Topic: Is There Such A Thing As 'Cheese'?

[Lomendil]

Mughi, what you are forgetting completely is that Sportsmanship applies to all aspects of the game. This includes making the army list, in fact making an army list is one of the MAIN parts of the game. I can't see why you can't get your head around this concept. Sportsmanship is not simply how 'nice' you are when playing; it would be a narrow and inaccurate definition to say that is was. It's also about making sure the game is even and fair, and that both players will enjoy the game. It extends to not exploiting game imbalances to get a 'free' advantage.

In your example, the guy is playing in tournaments where power lists are basically the order of the day. Many or most people there use them, so naturally they are not going to see such things as unsporting. In fact, in the tournament they aren't really unsporting because all the lists are power lists, so they are all basically equal. This goes back to what I've said before - power lists vs power lists, totally fine; power lists vs balanced lists in friendly games is not sporting.

ok dude, sportsman ship is playing a fair fun game. It's no fun if your playing an army that is litarly imppossible to beat. A 500 point army with 3 wraithlords is just not fun to play with. Even an 1'000 point army with that triple threat is infair. If your playing something like that, its just no fun for the other player. It's the same as if i was insulting u and calling u a loser whenever u made a move. That'de be no fun. If at the end of the game I called u an F___ing noob, no fun. Sure, you could start insulting me too but there'd be no fun to the game. This is a just as bad as playing Triple Wraithlord. If you develloped a tatic thats very good, thats ok. An uber combo, ok. This simply chanllenges ur opponent to over come this, fund a loop whole. If your oppenent can't find out wat to do, he can simply, 1. ask a pro, 2. post on this very site .

Totally. Couldn't agree more. Something that is tough but clever is by definition not cheesy. If it's overwhelmingly tough but also very simple then it's cheesy.

The other thing, of course, is that a battle is fun when it is a test of two players wits while the battle is in progress. This is what makes it. Games are best when two sides are roughly equal in power.

[mughi3]

Farseer Ken_zul

Oh, and perhaps you are simply covering yourself for you yourself might use this tatic

i don't play eldar, i only play dark angels exclusively...altho ugh i am tempted to do an I.G. army becuse i love the new elysian drop troops forge workl is working on.

It's no fun if your playing an army that is litarly imppossible to beat. A 500 point army with 3 wraithlords is just not fun to play with. Even an 1'000 point army with that triple threat is infair.

well thats your opinion. if the persons attitude in game was fun i would play them no problem. in fact i have done the equivalent in an 1850 game. and eldar player whiped my deathwing list off the board in 3 turns but we both had a good laugh playing the game because he had a great attitude. hell i had about the same situtation with a tau play who used the same list for friendly games and tournaments.

Grey Area

Mughi, what you are forgetting completely is that Sportsmanship applies to all aspects of the game. This includes making the army list

i refer you to the announcment made by one of our local outrider judges in december at the only RT i have ever played in.
"sportsmanship is how much you enjoy playing your opponant NOT what is in his army list"

This goes back to what I've said before - power lists vs power lists, totally fine; power lists vs balanced lists in friendly games is not sporting.

if GW didn't want it to be legal they would not allow it. i refer simply to the preface from IA2 which says in paraphrase-

some people object beacause they feel thier opponant is getting an unfair advantage which is nonsense. in a points based war game total up your army list WITHIN CODEX RESTRICTIONS and show up for the game with the models you need even though you do not know what game scenerio or terrain you will be using. by using the points based system you are effectively limiting yourself to tournament style playing and treating the hobby as a SPORT and limiting the use you get out of your model collection.

[The Canadian Dude]

sigh, some people just don't give up. Thats why i was born  .

okok, i agree that a cheese list used once or twice in a fun game is ok. I too have faced a list impossible to beat and me and my oppenent (a good friend of mine), laugh our socks off while others watch. That was fun but if I faced it every day in tourneys I'd get pissed off. And one tends to get cooky at this point which adds to the annoyence. And so when this happens things get ugly.

Once a friend got some sort of sniper independent dudes to his Space Wolves army that owned. We were ok with it, the guy was pretty stupid at times so giving him an advantage was ok. These sniper dudes came from the back of the third edition rule book in the inquisitior section. But after a while he started braging. Calling us every day mocking us since he had won 99% of his games since. Every day we'd all receive an anoying call from this guy and he'd go on bragain. We normally just put down the phone and walk away while he talked. Well after awhile i got thinking, if this is in 3rd edition and 4th is out, it should illegial. Now then i called my good pals at GW and they said, ummm no, you can't use those things. There are new rules in codex deamon hunters that he could us if he feilded a host of deamon hunters as allies but they also had different rules.

Now by now he had bought like 4 of these guys and we told him that they were illegal. He almost cried, he called GW every day and asked if he could use them and they said no. How do I know, another freind was asked GW employee while he was buying tau stuff and the guy said that some one had been calling every day asking that. So if one is a bad sport, it could easily back fire on you.

So being a bad sport is bad, no matter what the way (ya I know that this is mostly about the guy braging but it just shows what happens when some1 is unsportsman like)

P.S. the guy lost the next 100000000000000000 games lol .

[Lomendil]

i refer you to the announcment made by one of our local outrider judges in december at the only RT i have ever played in.
"sportsmanship is how much you enjoy playing your opponant NOT what is in his army list"

So what? Since when were Outriders the divine arbiters of truth and justice? I refer you also to my previous point about the context in which the list was being used.

if GW didn't want it to be legal they would not allow it. i refer simply to the preface from IA2 which says in paraphrase-

some people object beacause they feel thier opponant is getting an unfair advantage which is nonsense. in a points based war game total up your army list WITHIN CODEX RESTRICTIONS and show up for the game with the models you need even though you do not know what game scenerio or terrain you will be using. by using the points based system you are effectively limiting yourself to tournament style playing and treating the hobby as a SPORT and limiting the use you get out of your model collection.

Again, so what? If all you can do is refer me to the mistaken words of other people then you're on flimsy ground indeed.

Second, I don't trust paraphrases. People frequently skew the words to their own bias. But that's neither here nor there, as I said, I couldn't care less who is disagreeing with me as it makes no difference - the argument is one of ideas, not affected by the status of those arguing.

I also dispute this bizarre claim that "you are effectively limiting yourself to tournament style playing" . This strikes me as being nonsense. I can guarantee you that if asked, many many players would tell you that they use the point system to ensure equal sides, but don't play in a 'tournament style'. I don't care who tries to pronounce that 'points = tourney style', because that's simply an untruth, and an obvious one at that. Given that so many players don't play in a 'tournament style' in their friendly games at the game club, the player who brings the cheesy army IS giving himself an advantage, and the cheap part is that that advantage is gained without any tactical skill or brainpower whatsoever. I'm sure some players think they are clever for making cheesy lits, but they flatter themselves. Even a moron can just copy one from the net if he can't make one himself. 

In any case, all the above 'paraphrase' seems to be doing is attempting to rationalize the imbalances in the game. It's implying "Yep, taken as a whole, the game has some unbalancing units. You'll just have to use them all the time and leave the others at home, if you want to win every game". That's possibly endorsing the most boring game style possible. It's like the unimaginative dolts who run around with twinked Burizons on Diablo II. Let's face it - the most powerful armies are all pretty much cookie-cutters. There won't be much difference between two cheesy Eldar armies, or two cheesy IW armies. Dull dull dull.

[mughi3]

So what? Since when were Outriders the divine arbiters of truth and justice?

since they are the ones running the tournament and also since if you look at the RT judging sheets put out by GW they have a section for rating a persons sportsmanship and a different section on weather or not you think they were trying play fluffy or trying to overpower thier list.

this is from GW themselves and shows a clear distinction between sportsmanship and whats in the list.

Second, I don't trust paraphrases. People frequently skew the words to their own bias. But that's neither here nor there, as I said, I couldn't care less who is disagreeing with me as it makes no difference - the argument is one of ideas, not affected by the status of those arguing.

i paraphrased it in order to avoid pissing of GW and possibly threating this site. i will gladly show the preface to anybody who wants to see it in person.
secondly it does make a difference when the person disagreeing with you is a GW employee specifically citing rules issues, telling you you are wrong especially since they make the rules.

the player who brings the cheesy army IS giving himself an advantage, and the cheap part is that that advantage is gained without any tactical skill or brainpower whatsoever.

well your entitled to your opinion. i will continue to play(and win against) such people.

the most powerful armies are all pretty much cookie-cutters. There won't be much difference between two cheesy Eldar armies, or two cheesy IW armies. Dull dull dull.

the same goes for all fluff armies. if everybody did it the same way and made fluffy lists then all the armies especially space marines (with a few exceptions) would all look very similar. part of the fun of the game is the fact you can make your lists any way you want as long as they meet points cost and codex restriction. i have yet to see 2 so called power lists that are exactly the same..hell i have not even seen 2 army lists that are the same power or other wise and i live in an area with a large pool of gamers.

[-Makenshi-]

the most powerful armies are all pretty much cookie-cutters. There won't be much difference between two cheesy Eldar armies, or two cheesy IW armies. Dull dull dull.

the same goes for all fluff armies. if everybody did it the same way and made fluffy lists then all the armies especially space marines (with a few exceptions) would all look very similar. part of the fun of the game is the fact you can make your lists any way you want as long as they meet points cost and codex restriction. i have yet to see 2 so called power lists that are exactly the same..hell i have not even seen 2 army lists that are the same power or other wise and i live in an area with a large pool of gamers.

not really, there is no one fluffy army, a luffy DE army could ahve lots of raiders, lots of wyches or whatever

to theme an army around fluff would be very different, e.g. my SMurfs have a very termie and dread heavy theme, i get flak from some but my army is definatley not powergaming, despite the low amount of troops (3 Troops choices, 2 tac squads and a scout squad, not minimum sizes) and large amount  of termies and dreads it has proved to make my army challenging in that i have to play a bit liek Eldar, deliverign a hammerblow or loose my high cost units

you dont see this kind of theme everywhere, however almost all powergaming armies look near identicle

[Lomendil]

So what? Since when were Outriders the divine arbiters of truth and justice?

since they are the ones running the tournament and also since if you look at the RT judging sheets put out by GW they have a section for rating a persons sportsmanship and a different section on weather or not you think they were trying play fluffy or trying to overpower thier list.

this is from GW themselves and shows a clear distinction between sportsmanship and whats in the list.

See my previous comments on the fact that it doesn't matter who is saying it. If GW said that it was good sportsmanship to insert the dice in one's rectum before rolling them, would you accept that? No, you would not.

Also, you are ignoring my point about the context in which armies are used. In a tournament full of powerlists, powerlists are not unsporting. This does not mean that this extends to friendly games as they are being played in a different context. Understand this.

i paraphrased it in order to avoid pissing of GW and possibly threating this site. i will gladly show the preface to anybody who wants to see it in person.

OK, cool.

secondly it does make a difference when the person disagreeing with you is a GW employee specifically citing rules issues, telling you you are wrong especially since they make the rules.

No, again, it doesn't. Rules are not sportsmanship. It doesn't matter what they say because they don't rule the entire 40k gaming world. They make the models and write the rules, they don't divinely pronounce what is fair and what is not - that judgement is up to players.

well your entitled to your opinion. i will continue to play(and win against) such people.

Oh, I play them. About 1 game in 6 is against a cheesy army. I'd say I win about two thirds of them. I just hold them in contempt.

the same goes for all fluff armies. if everybody did it the same way and made fluffy lists then all the armies especially space marines (with a few exceptions) would all look very similar.

Pure nonsense, and especially so in the case of Marines who have been designed with flexibility in mind. I bet I can prove you wrong by showing you a load of fluffy lists for the same army that are all very different. Want me to?

part of the fun of the game is the fact you can make your lists any way you want as long as they meet points cost and codex restriction. i have yet to see 2 so called power lists that are exactly the same..hell i have not even seen 2 army lists that are the same power or other wise and i live in an area with a large pool of gamers.

Admittedly, they are not 'exactly' the same. But they do tend to heavily incorporate the same old boring things. In Eldar,  3 Wraithlords and max starcannons, for example. An Alaitoc army with 8 units of 3 Rangers and 3 units of Pathfinders, etc.

[SanctuaryT-88]

Maybe not exactly on the topic but I have to say when I go fight against what people call cheesy armies, I just tell myself:

''oh what the hell, that day my army was low on numbers and was caught in Eldar territory and they had access to 3 WL''.

I just try to do my BEST with what I have on the table, like in a real world situation I guess. The topic of cheesy is definitly irratating for some while others just carry on and play the game. Come on, in all the zillions of battles raging on, do you think all of them were equal??? outnumbered, ouverpowered.

 That what makes 40k player who have a low loose stat on their list to be somewhat good at what they do, and are supposed to be rare individuals. Cant win everytime. And if your Captain or fetish squad u have gets detroyed, just put into ur head that models removed from the table are sometimes just ouf of order, not all of them die. They will come later for a fight....so i guess doing this helps me to ignore cheese on all forms.

[spiderbite]

I'm not a believer in 'cheese' at all. Every army out there has weapons, troops, vehicles that are powerful and/or cheap and available, and possibly highly effective against certain troops. It's really about how you use your list and what amount of points you play with. Something else to consider is what your goals are for the scenario you're playing. The way I look at it, you've got to put the right tools in the toolbox to get the job done. Having said that, our regular group are all pretty friendly and easy-going and we rarely see anything like power gaming. But it does happen sometimes. Oh well, if it's in the rules and you're following your FOC, then it's your right to do it.