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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Hello 10th Edition
« on: March 26, 2023, 10:35:00 PM »
Has it been three years? Seems to be a few good changes like reverting to universal rules and reducing complexity. Not a great fan of the fluff changes but hello the Lion once again. Please leave Farsight alone as it was already a huge mess. Any who...
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2023, 08:32:56 AM »
If they severely cut down on AP (on par with AoS's Rend, where almost no one has better than a -2), improve cover substantially, and cut down or eliminate re-rolls of all kinds, I will be very pleased.

The presence of stratagems or rules-bloat was never the problem, in my opinion, but a symptom of the problem, which is that everything and everyone in the game is too good at what they do. 9th was in many ways the most balanced edition (everybody can win!), but that's only because the game became less of a strategic exercise and more of a fireworks display. The only question that ever really mattered was "can you see it," and that's dumb. 

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2023, 09:18:12 PM »
Draft spoilers are turning up everywhere which I won't link to yet the author videos are promising major (salute) changes in streamlining. The Boarding Party stuff would be better handled if they didn't sell out almost instantaneously. Lots more rules being available free digital also helps with the needing an entire wheelie bag of books fatigue.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #3 on: April 5, 2023, 12:50:51 AM »
If they severely cut down on AP (on par with AoS's Rend, where almost no one has better than a -2), improve cover substantially, and cut down or eliminate re-rolls of all kinds, I will be very pleased.

The presence of stratagems or rules-bloat was never the problem, in my opinion, but a symptom of the problem, which is that everything and everyone in the game is too good at what they do. 9th was in many ways the most balanced edition (everybody can win!), but that's only because the game became less of a strategic exercise and more of a fireworks display. The only question that ever really mattered was "can you see it," and that's dumb.

not a fan of uncosted force multipliers.. so not a fan of strats as they were, leave that stuff for narrative games, or shift it to war gear that's point costed would have been a better way to handle it. The two strats that have been shown for 10th aren't that overwhelming which is a good sign, but so was the strats when 8th first hit... so might be fun until the first codex drops lol.

I would agree the game loses a lot by just being able to nuke things, but that seems to be part of "speeding" up the game. If you've played other table top games, this seems to be common trend unfortunately, so I don't think GW are going to move away from it any time soon.

It would be a nice change to have the game play more like chess, where you activate single units, rather than entire armies.



Offline Wyddr

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #4 on: April 5, 2023, 05:25:40 PM »
Well, from my experiences playing Sigmar, for instance, the game still manages to be a game of maneuvering while still taking things off the board fairly often.

Also, all those editions where 40k took less time and tabling opponents was unusual - what about doing that again?

Anyway, nothing I'm seeing from the previews suggests something other than "point-and-click" gameplay. Same prevalence of AP, same buckets of shots, more-or-less same durability. Very interested to see if cover gets a boost - that's huge, imho.

But yeah, if their understanding of "speeding up play" is a very expensive game of Hungry, Hungry Hippos, then I'm probably not playing much 10th ed.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #5 on: April 6, 2023, 06:28:30 AM »
Seems like we may see a return of some USRs based on the datasheet we've seen, which might make it easier to understand what every faction can do
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #6 on: April 6, 2023, 10:52:33 AM »
Seems like we may see a return of some USRs based on the datasheet we've seen, which might make it easier to understand what every faction can do
Which makes sense because everyone just referred to similar rules by USR names.

You made can make a roll to ignore wounds on a 6+?  That's Feel No Pain.  Coming in from reserves anywhere on the table at least 9" away from an enemy?  Deep Striking.  Can't be wounded better than a 4+?  Transhuman.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #7 on: April 6, 2023, 07:35:51 PM »
Seems like we may see a return of some USRs based on the datasheet we've seen, which might make it easier to understand what every faction can do
Which makes sense because everyone just referred to similar rules by USR names.

You made can make a roll to ignore wounds on a 6+?  That's Feel No Pain.  Coming in from reserves anywhere on the table at least 9" away from an enemy?  Deep Striking.  Can't be wounded better than a 4+?  Transhuman.

Yeah, all the players were already using these words. Clearly there's a space for it in the rules given this, lol
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Offline Calamity

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #8 on: April 7, 2023, 07:01:09 AM »
If 10th is anything like AoS I’ll be back playing 40K in no time.  It’s looking good so far, nicely streamlined. 

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #9 on: April 7, 2023, 04:11:35 PM »
As more info keeps coming out, I keep getting more and more excited about this new edition.  I think it's going to bring the game to a really good place (until codexes are released that break everything again lol).  Honestly, I don't think there has ever been an edition change that hasn't improved the game.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #10 on: April 7, 2023, 04:49:18 PM »
I'm sure it will be an improvement over 9th. Nothing I've seen so far has addressed the core problems I have with the game, though.

For instance: they say "rerolls are a lot less common" and in the same exact article explain how the most popular faction in the game gets to re-roll everything against one unit every turn.

Ridiculous to the point of self-parody.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #11 on: April 7, 2023, 06:25:07 PM »
I'm sure it will be an improvement over 9th. Nothing I've seen so far has addressed the core problems I have with the game, though.

For instance: they say "rerolls are a lot less common" and in the same exact article explain how the most popular faction in the game gets to re-roll everything against one unit every turn.

Ridiculous to the point of self-parody.
Making something less common doesn't mean it won't still be a thing.  If Chapter Masters, Captains, and Lieutenants are losing their reroll auras, that is a pretty big difference.  I'm assuming we are also losing re-rolls from stratagems, warlord traits, psychic powers, and litanies.  Instead of being able to reroll against everything, I can only reroll against one unit.  Once that unit is gone, I'm done with rerolls.  Considering how marines are supposed to work, that one unit should be removed pretty quick in the game and is likely the biggest threat.  Keep in mind that in the current AoO rules, I can easily make a Dark Angel list where I have three characters giving full rerolls to three hard hitting units:
  • Azrael to give re-rolls to Helblasters
  • Belial to give re-rolls to Deathwing Terminators
  • Sammael to give re-rolls to Ravenwing Black Knights
I still have 640pts left in the list to flesh it out a bit more. A

I will gladly give that all up for something reasonable like Oath of the Moment
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

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"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #12 on: April 7, 2023, 07:36:56 PM »
I very firmly insist that re-rolls break the game and I'd like to see them gone. Pointing out how bafflingly broken Dark Angels are doesn't really dissuade me of that opinion.

There is no way re-rolls are going to be restricted to just marines for the simple fact that people are going to *howl* about Oath of Moment the second 10th releases. Eldar probably already have them, and 2-3 codexes down the line we'll be right back where we started, all because the 40k design team couldn't think of a better special ability to give marines besides "auto-delete 1 unit per round."

The problem with the game is that everything is teeth and nothing has the defense to cope. I've seen exactly zilch that changes that, and so the game is going to wind up a streamlined version of the same brainless enterprise.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #13 on: April 7, 2023, 08:14:01 PM »
while I think it would be bad game design, I think it would be interesting to see mathematically how things would work if units had defensive abilities like "foes shooting at this unit re-roll 6s to hit" or something similar heh. of course GW would quite reasonably never go for something like that
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #14 on: April 8, 2023, 10:32:42 AM »
while I think it would be bad game design, I think it would be interesting to see mathematically how things would work if units had defensive abilities like "foes shooting at this unit re-roll 6s to hit" or something similar heh. of course GW would quite reasonably never go for something like that

That stands to make things too complicated, yeah.

I've already listed my wishlist for 40k, but to reiterate:
-> No more re-rolls (like, at all).
-> Improved cover (so it actually matters)
-> reduction in AP across the board. Like, absolutely no small arms have AP at all, mid-range guns (autocannons, plasma, etc.) get a -1, antitank weapons (lascannons, melta) get a -2. End of.

I *would* like to see/keep reactive stratagems a la Auspex Scan and Take Cover and so on, or reactive movement like Age of Sigmar's Reform order. Those we might actually see, maybe.   

Shooting is just too Yhwh-condemneded powerful. It needs a colossal nerf, in my opinion, before the game can get interesting again. Right now it's very much the case that all your thinking happens before the game is played. You show up with your army and then point-and-click and it's dull. 

Offline Calamity

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #15 on: April 9, 2023, 08:52:57 AM »
Agreed on ditching rerolls and keeping rend under control.  Maybe another idea could have been to implement an IGYG system for shooting, like that game Bolt Action.

Maybe 3 universal react stratagem; one lets a unit shot at to immediately shoot back, another is a take cover mechanic, and the third a redeploy one.  You could do each one once per turn.

Now I’m getting that game design itch again.  It’s been a long time.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2023, 12:58:35 PM »
Independent Characters are back, baby!

My favorite change so far.

I'm also liking raising the Toughness ceiling for vehicles by a lot, as well. One of the side-effects of the AP penalty system when coupled with "everything damages everything" was the loss of the rock-paper-scissors relationship that used to be the underpinnings of the game's entire strategy - there were just so many ways around it - and this looks like a step in the right direction.

If they make cover actually useful again, I might change my relentless negativity into cautious optimism.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 01:33:32 PM by Wyddr »

Offline Calamity

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2023, 03:39:46 PM »
Oh wow, they brought that back?  And it actually looks simple and easy to use?  Now I’m very excited!

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2023, 11:43:50 AM »
New weapons rules!

Say hello (again) to Rending Assault Cannons!

Also, a welcome return to a version of the old twin-linking rules.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Hello 10th Edition
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2023, 11:35:57 AM »
I'm starting to like more and more of the information that is coming out.  It seems like 10th is going to be a blend of the 3rd-7th era rules and the 8th/9th era rules.  I'd still like a more clear work at how attacks work, but I'm patient.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

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"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

 


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