News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: (40k) Willful Ignorance  (Read 5118 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sergeant Olezka

  • Commissar
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Death solves all problems - no man, no problem.
(40k) Willful Ignorance
« on: January 27, 2009, 11:41:46 PM »
What parts of the 40k fluff to you choose to ignore? And what do you modify to fit your ideas of the setting?

For me it's the death of the Squats. Not because I particularly like the Squats, but because I like the idea that the Imperium is an 'empire of empires' with hundreds of overlapping spheres of influence. While the Imperium is presented as pretty diverse, I would like it to be more diverse and, to some degree, more divisive, with lots of rivalry among the various factions.

In that thread, I like the idea of the Mechanicus being a legitimate military power even without the Titans. I'm pretty sure that the Knight worlds and the Knights themselves were ditched in the newest editions. This is unfortunate because even though Knights have little significance outside of Epic, to me they illustrate the the sheer industrial power of the Imperium. Knight units amounted to infantry platoons. Infantry platoons of giant robots. Damn.

And lastly, the number of Space Marines. While it is firmly established that there are somewhere around a million SM's, my brain cannot fathom so few super soldiers in an empire that big. What breaks my suspension of disbelief is the fact that in a 1500 point game you can field nearly a company of marines. In the fluff, a hundred marines is a potential war winner and only utilized in desperate situations. 

I know that fluff and game balance should never be mixed, but it's hard to believe that my hundred imperial guardsmen can beat a company of SM's in a straight fight. So they must not be as powerful as there are played up to be to be in the fluff.

God damn Imperial propaganda.

So in order to rationalize this, I believe that there must be at the very least 10 million SM's. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to protect their territory and go on missions for the Imperium.

So, what do you choose to ignore?

"Fighting Chaos is a terrible task, but someone has to do it!" -unidentified Sergeant, Cadian 12th.

The thesaurus syndrome: Don't overutilize ostentatiously pretentious language to delineate the thematic observations you are endeavoring to articulate. Big words aren't impressive; a clear, direct style is.

Offline MagicJuggler

  • Juggling a load of balls
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2012
  • Country: 00
  • Nobody expects the Spanish Ynquisition.
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2009, 11:46:55 PM »
The death of the Squats. They were retconned and never given a second chance. Considering that they already have enough silly humor in Orks and Goblins, what's wrong with having a bunch of Dwarves in space? "Nobody tosses a Dwarf!"

Offline Bumbles

  • I supported No'Akei and all I got was this silly title
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2449
  • Country: au
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2009, 11:48:31 PM »
The whole Adeptus MechCAN'Ticus idea.
C'Tan did it.

Offline myles

  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2925
  • Country: 00
  • This is my game face
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2009, 12:29:00 AM »
Anything that is an epic, age-old conspiracy gets the axe in my book. Which pretty much erases the C'tan completely. Good.

Also, I pretty much ignore fluff that has Marines using bolters like someone would use an assault rifle today. I envision them as more akin to a grenade launcher, in both function and usage, and don't like the idea of marines firing bursts of shots at paltry things like IG-equivalent soldiers. If anyone could, SM would certainly have a 'one-shot one (or several) kill' approach.

Another fairly minor thing, I absolutely detest the idea that the Nicassar propel their spaceships with psychic powers. If they had psychic abilities that powerful they would either be long consumed by daemons or masters of the galaxy by now.

I know that fluff and game balance should never be mixed, but it's hard to believe that my hundred imperial guardsmen can beat a company of SM's in a straight fight. So they must not be as powerful as there are played up to be to be in the fluff.


Gotta say, this doesn't make much sense. From that perspective, would it not be just as reasonable (more so, really) to infer that your IG are overpowered on the tabletop as it would to infer that SM are overpowered in the fluff? As you said, fluff and gameplay shouldn't be mixed.

But I can agree with you that I think there are probably more than a million SM. The areas involved are just too big.

« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 12:34:56 AM by myles »
The first problem is the creation of meaningless e-personas. Such personas are undesirable because they lead users to prejudge a post and its content based on their impressions of the author. One is predisposed to criticize a perfectly legitimate comment or praise a stupid one simply because of preconceived notions about who wrote it. Anonymous posting avoids this situation by removing identity from the post, making any praise or criticism directed solely at the content.

Offline Sergeant Olezka

  • Commissar
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • Death solves all problems - no man, no problem.
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2009, 01:17:15 AM »
Gotta say, this doesn't make much sense. From that perspective, would it not be just as reasonable (more so, really) to infer that your IG are overpowered on the tabletop as it would to infer that SM are overpowered in the fluff? As you said, fluff and gameplay shouldn't be mixed.

Actually, yes. It is just as reasonable to make that statement and what I was going for. But your line of logic does make more sense.
"Fighting Chaos is a terrible task, but someone has to do it!" -unidentified Sergeant, Cadian 12th.

The thesaurus syndrome: Don't overutilize ostentatiously pretentious language to delineate the thematic observations you are endeavoring to articulate. Big words aren't impressive; a clear, direct style is.

Offline TDB

  • Lap Dancing Teasers
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2534
  • Country: au
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2009, 02:17:33 AM »
I ignore two things, the most important is that which is not internally consistent.  True, sometimes fluff will be partially inconsistent within the 40k universe in which case i will generally accept it but if it does not fit in (like the new Daemon codex) i ignore it.  The second is if fluff has no worth to the story.  It doesn't have to be great fluff but if a new version of events makes characters or a race out to be stupid i will ignore it.  If it makes a previous story bland and black and white i will ignore it.  The HHCCG is really bad for this; for example, i will not accept a version of events that removes all the decent story points of Magnus and the Emperor and replaces them with an evil childish Magnus and a schizophrenic idiot of an Emperor. 
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" Arthur C. Clarke
Is fhearr an t-olc a chluinntinn na fhaicinn (better to hear the evil than see it)

Offline Tibel

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 290
  • Country: us
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2009, 03:00:04 AM »
I will agree with most of you.  I have read fluff that didn’t make sense, or didn’t seem to be… thought through thoroughly :)  Now, with that in mind I do not consciously ignore any of the fluff.  Some of it might be contradictory, or seem otherwise incorrect, but I always remember that 99% of the fluff you read is being told from the Imperium’s point of view.  I am in no way trying to cover for GW’s oversights or errors or trying to be a fanboy, but this is how I view the fluff. 

The whole Adeptus MechCAN'Ticus idea.
C'Tan did it.

I agree… I think this fluff is horrible.  But, if you view it as a rumor, hearsay, or just crazy talk from crazy people it’s not as offensive.  In fact, it can add a certain level of “humanity” into the gargantuan story that is the 40k universe.  I know you guys are not discounting all fluff, but this is the reason many of us got involved in this hobby.  Without the fluff we would just be playing a ridiculously complicated version of chess.     
I didn't get where I am today by worrying about how I was going to feel tomorrow.

Offline Locarno

  • Ork Boy
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6488
  • Country: 00
  • Could I interest you in a small bribe?
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2009, 03:46:39 AM »
Quote
I'm pretty sure that the Knight worlds and the Knights themselves were ditched in the newest editions.

Actually knight households are in Mechanicum (and kick arse), and in the Titan Legio list for Epic: Armageddon. They've not made it into 40k proper yet (for obvious reasons) and as there's no Codex: Mechanicus there's nowhere that a reference to them really should be for it to be missing from...

What do I ignore?
As noted, a lot of the Horus Heresy Card Game stuff. Largely because it was written by people who didn't quite get the storyline, and kind of misses the point by trying to explain everything and doing it badly (see "imperial webway" - we know the great work was supposed to be crucial but it was also supposed to be urgent. And if the emperor knew what was going to happen, why let it? At the very least, a "read in case of emergency" letter to magnus along the lines of "I already know, son. Now stop faffing around trying to send me messages and go kick horus' arse" would have saved so much trouble...).

We like knowing some things won't be explained. Dark Heresy does this well - fantasy flight have all but categorically said in Disciples of the Dark Gods that they will not, ever, explain what/who the Tyrant Star actually is. It's the end of everything, but they're not going to try and explain the black dawn. You couldn't comprehend it anyway.....

Also: Anything written by C.S.Goto.
Stories to read....
Songs of Earth
The Will to Survive Series

Tervigon Army List:
Games Played: 35
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2685

Offline Khodexus

  • BANNED Spammer - Mods simply don't understand
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3795
  • I guess I'm just safest not posting anything...
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2009, 04:26:04 AM »
The only things I categorically dismiss are anything that tries to tie Commorragh Dark Eldar with Chaos.  I think almost everything else can be explained through perspective, myth, and misconception.

I think very little of the fluff is presented as "facts" but rather perceptions and myths.  And much of it is meant to be misconceptions on certain things.

In the Eldar mythic cycles, the C'tan play a very important role and the idea of "the C'tan did it" is of course going to be strong in their fluff (and the Necron's fluff).

But in the Imperial perspective, they are an anciet race of machines, mysterious, and in some cases horribly glitched, but they hardly see C'tan around every corner the way the Eldar sometimes seem to.  They barely know what the C'tan are.

So I take all fluff, even canon fluff right out of the core rule book, with a grain of salt, and recognize that it's not all even meant to be fact, but is merely meant to enhance certain points of the atmosphere, and get certain ideas and themes across.

"-That is all."
Current Projects: Necrondus – the Lost City, Codex: Dark Eldar – Revised.  C&C appreciated.

Dark Eldar Poster of the Year 009.M3 (2009)
BANNED spammer 010.M3 (2010)

Offline TDB

  • Lap Dancing Teasers
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2534
  • Country: au
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2009, 04:35:54 AM »
Quote
In the Eldar mythic cycles, the C'tan play a very important role...

That depends which version you believe, the actual mythic cycles or the mythic cycle that had the C'tan shoehorned in while completely changing the whole point of the original stories.  You'd think an Eldar myth would be like a myth, not "look how cool our new race is, just ignore logic and what came before!"
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" Arthur C. Clarke
Is fhearr an t-olc a chluinntinn na fhaicinn (better to hear the evil than see it)

Offline Rasmus

  • The Ratcatcher
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33046
  • Country: 00
  • Lost Roads are now found!
    • 40kOnline
  • Armies: Squats
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2009, 05:22:25 AM »
I'm an old-timer. I don't like fancy new things. Tau - fine, stay on your side and do whatever it is you do. Necrons - fine, Chaos Androids reworked, no issue there.

Remove the Squats - nah, I like them. And as the fluff around them "all getting eaten by nids end of story full stop" makes no sense to me, I just ignore it (see 5th Ed Squat codex in the Lost and Damned-board)

Remove Eldar Harlequins, Exodites and Pirates - but I like them. They stay.

Enter C'tan, and muck up all teh fluff - not really intersted, as the consistent fluff was out the window.

Then there are some minor blurbs, Isha "might" be alive, Marines inventing a craftworld and blowing it up, the Dark Eldar fighting with Chaos to topple the Black Library, Ghaz calling it a "draw" on Armageddon, and so on. Just leave it be, as it makes too little sense to worry about.

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

Offline One Guy with a Meltagun

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • C.A.S. - it's not just a transport, it's an AFV!
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2009, 06:26:30 AM »
The loss of entire race squat race is hard to take, especially as they had such a promising Epic Armybook  mid-nineties that would have made a powerful WH40k dex. Coupled with their fluff and the connection to Yarrick ( yes THAT Yarrick, who got taken prisoner on Golgotha while helping the Squats kick orkoid behind) they would have made powerful allies ( Land Train anyone? or a Squat Biker Brotherhood with Attack Bikes and loads of meltaguns?)

But the shame is, GW couldn't see the stunties in space, same as I can't see the hobbit/hafling/ratling subhuman with a sniper rifle. But guess what, instead of purging the records of the existence of 3 feet tall humans, i just don't use them.

One Guy

Addendum on the Tau: they had fast evolution written into their fluff to have a bit of a justification for their fledgeling state.
Addendum on Yarrick: I remember him being taken prisoner by Ghaz Thraka in the new fluff, but I conspiracy-theorize that they don't mention the squats anywhere near him
And please: Don't mention the Demiurg
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 06:30:27 AM by OneGuywithaLasgun »
It's easy to smile when you have a squirrel's intellect. - Dylan Moran

The 898th Cromaryn is now set loose on the Fiction board.

Chimera Appreciation Society - To you it's a Target, to us it's a lifestyle!

Tactica:Chimera

The Rapid Life of Rapid Fire - Mechanized Guard

Offline Locarno

  • Ork Boy
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6488
  • Country: 00
  • Could I interest you in a small bribe?
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2009, 06:34:53 AM »
Quote
Addendum on Yarrick: I remember him being taken prisoner by Ghaz Thraka in the new fluff, but I conspiracy-theorize that they don't mention the squats anywhere near him

Taken prisoner, by Thraka, after his baneblade (the fortress of arrogance) was blown up, on the 'mining world' of Golgotha. The word "squats", though, is - as you guessed - not used.

Quote
And please: Don't mention the Demiurg
Why not? They're a recognised force. If only in space.  8)



Stories to read....
Songs of Earth
The Will to Survive Series

Tervigon Army List:
Games Played: 35
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2685

Offline Jehan-Reznor

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1767
    • The Dude in Japan
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2009, 08:26:29 AM »
Like Rasmus i like the old stuff.
Beastmen should be an option in IG again and i want the SM/IG jetbikes back.

Also i based my chapter on the original Eisenstein story (in the original epic space marine rule book), meaning that a the ones who fled were not only Death guard but a mixed group of marines
"this can't be happening, Man!"
my projects;
http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=169427.0 budhhist space marines
http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=163611.0 Doombringer my space marine chapter
http://www.40konline.com/community/index.php?topic=150109.0 Hello Kitty Space Marine Army

Offline Lorizael

  • GW Shill: Infinity Circuit: Synergistic Spotter of Numpties
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6784
  • Country: 00
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2009, 10:02:38 AM »


Also: Anything written by C.S.Goto.

QFT! CS Goto can burn in hell for his heresies against the Eldar.

I'm an old timer too so a lot of the fancy new stuff is a bit irritating: Necrons and C'tan being forced into the Eldar background, the HH card game and how some stuff was changed from old canon.

Offline Droofus

  • Ork Boy
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1334
  • Country: 00
  • It is YOU who will suffer greatly!
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2009, 10:18:23 AM »
Not a whole lot.  Mostly, I choose to ignore bits of the fluff that are written to make X army seem awesome and fire up its players to buy more models.

An example would be Typhus killing an entire battle company of Cadian imperial guardsmen.  Basically, any of those little story blurbs in white dwarf that appear whenever a new army comes out.
\

Offline MagicJuggler

  • Juggling a load of balls
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2012
  • Country: 00
  • Nobody expects the Spanish Ynquisition.
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2009, 11:01:54 AM »
It seems silly that the Tau could survive and thrive overnight, and ward off the Tyranids, while the far more technically accomplished Squats perished overnight faster than you could say "A wizard did it"

Offline The GrimSqueaker

  • The Badger on the Road | Staff Infection Officer | Debased Vassal Slayer | Title Barfly | XOXOXO Gossip Girl | Bent Over
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19053
  • Country: nz
  • From the Fourth Necromantic House
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2009, 12:17:40 PM »
The Tau haven't experienced anything near the level of Tyranid action that the Squats were said to have. They're not comparable so far.
Quote from: @TracyAuGoGO
Tact is for people who are too slow witted to be sarcastic.
Drink
Knights Tippler
Quote from: Surviving the World
If you can't make fun of something, it's probably not worth taking seriously.

You have to love the smell of science in the morning. It smells of learning.... or perhaps a gas leak.

Offline Mr.Tanks

  • Grot
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1141
  • Country: gb
  • Lord Despot of Dakka.
  • Armies: The Brave & Noble Albion 212th Imperial Guard
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2009, 12:46:12 PM »
Aren't the Tau closer to the Tyranid 'invasion' than the Squats though? I seem to remember the Squats home world being closer to the galactic centre?

And bits of GW fluff I choose to ignore? Most of it, especially the C'tan and SMurf background fluff.
What I cannot crush with words, I shall crush with the tanks of the Imperial Guard!

Offline The GrimSqueaker

  • The Badger on the Road | Staff Infection Officer | Debased Vassal Slayer | Title Barfly | XOXOXO Gossip Girl | Bent Over
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19053
  • Country: nz
  • From the Fourth Necromantic House
Re: (40k) Willful Ignorance
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2009, 12:56:40 PM »
The Tyranid invasion corridors are more 3D than linear hence coming in from "up" and "down" as well as the sides.
Quote from: @TracyAuGoGO
Tact is for people who are too slow witted to be sarcastic.
Drink
Knights Tippler
Quote from: Surviving the World
If you can't make fun of something, it's probably not worth taking seriously.

You have to love the smell of science in the morning. It smells of learning.... or perhaps a gas leak.

 


Powered by EzPortal