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Author Topic: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?  (Read 393 times)

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Offline Kage2020

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Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« on: November 13, 2021, 07:53:06 PM »
My intent her is not to start an edition war, if such a thing happens in 40k forums as it does in RPG ones about the various editions of D&D. Rather, after reading through the comments about the latest edition (etc.) in the 40k Player Survey thread someone note that rather than keeping up with the "newest of the new" it might be more beneficial to use an older edition to teach my son the ropes of the game.

So, this thread. I want to teach my son how to play 40k and, to be fair, the last time that I played 40k was perhaps the second edition. Maybe. Not sure. I was still using the rules in WD127 for Eldar as they had not been superseded at that time.

I don't want things to be too simple, so a balance of tactical rules that aren't overly complex would seem fine (? -- certainly not those wonky rules for vehicles that I remember with transparent overlays).

Any suggestions?

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2021, 07:56:47 PM »
This was my idea so I'm not against it, obviously, just be prepared that teaching in the older editions may involve a massive whiplash when trying to update later on. Also known as the You beslubbering What? syndrome.
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2021, 08:35:48 PM »
Wouldn't base 9th edition (without updates) or just reverting to base 8th edition work fine? Or am I just hopelessly naive?

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2021, 08:44:02 PM »
My thought is that you'll have issues with some current models and units not having rules in order editions (if you're interested in the kits). Finding the rules can be difficult too.

Also, if you're worried about following balance updates enough to play an older edition, just ignore them and play whats in the codex and core rulebook, and ignore everything else.

9th edition is the easiest edition to learn to play. The rules are much more streamlined then previous editions, and there isn't the pages of obscure keywords and small specific rules older editions needed you to learn.

There are supplements, campaign books, and stuff like that which adds more options and stuff for folks to play with, but all of that completely optional.

Faqs and erratas are good for the health of the game, but you and your son can just ignore that too for simplicity.

If if is just the two if you playing, you can use, or not use, any rules you want.

Also, 9th edition has Crusade, which is an incredibly fun way to play 40k, and a great way to play 40k, and a great way to slow grow armies to learn the game with.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2021, 09:55:34 PM »
I will second playing Crusade rules and using Power Levels (instead of points). The game only becomes unwieldy when you try to keep up with what is going on, so the solution is not to care and just play with what you have--that's what Narrative Play is for, so go for it.

Offline Kage2020

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2021, 01:45:17 AM »
This was my idea so I'm not against it...
Stew in your creative juices for giving me ideas and questions! ;)

Wouldn't base 9th edition (without updates) or just reverting to base 8th edition work fine? Or am I just hopelessly naive?
I cannot answer either of those questions, but FWIW (or at least as far as I know), I do have materials from 9e through Warhammer+. Perhaps that shuts down the conversation as I had otherwise completely forgotten about that.

Also, 9th edition has Crusade, which is an incredibly fun way to play 40k, and a great way to play 40k, and a great way to slow grow armies to learn the game with.
Guess I've got something else to look up? :)

I will second playing Crusade rules and using Power Levels (instead of points). The game only becomes unwieldy when you try to keep up with what is going on, so the solution is not to care and just play with what you have--that's what Narrative Play is for, so go for it.
I understand this on the face of it, but I guess that's more research once again?

Offline magenb

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2021, 06:24:33 AM »
OK, so each edition has its pro's and cons.

2nd and 3rd edition were really more about squad combat rather than army wide combat, so the rules can get bloated if you try to up scale the games.

4th edition was very gamy, and close combat armies could rick roll through you.

I would recommend 5th edition. The rules are not overly complicated, but some people are unhappy with the way close combat works in the charge phase. A quick fix is both players do d6 + I. There is still cheese, but its easy to spot now and stay away from. 5th also has a lot of extra material, different game modes, campaigns, etc

6th edition is 5th edition with some tweaks, more units and some very weird point values (like the wraithknight and scatter laser bikes) for some units, they also introduced allies, DON'T use allies if you want a decent game.

7th is where things went nuts, still playable, more tweaks over 6th, more consistent point value, but stay away from allies and formations, there is still obvious cheesy BS, like flying demon princes with 2+ rerollable saves that can body swap with another demon...

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Rules, current vs older...
Generally speaking
The "core" rules in 8/9 are straight forward, but has a TONE of "special" rules that have no uniformity. Then you have the complexity of strats and having to remember to use the right ones at the right time. Easier to learn the basics, how you move is far less important, it is far more important to use the right strat at the right time.


Older edition had more rules for the core mechanics. but had universal special rules. It takes a little more time to get the "basic" rules down, but its really not that hard to learn... Actual tactics matter, positioning matters, firing arcs. This to me makes it a better game as thing you control matter more and there is a big emphasis on risk vs reward, which also makes it more exciting for me.


It is fairly easy to get hold of older editions books, facebook has dedicated 2nd hands sales groups, some international some country specific. If you get desperate you can find digital versions of most books.



Power levels... are not balanced, if they were they use it for tourney's, its not a bad way to play though, it is easier to make lists, etc.


9th without updates... no, you really can't play it that way. Some codexes are super unbalanced, like dark eldar and Admech, you need the updates. Also I have tried to play it with out strats, it is more fun, but it hurts some armies alot.

Read a campaign book from a previous edition and then look at 8th/9ths version of it, they are basically pamphlets once you take out all the reprinted lore and rules. So yeah, they technically have it, just don't expect much from them.





So, my group is older, we tend to play the older editions, not out of familiarity, we give the editions a fair go, and settled on 5th. We do see other people playing the new editions having dummy spits, generally when they are playing a random person in store. When you can see how easy it is to apply over whelming fire power, we can't really blame them, there really is something that doesn't feel fair about the game. For me I think the lack of risk vs reward is where it comes from, in older editions if you wanted to do something powerful it usually had a risk of going wrong, like deep striking.

While the new editions are not the right fit for me, I would still encourage you to play both the newer editions and at least 5th ed so you have something to compare it to.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2021, 07:25:10 AM »

Guess I've got something else to look up? :)


It's all in the 9th edition core rulebook, and each 9th edition codex has flavourful crusade additions for your army. I've played a lot of 9th edition 40k, none has been more fun than crusade. It starts at 25pl (roughly 500pts), so it's a great way to start playing small quick games to learn the rules, and expand slowly as you recruit new units into your crusade roster.

Can't recommend it enough, and it's probably the perfect thing for you and your son.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2021, 08:53:42 AM »
I know I'm strange, but of all the editions, I thought 6th was the closest to the "ideal," barring a couple issues.

5th was awesome, but vehicles were too hard to put down, which made things really awkward. 6th balanced that out with Hull Points, which I thought was a good system. All it really needed was some minor tweaks and it would have worked great. Instead, we got the bloated nonsense that was 7th edition--the edition of a thousand campaign books.

Most people hated 6th, though, mostly because a few codexes were wildly unbalanced and the allies system was straight-up broken.

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2021, 09:53:58 AM »
6th edition was my favourite and the one that I thought was most straight forward, as long as you avoided using allies, which really broke the game mechanics in my opinion. I'm a huge fan of Universal Special Rules, as it made it far easier to understand how not only your army worked, but your opponents worked as well. When we used to have to just say this unit has a 5+ Feel No Pain, each unit and stratagem now in an army has a different word for it. Makes it much more difficult to comprehend your opponents mechanics. Sure you had to remember a list of about 30 USRs, but then you would understand them for each and every army out there. Now you need to read an army's entire codex to understand their special rules.

Totally agree that there were really over powered and under powered codexes in 6th edition, but I think that was truly due to codex creep, as there were some codexes you had from as many as 2 editions ago that weren't updated yet when 6th dropped.

The latest edition can be easy to pickup, if you avoid command points and stratagems in the beginning, or at the very most only use the stratagems that all armies have access too.

I like the idea of starting with small games like crusade, but you will find a great imbalance in some armies, as a few armies greatly improve as you scale up in size and some units are just too overpowered in a small scale game.

Offline magenb

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2021, 05:18:55 PM »
5th was awesome, but vehicles were too hard to put down, which made things really awkward. 6th balanced that out with Hull Points, which I thought was a good system.

4th tanks were made of paper, 5th made them feel like tanks, but mechs with lots of guns got a significant advantage.
6th edition from memory allowed for things like tank swarms.. so tanks needed to be easier to take out. The bonus to the roll on the damage chart for AP1 and AP2 made sense, and would make thing interesting in 5th, if you find tanks are too hard to take out in 5th, try house ruling this. The glancing rules made it too easy to take tanks out (especially for Necrons), that said without it tank swarms would have been brutal, but not every army could do that, so its a mixed bag.

That said, battle focus from 6th was AMAZING as it made them feel closer to the lore.



Most people hated 6th, though, mostly because a few codexes were wildly unbalanced and the allies system was straight-up broken.

Tau-Dar for the win ;)


I like the idea of starting with small games like crusade, but you will find a great imbalance in some armies, as a few armies greatly improve as you scale up in size and some units are just too overpowered in a small scale game.

Yeah I really like the concept of the Crusade system, I was super excited about it. I spent hours play testing Orks, Blood angels, Admech and Necrons, at the start of 9th edition were fun options to play without strats and were fairly evenly matched, so they were fun games. It all fell over because someone wanted to play Chaos Marines and they just got rick rolled.


Offline Kage2020

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2021, 08:56:02 PM »
...5th was awesome, but vehicles were too hard to put down, which made things really awkward...
FWIW, back in the day with WD127-styled Eldar, the harm that I did to vehicles with a D-cannon on a platform and Eldar Warlocks was not something to be laughed at.

Sorry, it was something to be laughed at. Definitely a case of when the new flavour needed to be balanced. :D

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2021, 08:58:49 PM »
I actually find it kind of funny that people are saying 6th edition was the one they enjoyed.  Definitely viewing that with rose coloured glasses because 7th came out half-way through GWs typical edition length (2.5 years instead of 4 to 5), and it was more or less 6.5 edition.

It then became even more of a train wreck, but that's besides the point.
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2021, 10:10:29 AM »
I'm not a terribly nostalgic person. I always enjoy playing the latest version of the game. With that said, I don't look negatively on any of the older editions, I enjoyed the game in all editions of the game I played (3rd-7th). All had their strengths, all had their faults.

I find Folks definitely look favorably upon the editions they entered the game.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2021, 05:09:32 PM »
...5th was awesome, but vehicles were too hard to put down, which made things really awkward...
FWIW, back in the day with WD127-styled Eldar, the harm that I did to vehicles with a D-cannon on a platform and Eldar Warlocks was not something to be laughed at.

Sorry, it was something to be laughed at. Definitely a case of when the new flavour needed to be balanced. :D

lol, yes our D weapons still wreck stuff. As of 6th edition we got flamer version of them too ;)






Offline Kage2020

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2021, 07:24:06 PM »
I find Folks definitely look favorably upon the editions they entered the game.
That might be true, but I'm actively trying not to do that given how OP the Eldar originally were. Of course, it would be nice if they hadn't quite nerfed them so much (based upon what I'm seeing in the tutorial videos), but--hey-ho!--guess that is what makes it a challenge. Certainly, GW's definition of an "elite army" seems to be a bit wonky. ;)

That, however, is a bridge to be traversed when we get to that point.

(Though if someone ones to regale me of how the Eldar have changed over the editions in parallel to the original conversation, I would likely enjoy that.)

Offline magenb

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2021, 08:12:12 PM »
CWE have always been competitive up to 9th edition, when tough units are needed to hold objectives.

4th and 5th use the same codex, there were changes in the rules between the edition. 5th fixed issue with close combat being abusive and tanks being under whelming. Now, I have played games where a Rhino can survive tot he end, because it keeps getting stunned lol, but its rare, it is also possible to drop a tank in 1 shot, again rare. Most transports tend to live long enough to do their job.

6th, Eldar got a few new units, the wraithknight is perhaps the most undercosted, but 1 isn't a big problem. Jetbikes with Scatter lasers, can be an issue if you put too many in a list, so just don't be that guy lol.

7th, point fixes mostly.

The Avatar and Phoenix Lords are.. meh in all the editions. Farseers are you go to thing, Eldrad is always useful.

2nd and 3rd was just too long ago, Eldar were definitely strong, and you can easily find people complaining about Eldar, normally space marine players, but they seem to complain about everything, even when they are winning rolf.

Offline Kage2020

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2021, 10:32:23 PM »
I'm reticent to reply since my previous post count was a juvenile laugh-inducing "6969" (sorry).

Thanks for the information magenb. Is there any hints by people that have ears-to-the-ground as to when/if Eldar are getting some updates in terms of models?

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2021, 10:49:22 PM »
I did a quick google, and apparently there was a rumor back in september, based on some promotional images from GW (which are deliberately vague as part of their marketing strategy, btw) that there would be a new Avatar model. I'm not sure if that's been superseded and disproven, I don't know on what timescale these "rumor engine" promos work.

Offline magenb

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Re: Stable and Fun Edition of 40k?
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2021, 11:27:12 PM »
Until they announce it, it's all speculation, a leak might appear a week maybe two before they make the announcement, but no such luck as yet.

 


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