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Author Topic: Squats RT-list for 6th Ed  (Read 44612 times)

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Offline Mabrothrax

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2010, 11:53:52 AM »
I'm planing to play a game with the codex in the near future and have been looking closely at the Exo-armour Trikes. (I have 4 so far... yum!)

Being essentially a Hearthguard unit upgraded to wear Exo-armour and then further upgrade to ride bikes/trikes I had to look around to find all the info. I like simplicity and things in one place, would it not be suitable to have a separate unit entry for Exo-armoured squats (with that unit having the trike upgrade as an option)?

At present, for 51 points per model you get a S5, T4(5), SV 1+/5++ with a power weapon that can potentially cause a S7 hit at I7...

That seems a little under costed to me.

Furthermore, at present the Heavy Charge rule doesn't state that it can be only used on the turn when you charge.

To be honest I don't like the Initiative boost as it is, I really can't see a dumpy squat, in overly heavy armour, on a heavy trike, being able to out manoeuvre a Dark Eldar, or any of the big badass Characters out there.

The Exo-trike model clearly doesn't have twin-bolters, I'd do away with them rules wise.

I think the crux of my problem is that simple adding the bike rules/bonuses to an Exo-armoured warrior doesn't do them justice, or seem correct, especially the 1+ save!

At present I think it would be worth considering having a separate piece of wargear -  the Exo Trike

Changes unit type to bike and follows the rules for bikes on page 53 of the rule book (note that the Sv increase isn't present), prohibits use of 'turbo-boost', grants the 'heavy charge' special rule, and just for clarification is not armed with twin-linked bolters.

My variation of Heavy Charge would be quite simply to double the effect of Furious Charge (i.e. S+2, I+2).

Of course I need to play test your rules as written, but I'm certain that at present, they're not quite there yet.

Thanks,

Mabrothrax.

*Edit*

Having looked again at the list, and the original RT compendium I have a few suggestions for Guild Bikers (and bikes in general)

1) Drop the additional armour save granted by bikes-  I believe this is a carry-over from 4th, it no longer exists in 5th.

2) Make the twin-linked bolters and optional upgrade rather than a fitting. This ties in with the model range, and would allow for a (cheaper) variation on the Guild Biker unit.

3) Perhaps add the 'hit & run' rule to the Guild Bikers unit - firstly to reflect the old hit and run tactics/skid turns rule, and secondly to add a little flavour to an otherwise dull unit

4) assuming a squad of Guild Bikes does not upgrade to have twin-linked bolters, has a reduced save (5+) and possibly even hit & run, another mode of attack would be suitable. Haywire grenades could be an option (as they were in RT).

That's all for now...





« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 02:44:42 PM by Mabrothrax »

Offline Rikerwota

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2010, 05:25:01 PM »
Hey, Rasmus

I'm a graphic designer and could take a look a doing a professional job on your Codex as a side project, as time allows. Send me a PM if you're interested.

Cheers.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2010, 02:16:47 AM »
Thank you for the offer, but if it gets trimmed up too much we endanger it falling into the "looking like GW-products" thus wildly violating their IP. Any list, no matter of what, has to be, at a glance, substantially different in layout from a GW production, or you risk litigation. Let's not risk it, shall we?

At present, for 51 points per model you get a S5, T4(5), SV 1+/5++ with a power weapon that can potentially cause a S7 hit at I7...

That is being addressed now

Quote
Furthermore, at present the Heavy Charge rule doesn't state that it can be only used on the turn when you charge.
Umm.. yes it does...

Quote
Heavy Charge - If mounted on a bike and wearing Exo-armour the unit may elect to forgo normal attacks and attack once per member with their power- weapon at +1 S and +4 I on the turn they charge. This is added to any possible Furious Charge.

Quote
To be honest I don't like the Initiative boost as it is, I really can't see a dumpy squat, in overly heavy armour, on a heavy trike, being able to out manoeuvre a Dark Eldar, or any of the big badass Characters out there.
Yeah, I redid the math based on your suggestion and made it +1S and +1I and made it not stack with the Exo-armour +1S. The match works out a lot better now. Thanks for the suggestion.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 02:05:03 PM by Rasmus »

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Offline Rikerwota

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2010, 03:57:50 PM »
Fair enough, always a tricky minefield to navigate lol :)

Offline Mabrothrax

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2010, 03:36:39 PM »

the Heavy Charge rule doesn't state that it can be only used on the turn when you charge.
Umm.. yes it does...

Hmm, must have been looking at an older version of the 'dex, or just losing it...

Quote
I redid the math based on your suggestion and made it +1S and +1I and made it not stack with the Exo-armour +1S. The match works out a lot better now. Thanks for the suggestion.

If the +1S doesn't stack with the Exo-armour bonus, then there's little point having it as the Heavy Charge rule only affects those in Exo-armour, it's like saying "you can have this bonus, or this idential bonus".

Another alternative approach would be to allow Exo-trikes to count as using Frag grenade when charging.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2010, 02:17:44 AM »
No, Heavy Charge will stack with the Exo-armour, but the Furious Charge won't. This simplifies math and makes heavy charge more appealing (because noone will sacrifice two attacks to get +1 or +2I). I will try to get the file completed this weekend, after I do all the other things I have stacked up that I have to do. :)

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Offline Mabrothrax

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2010, 12:42:00 PM »
I redid the math based on your suggestion and made it +1S and +1I and made it not stack with the Exo-armour +1S. The match works out a lot better now. Thanks for the suggestion.

If the +1S doesn't stack with the Exo-armour bonus, then there's little point having it as the Heavy Charge rule only affects those in Exo-armour, it's like saying "you can have this bonus, or this idential bonus".

Another alternative approach would be to allow Exo-trikes to count as using Frag grenade when charging.


No, Heavy Charge will stack with the Exo-armour, but the Furious Charge won't. This simplifies math and makes heavy charge more appealing (because noone will sacrifice two attacks to get +1 or +2I). I will try to get the file completed this weekend, after I do all the other things I have stacked up that I have to do. :)

I'm getting a little confused with this.

A Hearthguard in Exo-armour is S4 - if he doesn't shoot he may use the Furious Charge (thanks to the Berserker rule) to gain +1S/+1I

If riding a trike the same can use Heavy Charge (as stated above),  and lose all but one attack to gain the same bonus?

Am I missing something here?

Offline Amaya

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Re: Squat in 5th edition
« Reply #67 on: September 6, 2010, 04:18:02 PM »
The Squat Codex is interesting and all, but why are they stronger than Space Marines?  I think s3 t4 for basic units and s4 t4 for HQ would be more reasonable.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #68 on: September 7, 2010, 03:34:29 AM »
Considering the low numbers of models that have a statline over 4/4 is minimal though, and to be fair there are models for the SM range that top 4/4 as well.
Besides, the few units with stats topping 4/4 are far outweighed by the SM codex's vast collection of superior wargear.
In testing, statlines have not been an issue at any time.

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Offline Amaya

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #69 on: September 7, 2010, 11:49:55 AM »
But even the best Squats shouldn't be stronger than Space Marines.  That's just silly.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #70 on: September 8, 2010, 01:16:42 AM »
How is that silly? There are loads of things stronger than space marines. They are not "10s". They are, in fact, "4s", meaning there is a great deal in the scale to use above them. Squats are physically stronger than marines. At least some of them. This should be represented in gamestats. Not all squats are stronger than marines, but those that are, should be so even in the game, not just in the fluff.

Edit: Nevermind. It is just two things that has a higher S than 4. Two HQ individuals, one of which cannot be used in small games. Not units, not easily multiplied, just very costly characters. That makes your comment more nitpicking and anything else, so I will just leave it be.
« Last Edit: September 8, 2010, 09:52:36 AM by Rasmus »

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Offline Nomsheep, the Modhunter.

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2010, 07:41:25 PM »
have you been allowed to use this list in store or tournmounts rasmus, if so to what effect?
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #72 on: September 13, 2010, 03:38:19 AM »
I have and apart from the "oooh.... Squats... that's sooo cooool!"-comments the list itself goes over really well. Old-school Squatplayers come up and comment that this "feels" like the old list, and overall people are impressed by how well underbuilt and tested it is.

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Offline Iridescente

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #73 on: November 4, 2010, 05:46:41 AM »
First of all, Rasmus, I just want to say that your work on both the 4th and 5th Edition Squat Codex has been phenomenal.  I really like that you tried to stay true to the feel of Squats as they were originally presented as opposed to trying to make up a whole new army list based off of whatever whimseys a lot of the codices floating around are based off of.

Reading through these two threads and the current incarnation of the Codex has really wetted my appetite to try to put a Squat army together.  I wonder if my brother still has any of his old models lying around somewhere...

Of course, this prompted me to dig out my old Compendium and 2nd Edition rulebooks, and of course spawned a few (hopefully) constructive comments.

Squat Strength:  Squats were able to carry heavy weapons without the use of weapon platforms like the Eldar and without the use of strength-augmenting power armour.  In the 40K Compendium it states that Squats can carry up to 2" worth of heavy equipment with no penalty, although they usually built suspensors into their heavy weapons as a force of habit.  Seems quite reasonable that they are indeed as strong as, or stronger, than Space Marines.

Thunderer Squads:  A few notes on the Squat Support Squads.  First of all, looking up the army list entry in the 40K Compendium, it looks like you can upgrade any number of models (aside from the veteran) with a Heavy Bolter, but you can only upgrade a single model with his own choice of any other type of heavy weapon.  So you can have a mob of Heavy Bolters and a Lascannon, but not a mob of Lascannons.  According to the generic Codex Army Lists insert that was included in the 2nd Ed. boxed set, the Thunderer Squad (yes, it was named that; I'm guessing it was named this way in homage to the fantasy dwarves) was able to pick and choose any type of special or heavy weapon for any of the models.  So, if you're looking to keep the feel of the RT/Compendium Squat army list, the load out should be changed.  Otherwise, I think calling the Squat Support Squads "Thunderer Squads" gives it a little bit more flavor and doesn't detract at all from the "feel" of the RT list.  In fact, I feel it gives the list a little bit more personality and makes it feel more like a Squat list than a generic army list with simple names that describe units exactly as they are.  These are Squats and not Imperial Guard, after all.  (On a side note, the combat squads were named Warrior Squads in this list and the close assault squads were named Attack Squads as well.)  I also think it's funny that you could kit out a Thunderer squad with all Meltaguns and have a Squat equivalent of a Fire Dragon squad.  :)

While on this topic, everybody keeps complaining that this team is overpowered.  I'm not convinced, since you can easily field a squad of Eldar Dark Reapers, which all have the same heavy weapon load out, and have better BS.  Plus, if they've been playtested to fairness, why argue?  And speaking of comparisons between Thunderers and Reapers, do Thunderers ever even come into play as a scoring unit under 5th Ed. rules?  If you remember, Dark Reapers were considered "Troop" choices in RT and 2nd Ed.  They have since been moved into their proper place as a Support option.  I think if you were to carry this thinking forward from the old Squat army list, Thunderer squads feel like they, too, should be moved to Support.  But again, that's just my opinion, considering Guardian Jetbike squads are Troops and not Fast Attack...

Bike/Jetbike Units and Saving Throws:  To address issues with bikes granting bonus saving throw...  The current and latest Eldar Codex has Guardian Jetbikes listed at 3+ save.  Normal Guardians are 5+, so it seems like an arbitrary amount of additional saving throw is given to the unit, probably based on actual testing rather than a simple mathematical formula.  Then again, the Eldar Codex is from 4th Ed. so it could be keeping those saving throws from the old bike rules.

Ancestor/Side Car:  I know you've been having trouble coming up with rules for this upgrade.  My idea for this unit?  Simple is better.  Treat it as a single model, and that's that.  The moment you start separating stats from the biker to the Ancestor Lord, everything starts getting messy.  I think it should be treated for all intents and purposes as if it was the Ancestor riding the bike, a la Farseer on a Jetbike.  The biker is there for aesthetic purposes only, just like the heavy weapon platform on a Guardian Heavy Weapon team.  Disregard any points cost of the biker as a separate entity and just make the bike/side car a simple bike upgrade to the Living Ancestor.  As such he should be given the standard stats upgrades given to units mounted on bikes (i.e. +1T, not that he needs it!)

Organization:  In keeping with the same standard as the latest codices, it would be simpler to list the unit composition as (for example) Brotherhood Support Squad, Unit Composition: 5-10 models at 8 points each, one of which is a Veteran.  This would remove one of the lines from the Options section, which appears cluttered enough with all the different options.

Also, I've read various posts making mention of how convoluted some of the entries seem, when comparing Heathguard, ExoArmor, Bikes, and Trikes, and trying to make them all one entry.  With all the different stats being thrown around and added and special rules, I feel that it would be easier to read and understand for a player if some of these options were separated into separate units.

Additionally, in the 2nd Ed. generic Codex Army List, it allows you to add a single Hearthguard to any combat squad.  Not really necessary in the list, but might be a cool thing to include.

Hit and Run:  I think adding the Hit and Run rules to the Guild Bike and Trike teams is a perfect match for the old rules and fluff.

Vehicles:  I noticed that there were a lot of vehicles that were included in the list, whereas the original (both Compendium and 2nd Ed. Codex Army List supplement) only list Rhino and Landraider as vehicle options.  I do have to say that I love the Termite.  Was any official rule ever created for this vehicle for them or was this only ever hinted at in fluff?

Exo-Armor:  Addressing the issue with whether the Exo-Armor should have a stormbolter, it does mention in the fluff (2nd Ed Wargear book, I believe) that wealthy squats often employ built-in heavy weapons or combi weapons in their Exo-Armor.  Looking at the 2nd Edition Combi-Weapon Wargear Card, one of the options was two bolters combi'd together... which acted as a Storm Bolter.  So, yeah, as far as "wealthy squats" upgrading their exo-suits to have heavier weaponry?  The Hearthguard are just that... the wealthy squats, with all the weapons options they allow.

Fluff:  Someone in this thread mentioned Squats being completely annihilated by the Tyrannids.  I wanted to address that here by saying that it would be damned near impossible to wipe out an entire species from a whole galaxy.  According to some fluff I've read in the 2nd Ed. Codex Imperialis, there were some Squat leagues close to Earth (Norgyr) close to the Eye of Terror (League of Emberg), and who knows where else.  I doubt the Tyrannids went so far out of their way to run down every last Squat.  We can all just envision the attack on their homeworlds as the Fall of the Squats, and now the Squats have become the second Dying Race in the 41st Millennium, along with the Eldar, and there are still plenty of Eldar out there.  :)  (Unless, of course, all the Squat females lived solely in the homeworlds...)

FAQ:  Shouldn't Exo-Armor Squats have powerfists and thunderhammers?  Twinlinked Bolters?  I think a FAQ at the end of the Codex would be an ideal edition for a lot of the most commonly made comments on this thread.
Just playing along,
Bourhgen

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #74 on: November 4, 2010, 06:34:49 AM »
Thanks for your insight.
I am not actively developing this right now, and none of those that were previously involved through 40kOnline are actively testing or writing for the list at the moment.
If I, or someone else, at some point pick up development again, I am sure your input will be very useful to the next version.
Sadly, that day is not today.

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Offline hooliovoncoolio

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2010, 08:39:50 PM »
Just a quick question here:

I may be misreading, but why no Servators?(spelling) There were servator models.
I'd be surprised if the above post wasn't squat related.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2010, 02:28:46 AM »
They are in there. You just have to find them.
And they are "servitors".
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 03:23:28 AM by Rasmus »

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2010, 11:28:21 AM »
The file has been slightly reformatted and more importantly, rehosted. The link in the initial post is now pointing to the right place.

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Offline LimeyDragon

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #78 on: May 2, 2011, 09:11:41 PM »
Ok, i have been playing with this codex for several months now. I have only afew comments..

Special Rule = Assault Vehicle: should be allowed to be taken on Termites.

Assault Squad: Drop lasgun and replace with laspistol and Close-combat weapon and/or make it an upgrade option.

Vehicles: Remove the LandRaider and instead allow access to all Rhino chassis variants (rhino, razorback, predator annihilator, predator destructor, vindicator, Baal predator, immolater, exorcist, whirlwind, and so on). the main reason for this i do not see them getting them. A rhino is easy to come buy and even easier to maintain, the imperium probably has a surplus of them. So offering the squats access to any Rhino variant only makes senses. But to get access to them they must have an tech marine in the army.

What I listed above are just suggestions. I am currently playtesting the changes above. So far it seems balanced.But Will know more in afew weeks. Beyond all of this i love the rules, i compared them to the old 2nd update book i had lying around. So far this is the best version I have seen and it still keeps in line with the original feel.



Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #79 on: May 3, 2011, 02:56:00 AM »
Ok, i have been playing with this codex for several months now. I have only afew comments..

Special Rule = Assault Vehicle: should be allowed to be taken on Termites.
Playtesting showed that assaulting after deepstrike made the cost of the Termite and/or squad inside jump in points by about 100%. It was simply not worth it.


Quote
Assault Squad: Drop lasgun and replace with laspistol and Close-combat weapon and/or make it an upgrade option.
It was in the original list, which is why it was discarded initially. I might look that one over later on.

Quote
Vehicles: Remove the LandRaider and instead allow access to all Rhino chassis variants (rhino, razorback, predator annihilator, predator destructor, vindicator, Baal predator, immolater, exorcist, whirlwind, and so on). the main reason for this i do not see them getting them. A rhino is easy to come buy and even easier to maintain, the imperium probably has a surplus of them. So offering the squats access to any Rhino variant only makes senses. But to get access to them they must have an tech marine in the army.
The Imperium does not give the Squats anything, they build the things themselves. They have access to a few STCs and thus able to construct these things. The STC range is limited, however, meaning they can only build certain things, not all things. Their realm simply does not cover as much of a range as the Imperium does, meaning they have access to fewer STCs. This means they have fewer variants available.

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