Topic: Need help with AC...

[Krunek]

Here´s the deal:  I´m new to AC,I haven´t played a single game with it,but I do have a (still) successful Dark Eldar army.
I´ve read the tactics articles,and several topics posted here.This is my list,I tried to keep it cheap.I have no experience in using Leman Russ tanks,but the sight of one of those bulky tanks on the other side of the table(as a DE player) gave me the chills more than once.However,this list has minimal options to compensate for the lack of numbers an AC has.I´m used to playing with large armies so this is a challenge for me.This is the list:
  Armoured company

HQ
 Command tank 
 LR Exterminator
 Turret mounted Autocannon twin linked
 Hull mounted Heavy Bolter
 Sponson Heavy bolters
 Pintle Mounted H.Stubber
 smoke launchers                                                                                   
                                  257 pts
Elites
 Tank Ace   
 LR Vanquisher                 
 Turret mounted Vanquisher battle cannon
 Co axial storm bolter
 Hull mounted lasscannon
 HB Sponsons     
                   260
 Troops

  LR Battle tank                                   LR Battle Tank   
  Turret mounted Battle cannon            Turret mounted Battle Cannon
  Hull mounted lascannon                      Hull mounted Lascannon 
  Sponson Heavy Bolters                       Sponson Heavy Bolters                   
                         165 pts                                         165pts

  LR Battle Tank                                  LR Battle Tank   
  Turret mounted Battle cannon           Turret mounted Battle cannon
  Hull mounted HB                              Hull mounted HB   
  Sponson Heavy bolters                      Sponson Heavy Bolters 
                         155 pts                                        155 pts





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      1177
Heavy support

 LR Demolisher   
 Turret mounted Demolisher cannon
 Hull mounted lascannon                    X2
 Plasma cannon sponsons
                           175
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   1500 pts
Fast attack
3 Cadian pattern santinels 150 pts,as 3 fast attack choices
Armed with an autocannon each


 3 Sentinels are an option for now,reading how they could infiltrate and kill some tanks by hitting the side AV,i saw the relatively low point cost,so by dropping a  LR I can take 3 of these,and have 5 pts to spare.

 How about other options  available ? Hellhounds?

 Thanks for your help...

[draco84oz]

I've played against an armoured companies before, and I can say this - Infantry Support. Tanks need it like an infantryman needs cover.

Without infantry supporting the tanks (at least to protect the flanks), infiltrators and fast units will simply roar up the sides and rears of your tanks and thow anti-tank stuff left right and centre. I've done it with Assault Marines, but Tankbustas, Dark/Eldar Heavy Weapons, Tau Battlesuits etc can all do the same thing. Infantry on the flanks will disuade this, or at least hold this up for a turn.

Also, tanks can get swamped by targets. A smart player will spread out his squads, limiting the casualties you cause with your ordnance. And since you have to advance to capture objectives or table quarters, and you have to really stay in open ground, the enemy can also setup ambushes with Anti-Tank weapons. Infantry will enable you to clear out these ambushes.

Drop the demolisher and take a couple of Armoured Fist Squads. Believe me, you really need it.

[Corpsman]

Most radical idea: Drop the Vanquisher and replace with Destroyer Tank Hunter.

-Anti Armour capability doesn't really go down all that much, but Destroyer is more multi use than Vanquisher Cannon. Vanquisher has trouble to take our Space Marines and units with similar or better armour save, while Laser Destroyer with AP 2 has no such qualms. While it isn't ordance blast marker or ordance penetration, there is benefit of being always able to make most of tank ace's increased BS as there is no scatter and vehicular or heavily armoured infantry being equally easy targets to hit. Not to mention, the Vanquisher is poorer than Battle Cannon against single heavlily armoured infantry unit, like Tau Battlesuit.

Ever seen Tau player cry? Move destroyer 6" and blast that 'no scatter' marker on his two AV88 suits hiding behind terrain, killing both. There is very few weapons capable of doing that!

[Krunek]

So what you´re suggesting is giving the Tank Ace a Destroyer tank hunter?
...and to keep it sweet,perhaps i could add Ace gunners upgrade
Hm....you´re right....S 10 Ap2 blast that hits on a 3+ with a re-roll if I miss on a "1"....
 
As for the armoured fist squad...I´m not sure that´s a good idea.For 60 pts +upgrade+weapons i get 10 idiots riding in a open topped chimera ,they are poor in cc,don´t hit much with their weapons.I somewhat don´t think they could help the game plan much,apart for taking objectives-that they can do.

[CheeseThief]

Armoured companies are devestating but fragile things if your opponent knowns how to combat them.

For BS4 tanks you will want something without ordinance so it can use the BS4 as its main gun. Exterminators or Executioners are good but everyone seems to recon Exterminators are better. You can use them to target the worthless fodder infantry the enemy takes while your other tanks focus on the more deadly opponents with their ordinance so as not to waste it.

Anythings that doesnt have A14 on the front is not worth taking unless it comprises most of your army. Assault Orientated Mechanised is the only thing you should concider other than an all tank army and your probably better to make it with Infantry. Sentinels will get shot to death by everything that cannot hurt your tanks, and concidering bolters, heavy bolters, auto-cannons and plasma cannot hurt the front of the tanks, your sentinels will not last very long.

Chimeras are not open topped unless you use them like an idiot. Armoured Fists don't really have a place in an Armoured Company unless they comprise the majority of your force as an Assaulty Mechanised. Alone they are not the best but they are not as bad as you make them out to be. They are however infantry, and having only ten infantry in an army is pointless because they will die in a turn.

[Spirit of Kurnous]

i prefer the executioner for that nice ap2 gun.

[Krunek]

I know the infantry isn´t soo bad as i make it look,but Bs3 is poor if you only have one squad(and I would have)-and besides that i do want an army of tanks...
  Sentinels arn´t as good as I thought? What if they stand further then 36" away?
I could just take 4 LRBT as troops,instead of 3.

[Goyder]

Welcome to the AC sonny-jim!

Lets Have a looksee at that list of yours shall we?

HQ
 Command tank 
 LR Exterminator
 Turret mounted Autocannon twin linked
 Hull mounted Heavy Bolter
 Sponson Heavy bolters
 Pintle Mounted H.Stubber
 smoke launchers                                                                                  
                                  257 pts

This = a win. Cheap, to the point and dangerous. No complaints.

Elites
 Tank Ace  
 LR Vanquisher                 
 Turret mounted Vanquisher battle cannon
 Co axial storm bolter
 Hull mounted lasscannon
 HB Sponsons    
                   260

Good choice for elites, you've ensured that you're using the BS4 you get to good advantage. No complaints here either.

Troops

  LR Battle tank                                   LR Battle Tank  
  Turret mounted Battle cannon            Turret mounted Battle Cannon
  Hull mounted lascannon                      Hull mounted Lascannon 
  Sponson Heavy Bolters                       Sponson Heavy Bolters                   
                         165 pts                                         165pts

  LR Battle Tank                                  LR Battle Tank  
  Turret mounted Battle cannon           Turret mounted Battle cannon
  Hull mounted HB                              Hull mounted HB  
  Sponson Heavy bolters                      Sponson Heavy Bolters 
                         155 pts                                        155 pts

You could probably affort to only have one LRBT with a Hull Lascannon (the rest with hull Lascannons) but that's just a personal thing. This is spot on as well.

Heavy support

 LR Demolisher  
 Turret mounted Demolisher cannon
 Hull mounted lascannon                    X2
 Plasma cannon sponsons
                           175

Excellent! A good choice.

Fast attack
3 Cadian pattern santinels 150 pts,as 3 fast attack choices
Armed with an autocannon each

And here you fall flat on your face. Drop the Sentinals, get a Griffon or a bassie. Sentinels do not work in this kind of AC. They may work for a "Heavy Mech" version of an AC, but not in a good ol' fashioned lots'o'Leman Russ style AC. They will be decimated and destroyed before they do anything good.

Overall, a pretty damned decent start I say.

Now, lets have a look at what we have here...

I've played against an armoured companies before, and I can say this - Infantry Support. Tanks need it like an infantryman needs cover.

Incorrect. You also forget that a Tank is covered in 200mm of armour, while infantrymen are not.

Without infantry supporting the tanks (at least to protect the flanks), infiltrators and fast units will simply roar up the sides and rears of your tanks and thow anti-tank stuff left right and centre. I've done it with Assault Marines, but Tankbustas, Dark/Eldar Heavy Weapons, Tau Battlesuits etc can all do the same thing. Infantry on the flanks will disuade this, or at least hold this up for a turn.

Wrong. A well written list and carefull deployment can do more good than a 20 guardsmen ever would. How well do you think 20 Guardsmen are going to do honestly? Not very much. This kind of AC has no room for troopers, they simply do not work and are a massive waste of points. You're looking at 280pts that won't do much. I would rather pump that into Exterminators, because they are far better Flank protectors. As for Tau battlesuits, keep in a good formation so that you can lay the smackdown on said units, and thats something guardsmen could never do in an AC.

Also, tanks can get swamped by targets. A smart player will spread out his squads, limiting the casualties you cause with your ordnance. And since you have to advance to capture objectives or table quarters, and you have to really stay in open ground, the enemy can also setup ambushes with Anti-Tank weapons. Infantry will enable you to clear out these ambushes.

A smart AC player will also have sponsons and Hull weapons, and should be able to judge when is a good time to fire the Battlecannon, and when is a good time to let fly with bullets. With an AC, you cannot possibly HOPE to bring enough infantry to do what you are doing.
[/quote]

Drop the demolisher and take a couple of Armoured Fist Squads. Believe me, you really need it.

Believe me, you really dont. Smart tactics, smart deployment and well written list will outshin the pitiful ammount of infantry that you can bring in with an AC. The only place in an AC where infantrymen are good is with a "Heavy Mech" list, which is basically 3 Armoured fist squads, then 3 Stormtrooper squads.

[Corpsman]

Elites
 Tank Ace  
 LR Vanquisher                 
 Turret mounted Vanquisher battle cannon
 Co axial storm bolter
 Hull mounted lasscannon
 HB Sponsons    
                   260

Good choice for elites, you've ensured that you're using the BS4 you get to good advantage. No complaints here either.

I disagree. Vanquisher only has BS4 shot against vehicles. If opponent hasn't got the decency to bring his landrider to battle or if opponent plays Tyranids, this thing turns into Leman Russ with longer range main gun and BS4 is lost. In my view more versatile vehicle is needed here.

[Goyder]

I disagree. Vanquisher only has BS4 shot against vehicles. If opponent hasn't got the decency to bring his landrider to battle or if opponent plays Tyranids, this thing turns into Leman Russ with longer range main gun and BS4 is lost. In my view more versatile vehicle is needed here.

And I disagree with that. Cutlasses drawn at dawn I say! Arr! 

Didnt you also recommend the Destroyer Tank hunter? A tank that would be even more useless against this Tyranid threat because it lacks sponsons! I find your conflicting statements confusing. And the differance between the DTH and LR Vanquisher is very slim, one has an increase in overall firepower (to hunt tanks with obviously!) but lacks sponsons, while the other one can be a bit more of a jack-of-all-trades, destroying tanks and still spewing out a decent ammount of shots.

Also, if he was REALLY that worried about "wasting" his BS4 oppurtunity, he could take the Vanquisher and give it a Heavy Stubber (yes, you can do that), and thats a decent ammount of BS4 firepower. Or, he could switch around to an Exterminator when he vs. Horde armeis. But thats Tailoring your list, and that to me is bordering on Powergamming / being unsporting.

I agreed with the Vanquisher becuase I felt that he lacked any dedicated Anti-Tank. Sure, he has a demolisher, but that has Plasma Cannons and isnt very effective intill close up. He also has plenty of firepower in Ordanance and Sponson/Hull Weapons so I dont think he's going to have a problem with horde armies at all.

If he's really that worried about having to go against Broadsides, we'll try and help him squeze in another Demolisher, but he should be able to cope. You would only see about 2 - 3 of them in 1500pts anyway.

[Krunek]

First of all,let me thank you veterans for making some interesting points there.
   
Now @ Goyder
   I was thinking of not taking sentinels,I am aware of the fact that they have AV10,and that they are paper like,but here is an interesting fact...
   Sentinels are walkers,they could have range 48"- well beyond h.bolter range.
Packing an Autocannon,firing two shots per turn(math says they hit once).Providing I deploy them behind cover,completely out of LOS,they will get to fire.When they do,3 of them will land 3 hit on the average vs a side AV of a tank(most of the time being 11),this gives me a penetrating hit with a bit of luck,or glancing if I´m not that lucky...the tank doesn´t fir back.
  Remember that they do stand beyond 36"...
Also taking 3 of them in 3 different fast attack choices buy them time,since the opposition doesn´t  have 3 units to waste firing at sentinels...
   So,it takes 3 units to destroy 3 sentinels...
Plus another thing comes to mind...
  Let´s say I want to capitalize on that LRBT AV14,and I hide each sentinel behind  one LRBT...whatever comes out is a win-win situation.LRBT is hiding the sentinel,while the sentinel is hiding the tanks rear armour...
  3 Sentinels equal one LRBT...pointwise perhaps.
The list posted actually excludes the sentinels from the 1500 pts limit...the are an Option...
   They do create a target rich situation for the opposition...
the unit count with them is :
Exterminator
Vanquisher
LRBT
LRBT
LRBT
Demolisher
Demolisher
Sentinel
Sentinel
Sentinel
    10 models,3 of them paper tho-but my first army are DE,I´m used to not having armour(AV 10 is an excuse for armour),and I do know how to use vehicles that lack resilience.
  Another intersting point is that I could play sentinels as "infantry"...OK not really infantry.If they advance (or hide) behind a LRBT,they could actually tie up units that are trying to charge my tanks.In this case,a perhaps even flamers are a good option.I don´t think sentinels are good in cc,but if you shoot the mentioned squad first(with an exterminator),and the sentinel(s),they will kill some members of the unit,and sentinels could finish the job....perhaps
     One of the major reasons why I´m buying them is I´ll get them cheap,really cheap

[Corpsman]

Cutlasses? Would you settle for flamethrowers at two paces. 

When battling with tyranids, why bother with sponsons? You have at least four Battle cannons and those will take out tyranid hordes.

What they can't take out is tyranid big boys. Armour Save 2+ will defeat both Battle cannon and Vanquisher cannon. Tyrant with Warp Field or extended carpace is not going to be too impressed with big pie-plates and firing every hull mounted weapon (only ones that have a chance), will let those genestealers with rendering claws awful close. Answer is Destroyer. It has range and power to harm those big uglies from across the table, freeing your Troops to blast gaunts, stelers and other things.

This is why I promote Destroyer versus Vanquisher in anti-armour choice. We played few test games to find ways to kill Armoured company (nope, haven't played the real thing). On top of the list that kills AC was Save 2+ infantry and even orks can field them. Destroyer is answer that can handle those as well as armour and vehicles.

[Krunek]

  Destorey tank hunter is a good choice.I do loose a plate tho,but vs nids one plate more or less doesn´t make a differance.
  Plus the shooting wouldn´t be concentrated on gaunts....god knows they are harmless...
Warriors on the other hand are a pain,that´s where all the H.bolter come into play.

[Goyder]

   I was thinking of not taking sentinels,I am aware of the fact that they have AV10,and that they are paper like,but here is an interesting fact...
   Sentinels are walkers,they could have range 48"- well beyond h.bolter range.
Packing an Autocannon,firing two shots per turn(math says they hit once).Providing I deploy them behind cover,completely out of LOS,they will get to fire.When they do,3 of them will land 3 hit on the average vs a side AV of a tank(most of the time being 11),this gives me a penetrating hit with a bit of luck,or glancing if I´m not that lucky...the tank doesn´t fir back.
  Remember that they do stand beyond 36"...
Also taking 3 of them in 3 different fast attack choices buy them time,since the opposition doesn´t  have 3 units to waste firing at sentinels...
   So,it takes 3 units to destroy 3 sentinels...
Plus another thing comes to mind...
  Let´s say I want to capitalize on that LRBT AV14,and I hide each sentinel behind  one LRBT...whatever comes out is a win-win situation.LRBT is hiding the sentinel,while the sentinel is hiding the tanks rear armour...
  3 Sentinels equal one LRBT...pointwise perhaps.

Good points really, but don't forget that when people know that you're packing an Armoured Company you'll never see so many St. 8+ weapon in all your life, and unfortunatly, their uniform range is practically 48". And don't think that you're allways going to be on the standoff range of 48" all the time, your army will be constantlly moving as will theirs. In a sea of AV14 vehicles, sentinels are going down first. Yes, granted, it will take roughly 3 units to take down those 3 sentinels, but your tanks dont start going intill mid game when the enemy is all around you anyway, so in my mind its a moot point anyway. But, if you're dead set on taking them, take them by all means. I'm not playing your army, you're the one out to have fun here, not me.

    10 models,3 of them paper tho-but my first army are DE,I´m used to not having armour(AV 10 is an excuse for armour),and I do know how to use vehicles that lack resilience.
  Another intersting point is that I could play sentinels as "infantry"...OK not really infantry.If they advance (or hide) behind a LRBT,they could actually tie up units that are trying to charge my tanks.In this case,a perhaps even flamers are a good option.I don´t think sentinels are good in cc,but if you shoot the mentioned squad first(with an exterminator),and the sentinel(s),they will kill some members of the unit,and sentinels could finish the job....perhaps
     One of the major reasons why I´m buying them is I´ll get them cheap,really cheap

Lol. Welcome to the Imperial Guard, where tanks and armoured vehicles ARE ACTUALLY armoured!  As said above, if you feel you can use 'em well (and you're getting them cheap) by all means, use 'em. I feel you would be better off taking a bassie or a Griffon but when all is said and done, its your army.

Cutlasses? Would you settle for flamethrowers at two paces. 

Young'uns today, with your hip hop and rap music! You've forgoten what duals are all about! 

When battling with tyranids, why bother with sponsons? You have at least four Battle cannons and those will take out tyranid hordes.

It's called effecient firing my friend, when the enemy is spread out or in cover, shooting them with Hull and Sponson weapons are a better deal than firing your Battlecannon.

What they can't take out is tyranid big boys. Armour Save 2+ will defeat both Battle cannon and Vanquisher cannon. Tyrant with Warp Field or extended carpace is not going to be too impressed with big pie-plates and firing every hull mounted weapon (only ones that have a chance), will let those genestealers with rendering claws awful close. Answer is Destroyer. It has range and power to harm those big uglies from across the table, freeing your Troops to blast gaunts, stelers and other things.

This is why I promote Destroyer versus Vanquisher in anti-armour choice. We played few test games to find ways to kill Armoured company (nope, haven't played the real thing). On top of the list that kills AC was Save 2+ infantry and even orks can field them. Destroyer is answer that can handle those as well as armour and vehicles.

Again, firing effeciency! Why would you waste your battlecannon shots on those things? Hit 'em with Lascannons and Heavy Bolters! You'll cause a lot more wounds.

This said, it honestly doesnt bother me if he takes a Vanquisher or a DTH, I have a DTH and I love the thing to death. But both tanks are equally fantastic. The reason why I debated it with you is becuase to me your statements of "Get a DTH" when compared to his Vanquisher choice were rather conflicting IMO. Both are good choices however.

It does also appear that he's going for 2 Demolishers now in his AC list, meaning he'll have plenty of AP2 floating around.

Either way, both tanks kick ass 

[Krunek]

That´s good point about S8+ weapons...there is no point in taking devastator squads packing heavy bolters vs an AC-when I think about it.
   I have no doubt that the sentinels go down first,and by all means I do wish them to go down first...in turn 3 or so.
I´m hoping they will kill a tank/fast attack/transport by the time they go down.
My plan is to go to tourneys with this army,and I want to try different things before i do go.I don´t care about winning at all costs,I want to play good and have a good time.
   IG has armour you say? This is a thing I never had.Any hit on my vehicle in a DE army not causing the skimmer to go down(they are all skimmers as we all know) was just plain luck.AV 14 is a new thing for me
   
 If you still feel I should have a Bassilisk and a Griffon,the next question I need to ask is what to drop?
I have 2 H.Support choices...2 Demolishers.I love the fact they have side AV 13,plasma cannons and a fat,brutal S10 ordnance attack...
   One thing also...ho should I defeat necrons,we have a player wich loves to deepstrike his monolith,and he knows that this would cause lots of glancing hits,preventing half of my army from shooting.
  Everything else is clear:
1.kill all the destroyers.NOW
2.kill wraiths if he has any
3.Tackle monoliths
4.stand back and hit him with everything else

[Simpsonia]

I know Goyder and I have discussed this in the past, and he vehemently opposes doctrines, but I reccomend trying out Ace Gunners on all of your tanks. It is very costly and will cut an entire kitted Demolisher out of your list, but I feel the benefits are too nice to pass up.

Think, if you will, of the devestating accuracy of not just of 4 str8 ap3 pieplates, but 4 Twin-Linked pieplates, not to mention allowing yourself to reroll 1s on your ace and HQ. This will ensure if you drop that pieplate on that squad of marines they are going down rather than most likely scattering off and needing to waste another tank's shot to take down that squad. Since your tanks will be moving you'll have to roll 2 distance die ensuring that if it doesn't hit it will most likely scatter completely off the target, having the ability to counteract that and roll again to possibly get a hit is very strong. Not to mention the Exterminator, if I believe correctly 14 shots will be hitting at 78% instead of 66% with bs4.

I also play necrons extensively with my AC and have found that the Destroyer Tank Hunter works best in the Ace slot as it can handily take down a Monolith at range, and instakills heavy destroyers frome range. Exterminators also do quite well at taking down destroyers. The warriors and even more dangerous the Immortals are quite a danger with so many gauss shots but they will have to footslog so you won't have to worry about them until turn 3 usually, unless your opponent is smart and uses the teleportation on the lith, but that eliminates it's wonderful lascannon pieplate. And if you are trying for phase out nothing works better than 6 russes with ace gunners hitting with every pieplate, even if he uses lords with orbs, just wipe the whole squad out with a pieplate, use an exterminator to kill the remnants and badabing and phase out comes fairly quickly.

[Krunek]

Actually,the benefit at the moment is that im planning to have 2 demolishers...I don´t own the models at this time.This would mean I´d have to buy one tank less...
   I wasn´t serious bout that,I´ll buy them anyway....
Perhaps there is a solution to your little despute(I´ve read a few old topics on pros and cons of Ace gunners),he disagrees on me taking any sentinals,you advice on takin Ace gunners,he´s against it...
  What if I drop 3 sentinals,and take Ace gunners for some tanks instead?

So the list(after consideration) is as it stands now:
 Armoured company

HQ
 Command tank  pts
 LR Exterminator
 Turret mounted Autocannon twin linked
 Hull mounted Heavy Bolter
 Sponson Heavy bolters
 Pintle Mounted H.Stubber
 smoke launchers                                                                                   
                                  257 pts
Elites
 Tank Ace   
 LR Vanquisher                 
 Turret mounted Vanquisher battle cannon
 Co axial storm bolter
 Hull mounted lasscannon
 HB Sponsons     
                   260
 Troops

  LR Battle tank                              LR Battle Tank   
  Turret mounted Battle cannon                Turret mounted Battle Cannon
  Hull mounted lascannon                      Hull mounted Lascannon 
  Sponson Heavy Bolters                       Sponson Heavy Bolters                   
                         165 pts                                         165pts

  LR Battle Tank 140 pts                      LR Battle Tank   
  Turret mounted Battle cannon                Turret mounted Battle cannon
  Hull mounted HB                              Hull mounted HB   
  Sponson Heavy bolters                       Sponson Heavy Bolters 
                         155 pts                                        155 pts





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      1177
Heavy support

 LR Demolisher   
 Turret mounted Demolisher cannon
 Hull mounted lascannon                    X2
 Plasma cannon sponsons
                           175
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                     1500 pts
 So by dropping a LRBT(I like demolishers-they stay ) 165 pts is freed up,meaning 6 tanks get Ace gunners.10 pts left for Ace sponsor gunners on the command tank...


Do not double post. Please use the modify button instead, thank you.

~Goyder

[Goyder]

I know Goyder and I have discussed this in the past, and he vehemently opposes doctrines, but I reccomend trying out Ace Gunners on all of your tanks. It is very costly and will cut an entire kitted Demolisher out of your list, but I feel the benefits are too nice to pass up.

Foul daemon of doctrines, I demand you leave this thread! Shoo! Out with ye hertical ideals! By the Nine Divines I cast you assunder! 

Think, if you will, of the devestating accuracy of not just of 4 str8 ap3 pieplates, but 4 Twin-Linked pieplates, not to mention allowing yourself to reroll 1s on your ace and HQ. This will ensure if you drop that pieplate on that squad of marines they are going down rather than most likely scattering off and needing to waste another tank's shot to take down that squad. Since your tanks will be moving you'll have to roll 2 distance die ensuring that if it doesn't hit it will most likely scatter completely off the target, having the ability to counteract that and roll again to possibly get a hit is very strong. Not to mention the Exterminator, if I believe correctly 14 shots will be hitting at 78% instead of 66% with bs4.

I feel you may be another thats been taken in by doctrines because it allows you to fight your main opponent more effeciently, but not everybody fights against just one opponent.  Yes, you get the added bonus of a 10%+ percantage in accuracy, but you lose out on so much firing effeciency! More tanks = more effecient firepower. And you need effecient firepower to allow your AC to do well. Although I feel there is no point in tackling this again becuase we both wont budge on our positions.

So by dropping a LRBT(I like demolishers-they stay  ) 165 pts is freed up,meaning 6 tanks get Ace gunners.10 pts left for Ace sponsor gunners on the command tank...

Keep the extra tank! I believe if I was to crunch the numbers (not bloody likely however, I hate Mathshammer 40k) I believe Simpsonias idea and my idea would pretty much even up, except it doesnt take into account loses to enemy fire! Maths cant equate the better chances of securing objectives when you have more tanks on the board etc...

I've played with them, i've tested them, doctrines just aren't worth it. A good list, solid deployment and smart playing will outshine any doctrine.

And your list, as it stands is perfectly fine as it is. You have 8 Tanks in 1500pts, thats a solid effort.

[Krunek]

Considering the fact that (for example) my DE list "made for every game" (jocking,but it did win tournaments...had 21 dark lances in it,and cc units ,and a solid HQ,and 11 vehicles....on the other hand that´s a different story(DE have no good weapons except dark lances S8 Ap2,desintergrators S7 Ap2/blast  and blasters S8 Ap2)...numbers are important.
  Homehow...that being my first army,I imagine myself playing vs such an army and try to compare quantity vs quality there...
  So a list with 7 tanks would perhaps do good.A list with 8,would do better...for I would´t be firing and battlecannons...wha t´s the use-they haven´t got armour anyway.Just go cheap and be trigger happy
   Re-rolls on some tanks could be useful.Demolishers for example.Or Destroyer tank hunter which hits on a 3+,and re-rolls "1". And it kills one armoured target per round.
Wraithlords,carnifexes,hive tyrants-you name it
D. princes...

  And of course...tanks.

I just remembered something.
The HQ is fine as it is.There is the option to make it a bit different:
Hull mounted Lasscannon,and HKM missile..
Firepower will be lesser,but diversity greater.Two shots with autocannon,1 lascannon and a single HKM shot...hm...
  Hitting the side armur ....or not

[Goyder]

I imagine myself playing vs such an army and try to compare quantity vs quality there.

Quantity is a Qaulity all on its own.

The Imperial Guard isnt know for its quality. Sure, we have some kick ass elite choices, but on the whole the Imperial Guard relies solidly on quantity of arms to win the day. I feel that sometimes people take doctrines to try and increase the Quality of their Guardsmen (taking carapace (unless its purely for style), sharpshooters etc..) when in eccence, it's never going to work out that well becuase Guard are meant to have numbers backing them. My mech list is an example of this. I have 67 models on the board, which then have 7 Chimera's backing them and another 3 LRV. Numbers, not quality win me battles, the fact that I can fire 7 x 3 Heavy Bolter shots and then 7 x 3Multilaser shots into something wins the day for me. And its the same for every other Guard player when the put 30+ Heavy Weapons on the board.

As I've said, its your army. You make the choice. I've put across my view and I've debated it several times. You are well within your right to say "Bugger goyder, im doing it anyway", thats cool. I'm not forking out the money to buy your tanks in the end either so I'm also within my right to say "Bugger Krunek, he can go do whatever the hell he likes".

Try experimenting, proxy your army if you have to, but see what works better for you. Your own experiance will outshine any ammount of debate that myself and others can do.