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Main => General 40k => Topic started by: Lord of Winter and War on November 5, 2021, 08:23:30 AM

Title: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on November 5, 2021, 08:23:30 AM
Hey folks, passing this information along. Games Workshop is conducting a player survey of it's 40k player base, good to take a minute or two and pass along your two cents.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/04/your-chance-to-make-warhammer-40000-even-better-with-the-gamers-survey/ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/04/your-chance-to-make-warhammer-40000-even-better-with-the-gamers-survey/)
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Wyddr on November 5, 2021, 11:21:19 PM
Filled it out. Told them the rules are getting a bit out of hand again. Game has big barriers to entry these days.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Blazinghand on November 9, 2021, 03:19:31 PM
Replied and let them know my thoughts, which are somewhat similar. Interestingly, I kinda miss the period right after the start of 8e when everyone got a rules update and things were relatively manageable.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: magenb on November 9, 2021, 04:08:32 PM
yes, I also included that the sales cycle is killing the game, new models given obviously OP rules then nerfed a few weeks later.

You can not balance a game where abilities are not point costed, so starts need to be changed to wargear option for the unit.

Movement distances are insane, some units being able to consistently charge more than 8 inches, is what made Flammer's near pointless. The flip side is now you have a 12 inch range, they are OP due to stupid deep striking rules. a unit on foot shouldn't be able to run just as fast as a jetbike.. and deep striking needs to scatter again, so there is a risk/reward scenario happening.

Volume of dice is also  problem, what's the point in rolling 120 dice... you may as well just say remove the unit and save the time for rolling.

Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Myen'Tal on November 9, 2021, 07:29:26 PM
I too filled out the survey.

Anyone notice this article on warhammer community?

It can't be by coincidence  8).

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/)
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: magenb on November 10, 2021, 12:02:10 AM
GW has been claiming all of their updates are to improve balance, which is techncially true, but you can't balance a system when you have mechanics that act as multipliers that are not costed, even if everyone had the same number of command points and access to the same strats, some strats just work better with some units..

Starts are better left in narrative and campaign settings, where you have to earn command points and don't automatically get them every game.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on November 10, 2021, 01:11:26 PM
I too filled out the survey.

Anyone notice this article on warhammer community?

It can't be by coincidence  8).

http://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/ (http://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/)

Since the survey is not finished yet, I imagine this update was planned before the survey was implemented. I think the regularity of the balance dataslates in the future can be attributed to the survey though.

I'm very happy with all the changes in the update, a nice surprise.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Wyddr on November 10, 2021, 02:39:06 PM
My only real problem with the update is that they KEEP CHANGING point values to the point where it's becoming really hard to plan and build an army. Drukhari points have changed, what, 3 times in the past year? It's getting so I can't keep track. I don't build armies all that fast, so this is really irritating. 

At this rate, they're going to drive me straight to playing with (shudder) Power Levels.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on November 10, 2021, 04:44:22 PM
To be fair, drukhari have continued to be pretty broken competitively even after all the previous changes. Hopefully this update can tone their powerlevel down noticeably.

I'm happy to see balance changes, especially playing before 8th edition, where things were just broken forever.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Wyddr on November 11, 2021, 09:13:27 AM
Yes, granted, but maybe they should, I don't know, PLAYTEST through their changes before publicizing them so they only need to change them once?

And, notably, nobody's going out of their way to to do anything for the unplayably BAD factions. Or at least certainly not at the level they're going after the good ones.

Are Chaos Daemons even a playable army anymore? And I know Tau have their codex coming, but its been a long time for them even in this edition with barely so much as a nudge.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on November 11, 2021, 09:23:14 AM
I think that it's really hard to anticipate the effect of any balance update. Gw playtest team is a lot smaller than thousands of people worldwide playing the game.

I do appreciate that they make small points adjustments,  and then wait and see how that works and then see if further change is needed, rather than just doing huge sweeping changes in one go which can cause things to swing too far in the other direction.

I do appreciate trying to bring up the weaker armies (this update actually addresses that, which I was really surprised by). But, there is always the need to wait for the book to be brought entirely up to the same level. 2/3 of my armies have no eta on when they are being updated, so I feel you on that.

Chaos demons are very playable, but not as mono demons.

Tau, gsc, and guard are all languishing the most, and 2/3 of those are getting new books fairly quickly.

I just want everyone to have crusade rules so my club can play a sweet crusade campaign and everyone gets the same out of it.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: magenb on November 11, 2021, 04:34:00 PM
I think that it's really hard to anticipate the effect of any balance update. Gw playtest team is a lot smaller than thousands of people worldwide playing the game.

Sure, and some things will get missed, but but how could you NOT play test the DE codex and NOT think it wasn't over powering to start with...  Same can be said for Admech... They also have 3rd party play tester, who provide feedback, so it's not just the internal team.  Now if you own internal team is soo incompetent they can't work this out, then maybe hire some of the tournament winners, clearly that one guy that found the original codex for DE was unbeatable would be a good candidate.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Wyddr on November 12, 2021, 10:36:41 AM
The basic side effect of this is that I'm putting my Drukhari project on the shelf for the time being until they cool off a bit and I can have reasonable odds that the models I buy will be models I can use.

This is a round-about way of saying it's going to be Thousand Sons for the next little while for me. Nobody is going to fiddle much with them, because they're just never good enough for anyone to care.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Kage2020 on November 12, 2021, 08:42:49 PM
This is a thoroughly depressing conversation to be following as someone that was getting back into the hobby side of things so that he could play with his son. Guess I'm going to have to wait a while for things to stabilise...

... And, well, stick with the painting and modeling side of things.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on November 12, 2021, 09:55:29 PM
It's 40K. Spin around a few times and all the rules will change with the seasons.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Sir_Godspeed on November 12, 2021, 10:24:41 PM
And surely you can just house-rule some things if you think point costs are off? Or just go with whatever's in the codices, changes be damned?
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on November 12, 2021, 10:35:37 PM
If you're training the sprog you could always order an old edition and codexes and run it as long as you're constant.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Wyddr on November 13, 2021, 07:41:15 AM
I'd also point out again that so long as you pick a faction that isn't currently considered overpowered, nobody is going to mess with it much.

I do find the quarterly updates irritating instead of helpful, though. I gave up tournament play back in the hot mess that was 7th edition and we're right back there again.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on November 13, 2021, 08:40:46 AM
If anything, the message has become clear.  Don't chase the meta.  If you are buying armies and units because they are the latest hot thing in the tournament scene, you're going to be regretting that. 

Build armies and units that you are excited about and want to have fun with, and you're pretty much going to be solid going forward.  Just be aware that if you are going for an army that has not received a 9th ed codex, things are going to be a little rough.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Wyddr on November 13, 2021, 09:30:47 AM
If anything, the message has become clear.  Don't chase the meta.  If you are buying armies and units because they are the latest hot thing in the tournament scene, you're going to be regretting that. 

Build armies and units that you are excited about and want to have fun with, and you're pretty much going to be solid going forward.  Just be aware that if you are going for an army that has not received a 9th ed codex, things are going to be a little rough.

The only problem is when you buy an army because you want to have fun with it and then it just SO HAPPENS to be the latest hot thing.  :-\

Been planning a Wych Cult for years and years. I finally get around to doing it, and the point values of all my stuff keeps changing before I can even get the army ready for the table.

Anyway, I'm done whining. Even over and above this specific gripe of mine, the game has become much harder to keep track of than, say, in 8th or 4th-6th editions. This is 7th Edition level of nonsense, and it's what killed my old gaming group dead. Not relishing the idea of going through it again.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Kage2020 on November 13, 2021, 06:55:04 PM
If you're training the sprog you could always order an old edition and codexes and run it as long as you're constant.
Good point. That raises another question, but one sufficiently OffT that I should probably take it to another thread before getting red-text. ;)
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on November 13, 2021, 07:00:08 PM
The red text is an automatic coded feature, not special attention.  ;)
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Kage2020 on November 13, 2021, 07:53:37 PM
The red text is an automatic coded feature, not special attention.  ;)
I was only playing. It's good to have reminders. :D
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Irisado on November 14, 2021, 07:52:23 AM
I have completed the survey.  It's quite strangely constructed if, like me, you do not play.  Nevertheless, I have outlined why I think that the game has fundamental flaws at the moment and provided suggestions about how they can fix them.  They won't take any notice because my ideas are far too radical, but at least I had the opportunity to make my point.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Kage2020 on November 15, 2021, 12:28:39 AM
Would it be appropriate to discuss these ideas in a suitable venue (if not this thread)?

I'm less interested in the notion that the survey exists unless it is coupled with peoples' ideas about their perspectives on how it could be used to improve 40k.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on November 15, 2021, 12:50:41 AM
Here's fine. I replied to it as a weekend warrior, as it were, of 40K players. I had the same issues of rule complexity and deluge while also stating I was not a current player.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Wyddr on November 15, 2021, 08:56:06 AM
Would it be appropriate to discuss these ideas in a suitable venue (if not this thread)?

I'm less interested in the notion that the survey exists unless it is coupled with peoples' ideas about their perspectives on how it could be used to improve 40k.

I would put money down that Irisado wants there to be no flyers, no superheavies, and smaller armies.

Of all that, I can definitely agree that the games should be smaller. Default point level should be 1500, not 2000. Just about every broken combo I can think of doesn't work half as well if you just chop 25% off the points limit.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Irisado on November 15, 2021, 01:53:55 PM
I would put money down that Irisado wants there to be no flyers, no superheavies, and smaller armies.

You forgot titans and knights ;).  You are correct though :).  I went a lot further than that by proposing an entire redesign of the core rules around a percentile dice or D12/D10 system and a major reduction in the amount of dice rolling.  I believe that it is not possible to fix 40K for so long as GW remains committed to the D6.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: magenb on November 15, 2021, 05:55:16 PM
Bring back CAD system, not this bring what ever you feel like, this will make it easier to balance.
Super heavies/knights/uber leaders like mortarion need to be restricted to x+ point sizes.
Strats need to be dropped and armies re-tooled to make up for the changes. Strats could be move to campaign systems as a one off reward, not every game.
Remove allies, leave that for narrative/campaign.
Deep striking needs to go back to scattering system.
Flamers need to max out at 1 hit per model in the unit become shot, their range needs to be pulled back.
Movement distances need some serious re-thinking, people on foot should not be able to move more than a rifle can shoot in a single turn.

Bring back twin linked and/or restrict units to max sizes more, seriously the number of shots has gotten silly.

Some units need to be 0-1, per x points to stop them being abused.

roll back all the re-roll effects, these need to be rare outside of twin linked.

If a strat has actual value so not shoot/fight twice bs, then make it a wargear option and point cost it. Shooting at deep striking unit would be handy, but it should also mean the have to forgo moving or shooting in their next turn, to reload or something, but again a point costed upgrade.

Remove can only take x wounds per turn. It's stupid and a side effect of moving to multiwound infantry models needing weapons that cause multiple wounds.

Stop the sales cycle... we love our armies, we don't need short term OP rules to convince us to buy stuff, fun balanced game play will do more for the company long term.

Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Kage2020 on November 15, 2021, 09:00:26 PM
Back in the day, what I really wanted was a "system" that would allow me to play different scales of 40k but have them relatable somehow. Basically, a campaign system. This was the time that Mighty Empires had just been released, Epic was still going strong (ish), and Battlefleet Gothic was out, too. No 40k RPG, but you had WFRP and Critical Hit, so you could cobble something together without too much problem.

Skirmishes were actually skirmishes (40k) that played out to facilitate battles (Epic), all of which was related to a whole resource model (ME).

Terrible, terrible mechanics, of course, but we were young.

Question: Has GW come close to this in the subsequent years? If not, that would be a huge thing to add (for me) to the survey.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Sir_Godspeed on November 15, 2021, 09:46:18 PM
Not quite what you mentioned, but I think I recall the online campaigns, like 13th Black Crusade and the Third War for Armageddon accepting match results from several game systems? (40k, Epic, Battlefleet Gothic, iirc, at least)

There was also Inquisitor back in the day, but I'm not sure if that was ever tied into anything else.

I remember there being a lot of hullabaloo about Apocalypse rules years ago - was it just abandoned?
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Wyddr on November 19, 2021, 12:45:03 PM
Apocalypse was basically lumped into the main game, generally speaking. The only thing keeping you from an Apocalypse game is point limit.

I, personally, LOVE stratagems--they are easily my favorite part of the game these days.

I honestly don't have too much of a problem with the base game or base mechanics. I just think the codexes and army-list-building has gotten needlessly bonkers. It isn't strictly codex creep anymore--it's codex sprawl. amphetamine parrot's all over the place and its just hard to keep track of what anything does anymore.

I was very pleased with how 8th edition was going. I, again, don't really see why GW felt the need to amp it up with 9th (though I do vastly prefer these missions and like the idea of secondary objectives a lot). 
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: magenb on November 20, 2021, 06:34:34 AM

Question: Has GW come close to this in the subsequent years? If not, that would be a huge thing to add (for me) to the survey.

No, you can't scale from a skirmish game to an EPIC sized game with a single rules set. The closest is probably 5th edition which had support materials to do basically kill team scale, combat patrol (2-3 units), to normal games, all the way up to Apoc. If you want to run apoc, set as side a weekend or have multiple players on each side to help move everything lol.  There is a fair amount of cross over in the rules sets though.

I know people have integrated kill team, combat patrols, standard matches AND BFG into their own campaign system, but BFG will use BFG rules. Some campaign start small and build up to an APOC game. So, you can certainly make things work.

5th had  ALOT of additional books, not in the way that 7th and 8th did, they weren't needed to play the base game, they just gave you different ways to enjoy your collection.

Part way through 8th they release a separate "apoc" game, which let you play Apoc scale games in about the same time as a 40k game. It actually needed less dice than a 40k game lol. IT wasn't what people were expecting and they didn't really want this sort of version of the game, so it died out.


EPIC has continued to be supported by the community, for me, it suffers from a lot of the same problems 8th and 9th does with regards to movement vs weapon ranges, and just units being able to scratch tanks to destruction.



GW has basically taken on the video game model, where the game doesn't even have to be working correctly before its shipped (hello BF2042), because they can quickly pump out "patches", and just like video games those patches tend to break other things... 8th and 9th feel very much like you are play testing the game and just when it gets to a decent place, they drop a new version and make all the same "mistakes" again.

In all honesty, GW need to pull it all back to bare bones, so play testing can be effective. Write everyone's codexes at the same time, release the lot of them (you could still stagger them if you really wanted to) and then use white dwarf to release new stuff as beta rules getting them ready for the next edition, like they did with warhammer fantasy 6th era. As the community keep trying to tell GW, most or the old armies actually have all the tools they need, we don't need new units, we are move than happy with new sculpts that are not space marines ;)


Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Sumshine on November 23, 2021, 05:39:44 PM
In all honesty, GW need to pull it all back to bare bones, so play testing can be effective. Write everyone's codexes at the same time, release the lot of them (you could still stagger them if you really wanted to) and then use white dwarf to release new stuff as beta rules getting them ready for the next edition, like they did with warhammer fantasy 6th era. As the community keep trying to tell GW, most or the old armies actually have all the tools they need, we don't need new units, we are move than happy with new sculpts that are not space marines ;)

Tbh I see more people posting the opposite than this opinion right now.  They want old codexes "reworked from the ground up" e.g. Nighthaunt and beastmen in AoS.  I haven't really payed attention to 40k specific community in awhile, but the painting discords that I'm on have 40k channels and it seems like similar complaints/requests.  Also, I for one am excited about the announcement about traitor guard, mutants, new possessed, etc for chaos in 2022.  I've always wanted to play the "Lost and the Damned" version of chaos space marines but never had the models.

Overall though, I think I agree with you.  I play so infrequently I would rather the rules just stay the same.  However, IMO 9th edition is waaaaaay better than all the editions I've played, which was primarily 4th, some 5th, and exactly 1 game of 6th.  I like stratagems a lot, and the objectives make things more interesting than they were.  I dislike the smaller board.  I really really really dislike that things aren't balanced, especially within individual codexes.
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Wyddr on November 24, 2021, 08:11:22 AM
I dislike the smaller board.  I really really really dislike that things aren't balanced, especially within individual codexes.

Yes, 100% agree on the smaller board. I mean, I guess if you're just starting out, finding a board that is 24 square inches smaller is marginally easier, but not by much.

And yeah, the internal codex balance I think is a lot worse than the balance between codexes. There's just so much junk in every codex, it is an exercise in futility to even attempt to balance it all.

Just as a random example: how many different Great Cults get played for Thousand Sons? I'm guessing it's, like, three of them. The others are transparently worse, so why bother? And if you're going to give us a ton of options, why make a bunch of those options obviously terrible?

It reminds me of the long-beloved 3.5 edition Chaos codex. Some cool stuff people remember as being OP (Iron Warriors w/Basilisks!), but everything else? beslubbering garbage.   
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on November 24, 2021, 05:21:52 PM
It reminds me of the long-beloved 3.5 edition Chaos codex. Some cool stuff people remember as being OP (Iron Warriors w/Basilisks!), but everything else? beslubbering garbage.
We remember that codex very differently lol
Title: Re: 40k Players Survey
Post by: Kage2020 on November 25, 2021, 12:17:51 AM
It reminds me of the long-beloved 3.5 edition Chaos codex. Some cool stuff people remember as being OP (Iron Warriors w/Basilisks!), but everything else? beslubbering garbage.
We remember that codex very differently lol
Take the Eldar back to the days of WD127, I say! Nothing says OP more than a 150 grav D-Cannon guided by a Warlock with whatever the power was for doubling rage. You, too, can watch 5,000 point of Marines in vehicles disappear into the warp for the grand price of 250 points of your 5,000 point army.

*basks in the glory of yesteryear!* ;)