Topic: The Problem with terminators

[Gal'rgae Neverborne]

No Structure yet so may come across little ranty.

I'm a Deathwing player and rather dedicated but terminators are bunk.

2+/5++ and 2 wounds sound good, I've played a couple of games with the better bolters rule and they're still a non-competitive choice. It's so sad that one of the most iconic units has been regulated out of competitive since 2nd 3rd edition (with a small window when you could take Deathwing terminators as Troops with storm shields in a ~6 month period between a FAQ and new codex).

Honestly, I can't think of another (squad) unit which has been so constantly bad for so long, bearing in mind there are SIX(loyalist) kits, Regular, Assault, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights.- (I think GK may have been good at some point)

I heard a rumour that Termies may be getting +1 W and/OR +1 T (apply mountains of salt), which I think would move some only to "Usable" in a competitive sense not certainly not an auto-include.

The problem is there are far too many mortal wounds flying around, far too many 2+ damage weapons and far too many negative modifiers.

In 8th units either need to be good, probably actually OP, or contribute to command points or they're just not really worth taking. It feels like GW have been on the troops train for 3 editions and these Veterans are an unfortunate casualty that ambition, along with the aforementioned.

It's just well sad...

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

I absolutely agree that Terminators are suffering.  Even with the drastic point reduction they got, and the bolter rules, they still aren't up to snuff.

Hell, the only way I have found to make them work is to have a ten man unit deep strike beside Belial and use Deathwing Assault; and even then they aren't effective.

I would agree that 3 wounds would definitely help, but keeping them at T4 would make sense to me.  If you bump them to T5, then they become Custodians... and we already have those.

[Blazinghand]

One of the core issues is the change to the way the AP system works, from a threshold system to a modifier system. Sv2+ is extremely good in a threshold system, basically a terminator unit can shrug off autocannon fire and heavy bolter fire no problemo in the olden days. Nowadays, a heavy bolter actually is pretty decent against terminators, because it modifies the save.

I've seen Blightlord Terminators do pretty well from time to time, but they're sort of a special case. Good toughness, good armor save, a great invulnerable save, and disgustingly resilient, make them in a class of their own for durability.

[Gal'rgae Neverborne]

Termies are usable in 5th, you know, back when there was a risk vs reward factor in the game. We still play 5th ed and termies can be a real problem for my CWE in the hands of a clever player.


As for 8th ed...

The hay-day for the Terminator was actually 4th edition where Assault Cannons were statistically more likely to kill a Land Raider than a Lascannon was.  Lysander-wing was the new hotness and it was disgusting.

I don't think either of these are accurate by "Competitive" while it doesn't need to be an adepticon or equivalent winner per se. But they would need to be realistic in that environment i.e table 1. They've never been that since 3rd edition (included) other than the deathwing build i mentioned.   

I would agree that 3 wounds would definitely help, but keeping them at T4 would make sense to me.  If you bump them to T5, then they become Custodians... and we already have those.

While i agree with the overall point you're making with this upgrade I don't think they would be playable in a "competitive" and far from an auto-include.

The command point system means that players fish for these and HQ/Troops are the most economical way and the only other units that get included are the OP/abusable ones. This is another brick in the wall unto of what we've already discussed

[Wyddr]

Honestly? I think we should go back to letting them save on 2 dice like in the ancient days of 2nd Edition. When you're taking a 2+ or 3+ on 2D6, AP modifiers just don't matter that much anymore.

Other alternatives:
-Let them re-roll all armor saves
-Allow them to ignore AP up to a certain threshold (which might be another way of saying "increase their invul to a 4+ or 3+ as standard)
-Reduce the size of their teleportation bubble to 7" or something

Beyond that, I'll say that this problem *isn't* just limited to terminators. The whole edition is stacked against elite units of any stripe. Any unit that is short on wounds and relies on its armor save for salvation is suffering big time.

Point reductions are not helpful or even good, since the whole point of Terminators is that there are precious few of them carving through the hordes. But hordes are so damned good right now and there is no way elites can survive.

So they need to be made drastically more deadly and proportionally expensive.

[Gal'rgae Neverborne]

Honestly? I think we should go back to letting them save on 2 dice like in the ancient days of 2nd Edition. When you're taking a 2+ or 3+ on 2D6, AP modifiers just don't matter that much anymore.

Other alternatives:
-Let them re-roll all armor saves
-Allow them to ignore AP up to a certain threshold (which might be another way of saying "increase their invul to a 4+ or 3+ as standard)
-Reduce the size of their teleportation bubble to 7" or something

Beyond that, I'll say that this problem *isn't* just limited to terminators. The whole edition is stacked against elite units of any stripe. Any unit that is short on wounds and relies on its armor save for salvation is suffering big time.

Point reductions are not helpful or even good, since the whole point of Terminators is that there are precious few of them carving through the hordes. But hordes are so damned good right now and there is no way elites can survive.

So they need to be made drastically more deadly and proportionally expensive.

I do think that Terminators have been in this situation longer than most if not all other units. But.... other than that!

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

The issue I have with a lot of suggestions is that they bring Terminators in line with Custodes, which they should not be.

A basic Terminator (bolter and fist) is 34pts.  Keeping the same point cost, but bumping them up to 3 wounds makes them much more viable.  They are no longer being one shot by a lucky autocannon hit or overcharged plasma.

Increase their toughness / invulnerable save as well, and they are approaching the level of Custodians.  A custodian with Guardian Spear is 52pts.  Change their save to what it was in 2nd edition where you rolled a 3+ save on 2d6, or allowed them to reroll their saves, and that will put them past custodians.

I am a firm believer that +1 wound helps them in their survivability.  As it stands right now, the basic bolter requires 36 shots to kill a terminator.  If you give them an additional wound, that number jumps to 54.  Against Autocannons, they go from needing 13 shots to needing 27.  Plasma goes from needing an average 2 shots to needing 4.  Those are huge increases to their survival.  If they're Deathwing or Wolfguard, you have the added bonus of including a few Storm Shields to increasing their tanking against the hard hitting attacks; which helps them stand out as the true elite Terminators that they are.

To make them worth even more, from an offensive standpoint, I would say that you need to add a rule for weapon stabilization so that they do not suffer the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.  Now those Cyclones are a threat on a tough platform... now those assault cannons will punch holes in swarms.

[Gal'rgae Neverborne]

While I'd agree that +1 wound would help (and weapon stability), I think it's still a far cry away from "Competitive" using the prior mentioned definition for usable in a GT environment. These guys are probably close to point-for-point the least effective thing in the Dex and need a lot more help.

Though I am persuaded that they shouldn't be clones or nearly clones Custodes.

I'm opposed to the idea of "it would take X number Y to kill Z" in any situation. Due to the plethora of force multipliers, it's not representative to make these calculations anymore.

[magenb]

What about changing it so AP1 and ap2 weapons don't have any effect on the armour roll. This still means anti-tank weapons ap3 and 4 could one shot them, same as previous editions, but will also make them very hard to kill against most infantry.

[Wyddr]

I mean, Custodes could do with being better, too.

I do agree, though, that the easiest fix *army wide* is to give every single unit in the Space Marine Codex +1 wound and +1 attack with no point change whatsoever.

I *still* think in that instance there isn't much of a good reason to take regular terminators. Assault Terminators, though, become reasonably good.

What about changing it so AP1 and ap2 weapons don't have any effect on the armour roll. This still means anti-tank weapons ap3 and 4 could one shot them, same as previous editions, but will also make them very hard to kill against most infantry.

I would agree with this--let them ignore AP -1 weapons makes a lot of sense and then you stop having your terminators mowed down by heavy bolters.

[Gal'rgae Neverborne]

Firstly I know this topic is more than 30 days past the last reply but in context is the 5th most recent post on this board at the time of posting.

Secondly, I know this is a ridiculous question before I ask it. But Terminator by chance improved to a competitive level in the context of a tournament event by any chance in the new codex?

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

No, and I don't think we will see any major changes to them until either the Dark Angels come out, or Chapter Approved drops their points yet again.

[Wyddr]

I think *Deathwatch* Terminators are reasonably good, but that's only because Special Issue Ammunition is amazing when coupled with storm bolters.

As it is, they're too fragile for their cost. I do think you can make TH/SS termies work, but again, cost becomes an issue. Are they good enough for what you have to pay? No.

[Gal'rgae Neverborne]

Honestly, I can't think of another (squad) unit which has been so constantly bad for so long, bearing in mind there are SIX(loyalist) kits, Regular, Assault, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights.- (I think GK may have been good at some point)

Anyone think there's any truth in this?

[Wyddr]

Assault Terminators were quite good in 5th Edition and held their own in 6th/7th (but weren't great).

Standard terminators were great in 2nd Ed, okay in 3rd-5th, and have been generally crap ever since. Too many other units do their job better and a 5+ invul save just isn't much to write home about.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

The hayday for the shooty terminators was definitely 4th edition when you could have a squad of 5 packing two assault cannons when rending was disgustingly good.  Grey Knights were at their peak with Draigo and Paladins in 5th ed.

But generally, no, there aren't many units that have been the butt end of the GW jokes for as long as Terminators.

Frankly, for what they do, I think Terminators won't see the field in their current state unless they dropped to around 25pts a piece for a basic terminator with a fist / bolter.

[Wyddr]

The hayday for the shooty terminators was definitely 4th edition when you could have a squad of 5 packing two assault cannons when rending was disgustingly good.

Oh crap! I forgot about that set-up. The Lysander Wing was pretty damned good back then, yeah!

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

The hayday for the shooty terminators was definitely 4th edition when you could have a squad of 5 packing two assault cannons when rending was disgustingly good.

Oh crap! I forgot about that set-up. The Lysander Wing was pretty damned good back then, yeah!

Oh yeah.  Three squads of 5 and two command squads, each with two assault cannons that were statistically more likely to kill a Land Raider than a Lascannon was!

[Gal'rgae Neverborne]

It wouldn't be a giant leap of faith to say that Space Marines and their various flavours are the most protected codex going.

It just seems mad that they've been so poorly written for so long.

I can see, for instance, how improving the 2+/5++ basic would affect other units so it's difficult to make a change to only benefits terminators.

Dropping the points to 25 all-in or even lower would probably do it. But puts them close to "Send in another wave" bracket of 40k units.

[Wyddr]

I think Terminators need +1 T, +1 Wound, and the cost for their special weapons should be reduced. The Cyclone Missile Launcher is *nowhere near* worth the cost.

Also getting back the ability to shoot accurately while moving would be huge.