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Author Topic: And the spires came crashing down (game-thread)  (Read 15094 times)

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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: And the spires came crashing down (game-thread)
« Reply #140 on: January 15, 2013, 03:03:42 PM »
I'm in agreement with Khemri. The ending was too abrupt, felt forced, and relied heavily on our characters being only incidental nobodies ("5 Guardsmen, 1 Marine"), rather than actual, and interesting, characters ("Zhar, Grame, Kaltos, Correll, Calne, Dahn") -- which, in my mind, completely invalidates the point of using those characters to tell a story.

As such, a poor ending led to an otherwise interesting plot being very unsatisfying.

While I'm not of the opinion that our characters should've had an easy time of it, I'd much rather the story had actually gone somewhere and given us more closure than "game over".

Offline Rasmus

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Re: And the spires came crashing down (game-thread)
« Reply #141 on: January 16, 2013, 03:05:22 AM »
I am sorry you feel that way. I did try to drag the ending out, giving you the chance to, and information enough to, alter your headlong charge into something else, as the odds were simply too overwhelming to survive, but you decided to press on.
As for not naming your characters by name it was just math trying to illustrate the odds, not sum up your achievements or individuality. Indeed, that is part of the problem; by thinking of your characters are something more than a guardsman or space marine, you risk devaluing the threats and inflating your own sense of power and chances. This is, sadly, a product of this format, of all forum play (and several other kinds of these games, but that's the topic for another conversation) and when stacking difficulty, this is sometimes the results.

Clearly, you didn't think you could lose. I could have been clearer on telling you that you most definitely could, and for that I apologize, but the consequences were dictated by your actions, your choices.

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Offline Heretek

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Re: And the spires came crashing down (game-thread)
« Reply #142 on: January 16, 2013, 05:20:20 AM »
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I am sorry you feel that way. I did try to drag the ending out, giving you the chance to, and information enough to, alter your headlong charge into something else, as the odds were simply too overwhelming to survive, but you decided to press on.

What information was that, then? "You see a dozen mooks you've handily dispatched before, and a couple of what are clearly bosses"? I don't recall anything along the lines of a warning from you.

Quote
As for not naming your characters by name it was just math trying to illustrate the odds, not sum up your achievements or individuality. Indeed, that is part of the problem; by thinking of your characters are something more than a guardsman or space marine, you risk devaluing the threats and inflating your own sense of power and chances.

Gosh, yes, why would we think of ourselves as heroes in a roleplaying game? Forget Battle Brother Zhar Kalgron, the Traveller, veteran of a hundred battles against xeno and traitor alike, with his tribally scrimshawed armour and mighty, ancient weapons. I should, of course, have been thinking of Tactical Marine #4, with average stats and nothing out of the ordinary.

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Clearly, you didn't think you could lose. I could have been clearer on telling you that you most definitely could, and for that I apologize, but the consequences were dictated by your actions, your choices.

By 'could have been clearer' do you mean 'could actually have told us anything'? None of us had any idea what we were up against, how dangerous they were, or what they were armed with. Which I find particularly irritating, since the epithet you gave me was 'been everywhere, seen everything'. Of course we attacked, we didn't know what we were fighting! Given that we took out the first three without any real fuss, I'm not sure how you expected us to feel in danger, or that these were insurmountable odds.

But the thing that hacks me off the most is that you just killed us. Flat out. Game over. Fade to black.

I'm not averse to characters dying. Some of my favourite moments in games have been when a character fell; maybe selling their life dearly to buy their comrades time; sacrificing themselves to strike a killing blow; or even just succumbing after a hard-fought, epic battle against a superior foe. So I hope you understand when I say that I would have at least appreciated more than 'you get stabbed in the back and die'. Which is practically a novel compared to what you gave the poor bloody Guardsmen (which was nothing). This was just 'Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies'.

In fact, I think this is your most telling comment:

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If this had been a movie then one or two of you might have lived to struggle on, but this format does not lend itself to something like that.

It is a movie, or it might as well be. I don't know why I need to tell you this, but people play roleplaying games because they want to be heroes. We want to struggle on against overwhelming odds, and triumph over them. Yes, we should be in danger. Yes, we should stumble. And, yes, we might even fail. But you should at least give us the chance to do those things. Just a flat 'nope, you die' is not good enough. Not by a long shot. It's not something I'd pull on the players in the tabletop games I GM, and it's not something I expect to be pulled on me.

So, yeah, not at all impressed. Particularly from someone who published their own gaming system, I would have expected better.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: And the spires came crashing down (game-thread)
« Reply #143 on: January 16, 2013, 05:49:47 AM »
Sorry you feel that way.

One of the major issues with the inclusive forum games where re-rolling characters is pretty uncommon is the all-or-nothing of group composition. Either all live or all die, as removing a player, or several (but not all) players from the game leads to gripe and trouble.

In a movie, where no such considerations have to be made, or even a tabletop game, or game where players might return in another form, this is a lot less of an issue. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned a movie, not whether or not you were portraying heroes.
You were, just not the kind that could take on 2:1 odds with no plan and come out on top.

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Offline Killskin

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Re: And the spires came crashing down (game-thread)
« Reply #144 on: January 17, 2013, 01:57:33 PM »
And to think, I was disappointed on missing out on getting to play this game. That was the biggest buzzkill I've ever seen. Hardly the demise fit for an Athonian (which is what my character would have been if had caught this game on time).
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Offline Alienscar

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Re: And the spires came crashing down (game-thread)
« Reply #145 on: January 18, 2013, 06:21:58 AM »
That was the biggest buzzkill I've ever seen.

On the other hand I have been reading this thread all the from from sign up and I was just about yelling at my laptop at the players to get out there before they all died. I could see it coming I'm really surprised that they didn't. The only thing I would add is that from Rasmus' descriptions I had no idea that the players were up against Aspect Warriors, Wraithguard & a Farseer. Oh and I really enjoyed some of the character writing. From a spectator point of view kudos to you all I thoroughly enjoyed the game including the end.
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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: And the spires came crashing down (game-thread)
« Reply #146 on: January 18, 2013, 12:35:00 PM »
I was just about yelling at my laptop at the players to get out there before they all died. I could see it coming I'm really surprised that they didn't.
I'm pretty sure we all accepted that the characters weren't coming back, but there's a difference between an actual ending and what we received. In any case, what you're suggesting would've required breaking suspension of disbelief and forcing the characters to all be Dangerously Genre Savvy, itself necessitating the total derailment of the story and probably resulting in the exact same ending happening sooner.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: And the spires came crashing down (game-thread)
« Reply #147 on: January 18, 2013, 04:32:49 PM »
I'm pretty sure we all accepted that the characters weren't coming back, but there's a difference between an actual ending and what we received. In any case, what you're suggesting would've required breaking suspension of disbelief and forcing the characters to all be Dangerously Genre Savvy, itself necessitating the total derailment of the story and probably resulting in the exact same ending happening sooner.

Or just tactically wise enough to see that headlong charges into 2:1 odds are seldom beneficial to one's general health.
However, I think this is about done. I had fun, hope you guys did too, and if you didn't then that's ok too. Lessons learned and all that.

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