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Author Topic: From my cold, dead hands...?  (Read 287 times)

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Offline Kage2020

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From my cold, dead hands...?
« on: October 23, 2021, 11:15:05 PM »
As I catch up with the new materials I cannot help but wonder about those bits of the background that we don't want to let go whether they are official or fan constructs.

For example, as I read through Gav Thorpe's Eldar books I'm kind of clutching to my old interpretation of the Eldar, how the Path works, questions of technology, and so on.

What do you clutch to your cold, dead hands?

In good faith, I thought that I would offer one. I'm not quite sure where it's from my "cold, dead hands" but have that as you will.

I'm still really fascinated by the idea that the Emperor is a whole bunch of related entities:

  • The Corpse: This is the physical remains of the Emperor--a mind bound to his original intent. The "shaman synergy" remains, guided by his will.
  • The Child: The vast power of the Emperor was linked to that of the Star Child.
  • The Twin: The warp is the mirror of the matterium. As Slaanesh was created from the excess of the aeldari, The Twin is the being that is wrought by the Imperium in its own excess--the purges, the hatred, the vengeance.

For funzies, The Twin is actually the 40k equiivalent of Malal.

I could probably post about the Eldar, next, especially given the new information. :D

Posts merged because the forum rules on double posting also fulfil the criteria of this topic ;).
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 02:17:53 PM by Irisado »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: From my cold, dead hands...?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2021, 10:48:44 AM »
I've only got one:

Magnus did nothing wrong.

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Re: From my cold, dead hands...?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2021, 02:18:58 PM »
Harlequins are a rare unit that are rarely seen in Craftworld armies.  This one is actually still holds true, but it stopped being emphasised sufficiently in the lore quite some time ago.
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: From my cold, dead hands...?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2021, 10:20:32 PM »
I kinda prefer the older, unknown, horror-inspired Necrons. They don't exactly make for great POV characters and are probably not as interesting to play as, but I really liked the idea of merging AI and replicated minds and the potential that lay there, plus making them kinda untouchable on a wider, strategic level (kinda how they come off in the Battlefleet Gothic tabletop version).

The new version does have a lot going for it with active personalities and characters, so fair enough. They are horribly overdesigned though. The cables everywhere is too much, as is, imho, all the gilding/detailing.

EDIT: I also prefer the version of the Council of Nikaea and the formation of the Inquisition that existed before HH novels covered those things. The version of the Council in the novels has the Emperor ban ALL psykers in the Legions, not just sorcery, which is indescribeably dumb (astropaths, navigators, librarians, hello?), and the version of the Inquisition forming is one of those cases where they took something that was described as forming gradually, over time, by many different groups coalescing through complex interaction, and replaced it with "one day someone started the inquisition". I get why the latter might make for better storytelling, but it's not my preferred form of worldbuilding.

Aight, I won't whinge more now. :P
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 10:46:31 PM by Sir_Godspeed »

Offline magenb

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Re: From my cold, dead hands...?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2021, 11:52:16 PM »
For example, as I read through Gav Thorpe's Eldar books I'm kind of clutching to my old interpretation of the Eldar, how the Path works, questions of technology, and so on.

I take you mean "The path" series by Gav which is excellent, the Pheonix Lord books are also worth reading. The Ynnari books, although well written and did flesh out Eldar a bit felt rushed towards their end, and I really didn't like that gem of Khaine thing (phrased in a way to avoid spoilers) as it invalidates the point of the young king.


I kinda prefer the older, unknown, horror-inspired Necrons.

Yeah I got to agree, for me the old Necron's made certain amount of sense given their lore, bent on the destruction of all life, now they feel more like a chaotic neutral element.

The lore feels like we are a few books away from Imperium, Tau , Eldar and Necrons holding hands as they slap chaos back into the warp, then route orks into helping them clear the Nids off.

Offline Kage2020

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Re: From my cold, dead hands...?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2021, 04:20:40 AM »
FWIW, I was thinking primarily about background issues rather than wargame issues.

I've only got one:

Magnus did nothing wrong.
Tell me more.


I kinda prefer the older, unknown, horror-inspired Necrons.
Errr... You're going to have to tell me more again. :D

I also prefer the version of the Council of Nikaea and the formation of the Inquisition that existed before HH novels covered those things.
Wow. I'm out of touch. I kina like the notion of the Inquisition being formed at one time. The gradual version makes less sense to me?

I take you mean "The path" series by Gav which is excellent, the Pheonix Lord books are also worth reading. The Ynnari books, although well written and did flesh out Eldar a bit felt rushed towards their end, and I really didn't like that gem of Khaine thing (phrased in a way to avoid spoilers) as it invalidates the point of the young king.
I've read them all. I still clutch to my interpretation of the Path even while I reasonably enjoyed the novels.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: From my cold, dead hands...?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2021, 08:35:30 AM »
I'm happy with the Lore as it is, and I'm not terribly attached to the past, or things which were changed.

I'm more interested in exploring lesser explored areas of the existing setting. I'd also love a follow-up series to the Siege of Terra about The Scouring.

I would like to see more written about the differences between the Imperium Nihilus, and Imperium Sanctus. I really liked the book "Spear of the Emperor" as it gave an account of how it was for imperial forces fighting on the far side of the Great Rift, which was really interesting.


Quote
Quote
Quote from: Wyddr on Yesterday at 10:48:44 AM
I've only got one:

Magnus did nothing wrong.
Tell me more.

This is a Meme based on the Horus Heresy series. Council of Nikea was a ruling by the Emperor (before the Heresy),  which forbade the use of psykers in the legions. Magnus, wasn't a huge fan of this (as that was the Thousand Son's thing).

Magnus learned of Horus's betrayal early, and used psychic projections to warn the emperor. However, in doing so he broke open a gateway to the webway into the Imperial Palace, which was infested with demons.

The Emperor ordered a taskforce to bring Magnus back to Terra to stand account for his transgressions, but due to the manipulation of Horus and the Sons of Horus, things escalated quickly. Prospero was shattered by the wolves, the Thousand Sons crippled and Magnus was broken by Russ. Only through using psychic abilities to teleport to safety, did Magnus and any of his legion escape alive. Magnus had no choice but to then side with Horus and his side of the rebellion.

Quote
Quote from: Sir_Godspeed on Yesterday at 10:20:32 PM
I kinda prefer the older, unknown, horror-inspired Necrons.
Quote
Errr... You're going to have to tell me more again. :D

Before 5th edition, the Necrons had a lovecraftian sort of vibe to them. Unknowable horrors from the past, with no personality, lead into battle by the C'tan (immensely powerful god-like beings).

5th edition codex gave them named characters, personalities, dynasties, and changed the lore of the C'tan, in that they were not actually the gods leading them to battle, but imprisoned shards of such beings being lead to battle.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 08:40:14 AM by Lord of Winter and War »
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: From my cold, dead hands...?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2021, 11:10:38 PM »
The main reason I prefer the version of the Inquisition forming from the Thorian Sourcebook from the Inquisitor RPG was that it went into detail about the different philosophies that shaped it early on. It was an interesting read that went beyond "root out heresy!", and delved into what path Emperor-worship would take ("okay, but what IS heresy?"). It wasn't codified yet, at that point, so you had different schools of thought battling it out, sometimes literally. The proto-Inquisitors were various cliques of Imperial officials drawn from different branches of the Imperium, and it was more like an ideological conflict pursued by informal networks.

Eventually, they were formalized, and some level of orthodoxy of belief was established by the Ecclesiarchy. Clearly, by that point, those who had been active in inquisitorial pursuits had been growing in power, like mini-juntas or a coalescing secret police, or a party-inner circle kinda deal, that just had to be made explicit and given a formal structure and jurisdiction to stabilize the political order. Inherent to that origin story is that things could have gone differently with regards to their beliefs. And that as times change, the beliefs change too. The Thorians, for example, who became almost mainstream after Sebastian Thor defeated Goge Vandire in the 36th Millennium, were originally drawing on ideas from exiled Imperials who had been deemed heretical for believing that there should be efforts to revive the Emperor. For a long time it was completely unheard of to suggest that anything should be done about the status quo. Then suddenly, it was possible to discuss it. It's neat history, imho.

The version we have now more seems to be that Malcador gathered a bunch of people to do black ops for him, and work in tandem with surviving loyalist marines from the Traitor Legions (who would become the Deathwatch or Grey Knights, I forget). It's not a terrible backstory, it's probably good pulp fun. It's just... less interesting to me.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 11:15:15 PM by Sir_Godspeed »

Offline Kage2020

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Re: From my cold, dead hands...?
« Reply #8 on: November 1, 2021, 10:37:41 PM »
I'm happy with the Lore as it is, and I'm not terribly attached to the past, or things which were changed.
Each to their own. This is not a way of dismissing what you're saying, but rather saying, "That's what you like? Cool!"

5th edition codex gave them named characters, personalities, dynasties, and changed the lore of the C'tan, in that they were not actually the gods leading them to battle, but imprisoned shards of such beings being lead to battle.
I think that I have less of a problem with the diminishment of the C'tan than the "standardisation" of the Necrons. You could have had the former without the latter.

The main reason I prefer the version of the Inquisition forming from the Thorian Sourcebook from the Inquisitor RPG was that it went into detail about the different philosophies that shaped it early on.
Yeah, that as a pretty cool ay of dealing with things, though I have always felt that pulling the Ordo Malleus out of the closet to balance with Hereticus and Xenos did a great deal of injustice to them.

Horses for courses, and all that, but it made me recreate secret societies within the Inquisition to get some of that flavour back. (In my head-canon that is.)

I guess there is some latitude there given the Emperor's involvement in the creation of the Inquisition?

It's not a terrible backstory, it's probably good pulp fun. It's just... less interesting to me.
Aye. FWIW, as a general rule I've always seemed to resonate more with fan interpretations than what gets published. It's almost like the fans have it and GW cannot use it because someone else has already come up with it!? ;)

(Tongue-in-cheek, here...)

 


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