.

Strange, it's the opposite of me.  The more I look at the later 'fluff' the more vague it becomes, mostly because the authors don't seem to know the basic information and haven't spent the time thinking about it.

And how does the Path system affect eldar emotions.  Eldar do have strong emotions.  They don't suppress their emotions like Vulcan, but must control them some how.

That is, indeed, a part of the Path.  For me.  Indeed, a fundamental part of which the expression of Paths and Ways is but a part.

Could over emotions be a crime?  Can uncontrolled emotions be a crime?

Even though it is later 'fluff', uncontrolled emotions are considered more a faux pas.

Kage

[SkavenGuard]

In the quick look I couldn't find it, but I'm almost entirely sure that the term Way has been used in the 'fluff'. 

Well I have never heard the term Way used before.  Then again I didn't hear the term Menshad korum before you mentioned it earlier.

(i.e. Farseers, though less career now and more 'birth right').

What do you mean Farseers more birth right?  An eldar is not born into the roll Farseer, but choose that fate.  Okay technically an eldar chooses the seer path.  Then fate, luck, interest, or something causes them to be locked on that path.

It has been stated in the fluff that there are several paths : seer, warrior, outcast to name a few.  It have been implied that there are other mundane paths, like sculpter, cook, candle stick maker.

Please do not mistake the fact that I integrate some of the Path or discard some of the randomness out of it that I am necessarily unaware of the 'fluff'.

At no time was I trying to imply that you are unawar of the fluff.  If you look carefully, You can see that some of my statements are rushed.  Some statements I put down because my fingers are typing faster than my brain is thinking.  As such discussing a facet of the eldar path and blurted out different path.  That and I wanted to say candle stick maker

I would argue that considering the Path as a religion is a fundamental mistake.

Nobody said the path was religion, but merely comparable to the ten commandments or other such religious taboous.  Although religion can be said to impart society values, morales and even rules (ten commandments).  Being that the path, as you believe, prevents crime, imposes a social order and is protection against slannessh (eldar equivalent of hell) why not make the comparison of religion.  That and recently a fellow gamer after playing Dawn of War commented that eldar look like their religious.  So the idea is stuck in my mind.

The more I read the more vage this Path business becomes.

Strange, it's the opposite of me.  The more I look at the later 'fluff' the more vague it becomes, mostly because the authors don't seem to know the basic information and haven't spent the time thinking about it.

The information printed in the fluff about Path buisness, as you have stated, is geared towards the wargaming aspect.  Well what of the non-military eldar?  Can and eldar be stuck on the candle stick maker path every be a guardian?  Or Uthwe Black Guardian?  How do the Black guardians fit in with the path?  Each aspect warrior has a shrine to teach them.  The seers have the crystal doom that some or all have access to.  Warlocks can go back to their aspect warrior shrine to get their battle armor (or helment).  So do candle stick makers have a guild or shrine?  Do these guilds also maintain armor for eldar to serve as guardians?  Are their different 'WAYs' to be an outcast?  Does an eldar have to ask to join a shrine or guild?  Are eldar free to choose what ever path they want or are they directed in some way? To leave a path, is it because they are bored?  If they master the path are the automatically locked into it?  These and other questions are the reason I say this Path Business gets vage. 

And how does the Path system affect eldar emotions.  Eldar do have strong emotions.  They don't suppress their emotions like Vulcan, but must control them some how.

That is, indeed, a part of the Path.  For me.  Indeed, a fundamental part of which the expression of Paths and Ways is but a part.

Is there a serperate system of the Path that just covers emotions.  Does an eldar sit around and say this decade I will investigate all the aspects of happiness emotion?  If so, I don't want to be around the one who experiences saddness.

For Redwall

[Kage2020]

Well I have never heard the term Way used before.

That's okay.  I still am not entirely familiar with the 'letter of the law' of some of the new 'fluff', though it doesn't tend to be too dissimilar as long as you know the old 'fluff' and take things with a pinch of salt. 

What do you mean Farseers more birth right?  An eldar is not born into the roll Farseer, but choose that fate.

Glad you put in the later caveat, but the new 'fluff' seems to be moving to an interpretation of the Farseers as some form of 'mageocracy', i.e. an autocracy created from 'mages'/Farseers.  Put another way, they are "born with the gift", a feature which I find mildly annoying when take to the extremes that it often is.  (Although it is perfectly integrateable into that which already exists...)

If you look carefully, You can see that some of my statements are rushed.

Then we are both knowing roughly where we're standing... Oh the joys!

Nobody said the path was religion...

Yet 'pilgrimage' is more valid than tourism, despite the fact that there are no religious or particular significance to the journey (or not necessarily so)...?

...but merely comparable to the ten commandments or other such religious taboous.

Which was, if you can remember, one of the original points of the thread, e.g. the inherently imbedded nature of 'law' if one removes the parasitic middle-men.

Being that the path, as you believe, prevents crime...

There has been a misunderstanding.  I said that society is law and that it is the imbedded nature of law that prevents crime.  The Path is a part of this system such that someone who is 'criminal', i.e. finds the restrictions of eldar society as too imposing, remove themselves on something which happens to be a Path.  (Although there is nothing to stop them becoming an Exodite or Dark Eldar).

imposes a social order and is protection against slannessh (eldar equivalent of hell) why not make the comparison of religion.

Because it is not about religion, necessarily the adoption of something on a given amount of faith.  The eldar know the 'truth' about Slaanesh, that their souls will be consumed if they are not careful, and that the Path is there to protect them.

Well what of the non-military eldar?  Can and eldar be stuck on the candle stick maker path every be a guardian?

There are two broad arguments about the other Paths, which I categorise into Seeker, Steward and Outcast.  The first states that only the Warrior and the Seer are sufficiently 'intense' enough to get trapped upon, which I find a horrendous cop-out.  The other says that one can be trapped upon any Way or Path and, indeed, that they are roughly analogous in form (i.e. there is a Way-dedicated individual as well as the rarer Path-dedicated).

Or Uthwe Black Guardian?  How do the Black guardians fit in with the path?

They are Guardians, first and foremost.  Formalisation into 'houses', actually an idea espoused by someone on this forum, pretty much solves the problem.  I would imagine that, like the Warlocks, they have a 'sub-Path'.  Heck, even the Aspect Warriors do this...

Some would say, however, that it is a mistake and is arguably just what GW considered to be a 'cool' addition.

The seers have the crystal doom that some or all have access to.

Though that has little to do with the tuition of Seers...

So do candle stick makers have a guild or shrine?

One need not have centralised study, nor even an instructor or 'master', to follow the Path.

Are their different 'WAYs' to be an outcast?

For me?  Always torn by that but I would say 'no'.

Does an eldar have to ask to join a shrine or guild?

Shrines are specific to the Aspect Warriors, so yes for them.  There are no guilds, though.

Are eldar free to choose what ever path they want or are they directed in some way?

I would say that they can select what Path they will.  Some, however, believe that a Farseers direct an individual to take up a Path.  Generally speaking these are the same individuals who believe that that Farseers (and Seers generally) run every aspect of government.

To leave a path, is it because they are bored?

A Path is walked to 'perfection'.

If they master the path are the automatically locked into it?

Nope, not at all.  Mastership tends to end the Path. 

These and other questions are the reason I say this Path Business gets vage.

It just means looking to the 'fluff' for the answers or, at least, inferences to those answers.

Is there a serperate system of the Path that just covers emotions.

The Path is all about the control of eldar mind-body (neuro)biochemistry.  It's not just about perfection, but about the stabilisation and integration of those emotions into a holistic experience thereby going some way to explaining the mercurial nature of the eldar.  Well, for me, anyway.

Kage

[SkavenGuard]

Well we have talked a lot about eldar path and a bit about eldar society. 
Some one should put all this together for future reference.  Something to put into eldar fluff section of the eldar online, if it ever gets back up.


For Redwall...

[Kage2020]

Well we have talked a lot about eldar path and a bit about eldar society. 
Some one should put all this together for future reference.  Something to put into eldar fluff section of the eldar online, if it ever gets back up.

I call it the "Eldar Sourcebook" and, as mentioned previously, Tir'asur is considered a small fragment of it!

Kage

[SkavenGuard]

Well we have talked a lot about eldar path and a bit about eldar society. 
Some one should put all this together for future reference.  Something to put into eldar fluff section of the eldar online, if it ever gets back up.

I call it the "Eldar Sourcebook" and, as mentioned previously, Tir'asur is considered a small fragment of it!

Kage

I would be interested in reading this "Eldar Source Book".  Especially since you have deminstarted a good deal of reasoning behind what is fluffy.

[Kage2020]

I would be interested in reading this "Eldar Source Book".  Especially since you have deminstarted a good deal of reasoning behind what is fluffy.

All I need is some darned good artists to help me visualise some of the stuff...   But it might contain too much 'heretical' RPG material for some... <sigh>

Kage