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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Eldar AI
« Reply #20 on: December 6, 2005, 01:30:47 AM »
Quote
I must necessarily question the reliability feature, more so if you consider that glitchy game mechanic about Wraith-units needing the focus of a seer.
   That may only be true for some systems though,m under certain conditions (like battlefield-conditions, and only of a certain size) as Ghostwarriors didn't suffer from it, and neither do Wraithlords, but the Wraithguards do. The same may be assumed for other systems as well.
   However, on a craftworld or ship it would be a moot point entirely, as they would be surrounded by the Infinity Circuit and thus surrounded by the focus of the seers, and thousands of eyes and advice to help guide them.

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Offline Nimrod

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Re: Eldar AI
« Reply #21 on: December 6, 2005, 11:59:38 AM »
Quote from: Kage2020
Indeed, you mention a contemporary view of technological solutions to problems, yet also utilise a contemporary/human definition of natural.

Not really, no. I said nothing about natural, i.e., having to do with Nature. The use of "by its nature" here is a stand-in for "as a result of the way it was constructed." I can't see how that idea is merely current.

Quote from: Addinarr
[Elegance of design] will not, however, work for anything where the future situation in which the device is to be used is unknown. My example of trajectory-based weapons for example. Such a thing cannot simply aim in the correct position simply by way of how it is physically designed.

At first I felt like I needed to refute that, but I am probably just being stubborn about what constitutes a "program." I understand the point you are making: that situations which require the collecting of and reacting to various sense-data need some kind of "brain" to make them work. The plant-watering system I described before actually fits this definition -- it's just that the "brain" is intermixed with its structure rather than being a separate part. Consider also a shuriken catapult. I would say the thing is grown specifically for its function and therefore doesn't need software to make it function properly, but really it does need that minor intellignce, and the fact that its smarts are part and parcel to its construction, very likely at an atomic level, doesn't change the fact that it's there.

I still maintain the Eldar would reserve many menial tasks for themselves, because they are helpful to their spiritual growth. But by the expanding the definition of AI/robot to include things with intelligence designed into their molecules I'll allow that there are probably a lot of such helpers on a Craftworld.
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Eldar AI
« Reply #22 on: December 6, 2005, 12:15:09 PM »
Quote from: Rasmus
That may only be true for some systems though,m under certain conditions (like battlefield-conditions, and only of a certain size) as Ghostwarriors didn't suffer from it, and neither do Wraithlords, but the Wraithguards do.
And that is what makes it smack of game mechanic only.  There really is little justification for it other than as a means of limiting the effectiveness of the troop.  Although to be fair I don't have any idea about that troop effectiveness.  I just see them cropping up on 'cheesy' wargame army list threads when you take many of them, a feature that I cannot help but feel is ridiculous.

Quote from: Rasmus
However, on a craftworld or ship it would be a moot point entirely, as they would be surrounded by the Infinity Circuit and thus surrounded by the focus of the seers, and thousands of eyes and advice to help guide them.
Shading into the fact that they are being summoned from their otherworld, perhaps?  Again, is that strictly relevant?

Quote from: Nimrod
I said nothing about natural, i.e., having to do with Nature. The use of "by its nature" here is a stand-in for "as a result of the way it was constructed." I can't see how that idea is merely current.
Ah, fair enough.  My bad.  Although the example utilised was perhaps a poor one.

Quote from: Nimrod
I still maintain the Eldar would reserve many menial tasks for themselves, because they are helpful to their spiritual growth.
As stated above, I agree.

Quote from: Nimrod
But by the expanding the definition of AI/robot to include things with intelligence designed into their molecules I'll allow that there are probably a lot of such helpers on a Craftworld.
Design in this form is not something that I would personally incorporate into the argument, i.e. the shuriken 'knowing' how to function, in essence.  But opinions vary! :D

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Offline TDB

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Re: Eldar AI
« Reply #23 on: December 8, 2005, 12:57:40 AM »
Well, what can i say, i'm not going to answer each and every point but well...

There is no evidence of Eldar AI post-fall.  There is evidence pre-fall.  This would suggest strongly that AI (at least in an advanced form is no longer used (at least on the battlefield).  I stick to the point that Eldar use the souls of the dead over robots, doing something abhorrent rather than utilise 'robots'.  This means that using 'AI' is either worse or not usable in a war situation.

What use would AI be anyway?  They have the souls of the dead / the infinity circuit to accomplish most of the tasks that AI could do so what extra would AI bring?  Eldar don't build things like Humans do and i don't really see them with a soldering iron building circuits.

Show evidence of AI in an advanced form.  Until that point i'm going to stick with the Eldar 'growing' their technology with art inextricably linked to construction.  I know Kage disagrees and considers Eldar a techno-magic society but i see them as a technomagic one.  Oh, an explanation on that, well i see Eldar as building everything through bonesinger-like abilities, with no physical construction methods par se.

That isn't to say Eldar can't build advanced AI like the past it's just that they don't.  The Craftworld Eldar went back to ancient methods of society in many ways, perhaps wraith technology and the infinity circuit is part of that (something backed up by Vaul's Ghost Warriors) with AI being 'advanced' technology and of their dark past?
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Eldar AI
« Reply #24 on: December 8, 2005, 05:30:19 PM »
Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
There is no evidence of Eldar AI post-fall.
I'm going to say that we must balance this against the increasing prominence of the Thematic Army premise.  Eldar have been gradually 'refined' as using 'soul' technology, but this doesn't mean that it is exclusive of artificial means.  Again, though, I point you to the fact that the only 'MI' that I believe the eldar to have is the gestalt consciousness of the undifferentiated spirits of dead eldar... So that probably says a lot.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
I stick to the point that Eldar use the souls of the dead over robots, doing something abhorrent rather than utilise 'robots'.  This means that using 'AI' is either worse or not usable in a war situation.
I say that it is more Theme, using something as simplistic as the fact that 'Necrons are robots, ergo eldar cannot have robots'.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
What use would AI be anyway?  They have the souls of the dead / the infinity circuit to accomplish most of the tasks that AI could do so what extra would AI bring?
Depends on just which bits of the 'fluff' you are willing to believe.  Remember that these self-same souls that you would imply are 'superior' are also subject to such an effect that they need a Warlock to be around (regardless of the 'fluff' on Warlock Titans).

So, why don't the eldar have 'AI'?  Becuase they're not mentioned in the real 'fluff'.  Then again, what else isn't mentioned in the 'fluff'?  Do those things mean that they are not present, or merely not mentioned?  Again, the cliche but wonderful quote: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
Eldar don't build things like Humans do and i don't really see them with a soldering iron building circuits.
Nope, they don't.  But at the same time that doesn't mean that they build things 'uniquely' without reference to given physical or 'magical' laws.  Just because someone does things differently doesn't mean that it involves a cessation of all physical and spiritual laws, despite the GW tendency to try and create a unique explanatory mechanism for every single little bit of each little army.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
Show evidence of AI in an advanced form.
Read Daemon World.  There is the potential in that, but it really does depend on how much you read into the terms and how much you question the specific use of terms.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
Until that point i'm going to stick with the Eldar 'growing' their technology with art inextricably linked to construction.  I know Kage disagrees and considers Eldar a techno-magic society but i see them as a technomagic one.  Oh, an explanation on that, well i see Eldar as building everything through bonesinger-like abilities, with no physical construction methods par se.
It's amazing how opinions can vary and how, ultimately, they can be misconstrued.  I merely say that the eldar use artificial means of construction, not that such construction involves human-like construction.  After all, all eldar are psychomorphic and utilise 'autofactories' to advance that ability, but Bonesingers are something else. 

Of course, that really depends on how much you read into canon.  The above is merely the simple statement of the original 'fluff' without shading too much into Theme.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
...perhaps wraith technology and the infinity circuit is part of that (something backed up by Vaul's Ghost Warriors) with AI being 'advanced' technology and of their dark past?
Well, that depends on what you mean by 'Ghost Warriors'.  The interesting bit about 'Ghost Warriors' is that they were subjected to a different form of 'control system' than the normal implantation of a 'soul stone' (read: waystone that is implanted into the Infinity Circuit).  That is to say that they were subjected to soul grafting.

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Offline Nimrod

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Re: Eldar AI
« Reply #25 on: December 8, 2005, 08:21:10 PM »
So, why don't the eldar have 'AI'?  Becuase they're not mentioned in the real 'fluff'.  Then again, what else isn't mentioned in the 'fluff'?  Do those things mean that they are not present, or merely not mentioned?  Again, the cliche but wonderful quote: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

I agree with this. There is a vast ocean of knowledge about Eldar we may only speculate about. That hardly makes the speculation worthless, however, as we can apply logical thinking to what we do know to infer what we don't. This is one of those instances.

Quote from: Kage2020
Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
Eldar don't build things like Humans do and i don't really see them with a soldering iron building circuits.
Nope, they don't.

Everyone is in agreement. As I (sort of) explained/relented in my posts above, we don't need to see "computer chips" to suppose AI.

Quote from: Kage2020
Read Daemon World.

Slightly OT, but do you really recommend that? I mean, I have yet to pick up a single Warhammer book for fear that it's as rotten as the D&D tripe. I am serious. If you think it's worth reading I'll add it to my to-read list. Right behind E.B. White. :)

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
Until that point i'm going to stick with the Eldar 'growing' their technology with art inextricably linked to construction.

I agree with this, I think. Do you think Kage doesn't? Bonesingers might not seem technological, but, as Sagan put it, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishible from magic.
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Eldar AI
« Reply #26 on: December 8, 2005, 08:46:02 PM »
Quote from: Nimrod
This is one of those instances.
The instances are more than common.  It's more a case of when you think that they are worth applying! ;)

Quote from: Nimrod
Everyone is in agreement. As I (sort of) explained/relented in my posts above, we don't need to see "computer chips" to suppose AI.
  Broadly, though, yes.  But we also need not disclude the technology in case merely because 'circuit boards' are not in the minds of some people, or the generic image.

Quote from: Nimrod
Slightly OT, but do you really recommend that? I mean, I have yet to pick up a single Warhammer book for fear that it's as rotten as the D&D tripe. I am serious. If you think it's worth reading I'll add it to my to-read list. Right behind E.B. White. :) [/quote
No, I don't.  It's awful.  In fact, avoid BL in general with but one or two exceptions.  It's all rather dire.

Quote from: Nimrod
I agree with this, I think. Do you think Kage doesn't? Bonesingers might not seem technological, but, as Sagan put it, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishible from magic.
I believe it is Clarke that is attributed with that one, but it is very easy to interpret my comments in a completely static way.  The point here being is that Bonesingers are not the sole producers of technology.  This much is clear from the 'fluff'.  For me, though, Bonesingers are the ones that you want your technology from... To much is being read into Image.

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Offline Nimrod

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Re: Eldar AI
« Reply #27 on: December 8, 2005, 10:28:51 PM »
Quote from: Nimrod
Everyone is in agreement. As I (sort of) explained/relented in my posts above, we don't need to see "computer chips" to suppose AI.
  Broadly, though, yes.  But we also need not disclude the technology in case merely because 'circuit boards' are not in the minds of some people, or the generic image.

Roger that.

Quote from: Nimrod
Slightly OT, but do you really recommend that? I mean, I have yet to pick up a single Warhammer book for fear that it's as rotten as the D&D tripe. I am serious. If you think it's worth reading I'll add it to my to-read list. Right behind E.B. White. :)
No, I don't.  It's awful.  In fact, avoid BL in general with but one or two exceptions.  It's all rather dire.

Thought so. I really like the WH40K story in a general sense, but I have a great reluctance to read the BL novels.

Quote from: Nimrod
as Sagan put it...(blah blah blah)
I believe it is Clarke that is attributed with that one

Right you are. My bad. My brain is full and old facts keep spilling out and getting lost.

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Offline eldarblokee

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Re: Eldar AI my theories (I'm a new poster so play gentle)
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2005, 03:11:57 PM »
They used to have AI I think Ghost Droids (the forerunners of the wraith guard)

They were ditched by GW because I think GW realised that if you could build war droids then why not have a whole army of them and keep your guardians home painting landscapes?

It may be to do with the fall, that the Eldar don't want thier lives being handed to them by technology, but are to be gained through the Eldar path. So they have a disdain for automation?

Maybe they like war so much that they want to get down and dirty, (The Eldar were always quite dark even before the Dark Eldar... they do worship a God of war after all)

They do have a disdain for raising their dead to fight for them so if they could do it any other way I'm fairly sure they would... So it seems to be quite the fluff hole for one of the most advanced technological race?

Maybe they saw what happened with the Necrons and thought better of it?

Maybe the Machine spirit is capable of subverting Eldar AI????   I very much doubt it but while I'm into wild speculation...

I apologise if all these ideas have already been put out there... I'm late to the thread.

Offline TDB

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Re: Eldar AI
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2005, 06:56:37 PM »
Quote
I say that it is more Theme, using something as simplistic as the fact that 'Necrons are robots, ergo eldar cannot have robots'.

Quote
Depends on just which bits of the 'fluff' you are willing to believe.  Remember that these self-same souls that you would imply are 'superior' are also subject to such an effect that they need a Warlock to be around (regardless of the 'fluff' on Warlock Titans).

No i'm saying that because they use something that their culture finds abhorrent that there must be a very good reason why we don't see AI forms on the battlefield (once again in a thinking robot sort of way).  I would in fact argue that there should be a race which does use robots as Necrons are, effectively Wraithguard.

If Eldar used AI over Wraithforms pre-fall that would indicate (although not prove) that Eldar AI is in fact superior to the current methods.  Which once again makes me wonder why they don't seem to use it.

Quote
It's amazing how opinions can vary and how, ultimately, they can be misconstrued.  I merely say that the eldar use artificial means of construction, not that such construction involves human-like construction.  After all, all eldar are psychomorphic and utilise 'autofactories' to advance that ability, but Bonesingers are something else.

I'm sorry if i misconstrued your opinion but i was just trying to show my distinction of Eldar technology.  Namely that Eldar could build their technology 'without hands' as it were.  I see Eldar as largely having separated themselves from the physical world and now prefer the warp world.  This would mean not using computer chips (by which i mean any form of pre-determined script which imitates intelligence including crystal format)or physical construction at all. 
Yes, i disagree that "...at the same time that doesn't mean that they build things 'uniquely' without reference to given physical or 'magical' laws".

I wouldn't stretch this unique building method for each race but for Eldar i think it is, well, apt.

Quote
Well, that depends on what you mean by 'Ghost Warriors'.  The interesting bit about 'Ghost Warriors' is that they were subjected to a different form of 'control system' than the normal implantation of a 'soul stone' (read: waystone that is implanted into the Infinity Circuit).  That is to say that they were subjected to soul grafting.

Indeed it does depend on what you mean by 'Ghost Warriors'.  I just think it is possible that the Eldar post-fall thought that the way their gods did things was the best way, thus tying in with my opinion that there is a reason for the almost complete lack of AI.  Perhaps the Eldar cannot 'soul graft' as going into the warp to retrieve soul stones is quite a task .

Quote
Broadly, though, yes.  But we also need not disclude the technology in case merely because 'circuit boards' are not in the minds of some people, or the generic image.

Quote
ust because someone does things differently doesn't mean that it involves a cessation of all physical and spiritual laws

But at the same time we cannot necessarily include them for the same reasons.

I guess i see the Eldar as having chosen a single path of development (namely the use of warp technology) to the almost negligence of all else.  I just see a lot of the arguments for Eldar having AI as being "well other races have it so the 'smartest' race have it" which falls into exactly the same trap as saying "other races have it so Eldar can't".  :D

Quote
They do have a disdain for raising their dead to fight for them so if they could do it any other way I'm fairly sure they would... So it seems to be quite the fluff hole for one of the most advanced technological race?

I see that reasoning as a problem (one that has been used a few times in this discussion.  No not by you as you discuss the opposite as well).  While others see this as a 'hole' i see it as a reason.  As stated above if the Eldar don't use it there must be a really good reason to force them into using the dead.

Quote
Maybe they saw what happened with the Necrons and thought better of it?

Maybe but i'd argue Wraithforms are more like Necrons than AI, after all, Necrons are souls trapped in metal, just like Wraithguard. 

Anyway i digress.  Unless someone shows me some form of hard evidence that the Eldar use advanced AI (i'll look for that book) i think my opinions and reasons have been stated. :)
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Offline Still_Good

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Re: Eldar AI
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2005, 11:08:07 PM »
Wow, I read the first half of that, then the quotations got out of hand.

My $.02:

Advanced Computer Programs (AI) or no, it seems everyone in this thread is forgetting about the greatness of analog systems.

One can design an extremely complex electronic system with absolutely no "Programmed Intelligence" to accomplish complex tasks.

Cars for years in the 80s had entirely analog ECUs that successfully calculated airflow from a flap with a resistor on it, then combined with the input from a the throttle body, used another series of circuits to determine injector pulse width. Pretty complicated stuff, actually, but no programming involved whatsoever.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2005, 11:09:36 PM by Still_Good »
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Offline Nimrod

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Re: Eldar AI
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2005, 09:57:41 AM »
everyone in this thread is forgetting about the greatness of analog systems.

No they're not :) .  I didn't call it an "analog system" -- I called it "elegance of design" -- but that's exactly what I was getting at. Things can have complex, even emergent, behaviors without being controlled by a program.

However, I eventually relented and allowed that even though there was no computer chip involved, it's still programming. The program is just distributed into the design.
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Eldar AI
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2005, 01:39:12 PM »
Quote from: eldarblokee
They used to have AI I think Ghost Droids (the forerunners of the wraith guard)
To my knowledge the Ghostwarriors were subjected to what appeas to be an early version of 'soul stone' technology, the 'Soul Grafting'.  Here the soul of the eldar was implanted directly into the machine rather than with an intermediary 'soul stone'.

Quote from: eldarblokee
They were ditched by GW because I think GW realised that if you could build war droids then why not have a whole army of them and keep your guardians home painting landscapes?
See the above.  Although note that the eldar did at one point use 'artficial constructors' and, indeed, still do utilise robotic technologies.

Quote from: eldarblokee
It may be to do with the fall, that the Eldar don't want thier lives being handed to them by technology, but are to be gained through the Eldar path. So they have a disdain for automation?
Given that automation is used in the construction of eldar technologies (cf. WD127), this might be a bit of a stretch.

Quote from: eldarblokee
Maybe they like war so much that they want to get down and dirty...
This would be entirely appropriate for the Path of the Warrior, but doesn't seem to follow through with the rest of the eldar.  Why throw a supposedly 'dying race' into battle all the time?

Quote from: eldarblokee
The Eldar were always quite dark even before the Dark Eldar... they do worship a God of war after all...
And many other gods, if in a somewhat morbid fashion!

Quote from: eldarblokee
They do have a disdain for raising their dead to fight for them so if they could do it any other way I'm fairly sure they would...
This makes little sense given their approach to the utilisation of the 'dead'.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
No i'm saying that because they use something that their culture finds abhorrent that there must be a very good reason why we don't see AI forms on the battlefield (once again in a thinking robot sort of way).
You're right in some way, but it is stretching the 'fluff' quite some considerable way.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
I would in fact argue that there should be a race which does use robots as Necrons are, effectively Wraithguard.
And the eldar, above all others, should be one of those races! ;)

But, yes, the Necron technologies share many similarities - if opposing 'technological basis' - for the 'wargear' that you see evidenced, i.e. Wraith-units and the Avatar itself. ;)

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
If Eldar used AI over Wraithforms pre-fall that would indicate (although not prove) that Eldar AI is in fact superior to the current methods.  Which once again makes me wonder why they don't seem to use it.
Purely Thematic Army, I'm guessing.  Given the duration of the Fall it begins to begger belief that the eldar went, "Ooops.  We left all that knowledge on the homeworld.  Bugger."

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
Namely that Eldar could build their technology 'without hands' as it were.
Indeed, and this can be done both directly by the eldar and, presumably, by the spirits of the Infninity Circuit.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
I see Eldar as largely having separated themselves from the physical world and now prefer the warp world.
Well, given their myth states that they were originally separated from the warp...?  Hmmn.  I see what you're getting at, but the idea that the eldar conjure everything out of thin air has always struck me as a bit munchkin.  Ergo I maintain a physical component: eldar bridge the gap between the C'tan/Necrons and the Old Ones.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
I just think it is possible that the Eldar post-fall thought that the way their gods did things was the best way, thus tying in with my opinion that there is a reason for the almost complete lack of AI.
It just seems to me to be too nebulous.  Too much of a stretch to validate something that seems more obviously keyed to the idea that if you have robots that can fight, you will use robots to fight.  Ergo, what is the point of having 'soldiers'.  Also, it steps on the toes of the Necron 'Theme'.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
Perhaps the Eldar cannot 'soul graft' as going into the warp to retrieve soul stones is quite a task .
Pardon?

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
I guess i see the Eldar as having chosen a single path of development (namely the use of warp technology) to the almost negligence of all else.
I've seen the argument before, and while there is some justification for it the exact opposite can also be taken.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
I just see a lot of the arguments for Eldar having AI as being "well other races have it so the 'smartest' race have it" which falls into exactly the same trap as saying "other races have it so Eldar can't". 
Indeed.  And the same approach whereby everything has to be different to market little alloy figures? ;)

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
As stated above if the Eldar don't use it there must be a really good reason to force them into using the dead.
Yet they have no problem using the Ancestors in general for other tasks.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
Maybe but i'd argue Wraithforms are more like Necrons than AI, after all, Necrons are souls trapped in metal, just like Wraithguard.
Hmmn, I'm fairly sure that Necrons are not 'souls trapped in metal'.

Quote from: tapdancingbeavers
Anyway i digress.  Unless someone shows me some form of hard evidence that the Eldar use advanced AI (i'll look for that book) i think my opinions and reasons have been stated.
And you are entitled to your opinion.  Personally I find sticking to the canon to be inherently restrictive, since we're restricting ourselves to whatever GW happens to want to write about to market their new army.  Each to his own!

Or put another way: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Quote from: Still_Good
Advanced Computer Programs (AI) or no, it seems everyone in this thread is forgetting about the greatness of analog systems.
I don't forget anyone is forgetting it, merely concentrating on the issues at hand.

Kage

 


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