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Offline farseermacha07

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Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« on: June 14, 2010, 02:57:04 PM »
Original thread title: Do you miss the good old craftworld Eldar?


THREAD IS NOW DEDICATED TO

FUTILE WISHLISTING
The Navel-Gazing Hope That Everything in the
~~~5th Edition Eldar Codex~~~
Will Have Rending

Hey guys, i thought i would ask you all who hear misses the good old Craftworld Eldar.... back when you could have the good old aspects as troops, or jetbikes, or even wraithlords.... Talk about catering for all your needs for all craftworlds eyy :)

I would love to see a new release of that, and maybe throwing in some of the other/new aspects such as the ones who use harlequines (cant remember name) and they could possibly take over as having harlequins as troupes.. and could ressurect some of the old units from the harlequine codex too....

Thought id see what everyone else thought?


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Offline Fenris

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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2010, 03:10:08 PM »
I never liked the craftworld eldar, and if they are going to split them in some way I think it would be more fair to give the harlequins a codex of their own.

Otherwise (or in addition) they could go for Shrine eldar where every shrine would get a codex or sub-codex on their own, but I don't think the eldar as a race has enough manpower to justify that.
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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2010, 03:18:47 PM »
Hey guys, i thought i would ask you all who hear misses the good old Craftworld Eldar.... back when you could have the good old aspects as troops, or jetbikes, or even wraithlords.... Talk about catering for all your needs for all craftworlds eyy :)

I do not miss it.

It was poorly balanced, and consequently open to abuse from the gaming perspective, while from the background perspective it was not representative of Eldar craftworlds, which actually have more in common with each other than that codex suggested, thus giving new players at that time a false representation of Eldar background.

To go back to this style of codex would, therefore, be a retrograde step in my opinion, so I don't agree with you I'm afraid.
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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2010, 03:43:52 PM »
Don't miss it at all :). While the current ruleset could definitely stand to be pushed a bit further when its time comes, the craftworld Eldar book just didn't cut it for me.

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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2010, 04:31:27 PM »
I miss the old craftworld codex.   :'( 

I speak to Eldar players now and they just field vanilla style armies, no thought to army composition or theme at all.  Eldrad, DAVU, Fire Dragons in a Waveserpent, Fire Prism ad nauseum.

Sure, the craftworld codex lent itself to abuse.  But instead of fixing it, GW decided to drop craftworlds entirely, relegating "fluffy" lists to Apocalypse.

Space Marines get love with lots of variant force orgs.  Heck, even in my WHFB Bret and Skaven armies, I can play around with force orgs and make themed lists that are competitive.  But Eldar is just bland vanilla to me now.

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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2010, 05:13:06 PM »
the idea behind dire avengers getting a boost was to make them a viable troops choice for a biel tan army. same with the points drop and FOC for jetbikes.

in fact, the only thing you can't have with the current codex is black guardians, which is a good thing imo as having bs4 heavy 3 starcannons and guardian squads with minimum numbers at 5 caused some pretty horrific lists. as did the disgraceful ranger disruption table for the alaitoc list.

as to theme armies, they are still possible now, even viable - see the saim hann and iyanden armies floating around the boards. they are just more difficult to pull big wins out with in tournaments.

as to "no thought to army composition or theme". i think you really mean just theme here, as most of the eldrad, DAVU, fire dragons etc. tend to be in lists that work well on the tabletop, so there is thought in the composition.

i wish they could implement craftworlds properly. but it is difficult to do without unbalancing the army.
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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2010, 05:14:42 PM »
Sure, the craftworld codex lent itself to abuse.  But instead of fixing it, GW decided to drop craftworlds entirely, relegating "fluffy" lists to Apocalypse.

Craftworlds have not been dropped.

They were solely background entries in White Dwarf 127, and the second edition Eldar codex, the original third edition Eldar codex, and the current Eldar codex, so it is codex Craftworld Eldar which stands out as being an anomaly for forcing people to field the big five craftworlds within too narrow a force organisation chart.

I would like more players to build armies which take account of background, but presenting them with straight jacket options which also ran contrary to Eldar background in earlier and later books was not the way to go about doing it, so I think GW did the only that they could do to fix the system at that time, and that was to scrap it completely.
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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2010, 05:22:03 PM »
Eldrad,

Never used him, never will...

I run a biel-tan themed army and mix up my lists depending on who I'm facing. I try to keep as many aspects in it as possible to keep it  fluffy.
I don't really use my DA to grab objectives, mainly just to thin out the hordes or sit on a forward objective. They can be a bastard for my enemy to shift sometimes.


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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2010, 07:07:57 PM »
Well, I don't miss Craftworld: Eldar, although I miss some of the few things we had in the Old Codex: Eldar. Along with the older Codex: Eldar, since now we have to face Sanguinary Priest who has W2 along with the Wolf Veteran which either one can be assigned with units, while our we as Eldar who is the supposed undisputed master psykers (Right....) can't allocate our Warlocks the way we want like the olden days. I say this since some of the things happening with the recent new codexes are similar from the old codexes of 1st and even 2nd editions.

As a fluff army myself, I am affected being unable to field 5 Wraithguards as a troop choice. It doesn't matter though, since I had been fielding 11 man squads along w/ a spiritseer.
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Offline Greg23

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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2010, 10:06:09 PM »
Craftworlds have not been dropped.

They were solely background entries in White Dwarf 127, and the second edition Eldar codex, the original third edition Eldar codex, and the current Eldar codex, so it is codex Craftworld Eldar which stands out as being an anomaly for forcing people to field the big five craftworlds within too narrow a force organisation chart.

I would like more players to build armies which take account of background, but presenting them with straight jacket options which also ran contrary to Eldar background in earlier and later books was not the way to go about doing it, so I think GW did the only that they could do to fix the system at that time, and that was to scrap it completely.

I'm sorry to disagree with you Irisado, but I find the 4th ed Codex coupled with 5th ed missions to be the biggest straight jacket for Eldar.

1st Ed Eldar, WD 127, didn't limit me to which Aspects Warriors and guardians I could or could not choose.  The force org on page 31 is very open and lenient.  The only restriction was on jetbikes, but even GW back then knew and admitted to future jetbike armies.  Page 39.

2nd Ed Eldar was percentage based force orgs.  And all the Aspect Warriors were still basic squads , "troops".  Jetbikes, Scouts, Wraithguard, and other units joined in the fray as well, adding variety.

3rd Ed 40k brought in the fixed force org tree we have to this day.  And only rangers, guardians, and Dire Avengers now counted as troops.  This was somewhat ok, because the 3rd and 4th ed 40k ruleset was still "kill em all and let's count the victory points" and there were no broad restrictions as to whom could count as a scoring unit.

The 3rd ed Craftworld Codex came out to give more variety to what force org builds can be used.  Not as broad as 1st or 2nd ed nor perfectly balanced, but hey, something better than nothing.  And the EOT USF force org was interesting, if not abused.

The combo of the 4th ed Codex and 5th ed rules and missions really killed force orgs, composition, and flexibility.  The Craftworld force orgs were effectively gone.  Randomly 2/3 of all missions count on Troop choices to get the job done by taking objectives.  So even if I wanted to spam Aspect Warriors with the current force org, I'd be shooting myself in the foot if my one scoring aspect warrior unit option, Dire Avengers, aren't in the right place (blasted random objective point) at the right time (blasted random game length)

4th ed Guardians have the least amount of unit options out of all the editions.  Counting on them to carry the game, take objectives, and not sacrifice kill points, is a long stretch.  Granted, guardians never were rock and roll butt kickers, but now they really hurt.

So what do I see?  Fast mechanized armies that can meet the demands of random mission objectives and scenarios and random deployment zones with a clear mind on keeping troops alive and inflicting pinpoint damage on single enemy units, not all-in total annihilation or sacrifice units to deny annihilation.  No sacrifice guardians in 5th ed.  No extraneous units that can neither take an objective or annihilate a single opposing unit to the man or provide the speed and resilience to contest a single objective at close quarters.

Hence Eldrad, DAVU Waveserpents and Falcons, Mechanized Fire Dragons, and Fire Prism. 

Eldrad to handle random deployment zones and provide buffs.
DAVU Waveserpent and Falcons to take objectives at maximum point efficiency and speed.
Mechanized Fire Dragons and Fire Prisms to maximize pinpoint damage on single units, taking a kill point or eliminating an opposing unit whenever the opportunity arises.

Boring, boring, boring.


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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2010, 05:52:01 AM »
The only thing I miss from from the old dex is the Star Cannon being a heavy 3. New SM dex comes out with assult cannon hvy 4 rending so their answer was to nerf ours. Hmmm me thinks not.

But by all purposes, we can still make each of the craft worlds, we just have to take some units we wouldn't normally take. Makes a more ballanced list. Our book isn't really broken, anymore, but the others coming out kinda are in some ways.

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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2010, 07:43:57 AM »
The 3rd ed Craftworld Codex came out to give more variety to what force org builds can be used.

Yet, by the same token it restricted your choices for any given craftworld, forcing you down a particular route in terms of your unit choices, making the craftworlds unrealistically restrictive if you take into account the fact that the background has shown them all to have more common features than distinguishing features.

Quote
The combo of the 4th ed Codex and 5th ed rules and missions really killed force orgs, composition, and flexibility.

There simply was no flexibility in the Craftworld Eldar codex, and this was one of the problems with it.  Yes, you had different FOCs, but the five main craftworlds were composed of one FOC, and you were forced to take certain units in every game as a result, regardless of the points value or narrative aspect of the game.  I'm afraid that I cannot share your idea of this being flexible on that basis.

Quote
The Craftworld force orgs were effectively gone.

You can still make craftworld forces very easily using the current FOC, so I really cannot see the problem here.  The only units which are unavailable are the Ulthwé Black Guardian squad and the true Seer Council, but Dire Avengers can count as the former, and the latter was horribly overpowered, so is no loss to the game in my opinion.

Quote
Randomly 2/3 of all missions count on Troop choices to get the job done by taking objectives.

This is an issue with the rulebook though, as you indicated earlier, so trying to use this as an excuse to bring back a poor codex is, in my view, to try to conflate two completely separate issues.

Quote
Hence Eldrad, DAVU Waveserpents and Falcons, Mechanized Fire Dragons, and Fire Prism.

You write as though everybody plays in the same way, yet if you look around this forum, it's clear that there are a number of different styles of play out there, and that these sorts of armies tend to be representative of the US tournament scene more than they do anything else.  I agree that such an army is not very interesting, but the picture you paint is an overly pessimistic one which I do not feel accurately represents the reality of the situation outside of tournament play.
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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2010, 09:06:45 AM »
Just want to see some plastic Wraithlords... guard

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« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 09:10:47 PM by Mr.Peanut »
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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2010, 01:06:35 PM »

Quote
Randomly 2/3 of all missions count on Troop choices to get the job done by taking objectives.

This is an issue with the rulebook though, as you indicated earlier, so trying to use this as an excuse to bring back a poor codex is, in my view, to try to conflate two completely separate issues.

  The 4th Ed Eldar Codex is a 4.5 Ed Eldar codex, stuck between 40k editions along with the Chaos Space Marine Codex.  "Fluff" armies were emasculated and shot to ribbons in both Codices.

  Why is everyone harping on the old Eldar Craftworld Codex and "alternate" force orgs for Eldar?  But nobody is busting on Space Marines, IG, or Orks with their multiple legal force org builds?

  I played against the new Blood Angels Codex in a pick up game with a Tau army.  Did I face a "balanced force org list" of footslogging Space Marine with some Rhinos, a Devestator Squad, maybe an elite jump pack unit or two?  No, I faced Dante + Mephiston and their artificer armor flying circus of doom.  And those flying "elite" units counted as scoring troops.  What the hell?

  I can build a tourny legal Clan Pestilens army with Lord Skrolk in my Skaven list.  No "clan rats counts as plague monk" garbage.  Plague monks are plague monks and count as scoring core.  I can also build a tourny legal Clan Mors, Clan Skryer, and Clan Moulder lists, all with fluffy core units that reflect the clan I wish to play and not suck.  I just played a Clan Skryer list with Itik Claw, engineers, Lighting Cannon, Doom Wheel, Globadiers, Jezzails, and core clan rat weapon teams against Daemons and tied.  And Daemons are the hardest army right now in Fantasy.

  And what I did with Skaven I can do similar with my Brets and not suck.  RAF, shooty/magic peasant lists, anti-psychology KE-QK-GK lists, Army of the King, MSU KotR lists, etc.

  Why is it too much to ask the same from Eldar, especially when other 40k codices and races get the love?

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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2010, 01:28:11 PM »
This is a thread concerning Eldar and what people would like to see for Eldar in a future codex rapture revision. A matter previously locked down due to the futility but now allowed to fully gestate into the unholy horror we're sure it'll be.  It doesn't concern the other armies in 40K nor other GW gaming systems. It's not a thread just to sit back and complain about other armies in 40K and/or other GW gaming systems. It's about Eldar. For once the prophecies were correct and this thread is all about you. Keep it that way else off topic posts will be aborted in the back room using the finest of pharmaceuticals. 
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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2010, 01:55:46 PM »
Just want to see some plastic Wraithlords...

Then go buy some, they have been plastic for quite some time now... or did you mean to say Wraithguard ?

Anyway, I still think the Eldar Codex is decent... and I hammered out a list of BA not to recently too... they die just like any other Marines, and the FNP just became overcosted as I hammered them with AP=2-3, Double Str > T weapons and Power weapons to negate that option.... Just read a response from another Eldar player (different thread) that said the same thing about the BA... his Batrep should be up soon, so I look forward to how he too used superior force amplification to pound SM's to death or into the Warp....

Anyway, back on topic.....

Eldar Wish lists... more plastics pleae, easier to convert and lighter in the box... wooot.... I like a lot of the old sculpts though, so keep those, just add more for variety.

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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2010, 05:02:21 PM »
Really? I get to wishlist?

oooh where to start.. actually I think the list is pretty solid already, never really wanted a uber list anyway.

What would be nice though is some way of combating things like psychic hoods just so that the 'most powerful psychers in the galaxy' were not castraited by a librarian... maybe even something sort of 'irresistable force' like cast.

Also the fluff of Wraithbone would support a Wraithlord-Farseer HQ/Elite/HS, even if as far as I know the actual eldar fluff of such a unit existing does not (other than maybe the old irno knights or whatever they were called that were used to battle the C'tan armies)

Being able to order specific sprews, ie the new prism turret separate would be nice too.. not to mention extremely unrealistic...

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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2010, 09:05:23 PM »
Wishlist:

1. Plastic wraithguard (as stated).
2. Return of special characters... you know which ones.
3. Return of heavy 3 Starcannons.
4. Return of CW specific lists.
5. Return of Eldar Psychic superiority.

That's not too much to ask for?

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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2010, 09:07:16 PM »
Hmm.. Wishlisting...

Falcons in fast attack
vehichle turrets that can shoot (one weapon) no matter the distance moved
An assault transport (the tank with a webway portal in it as a monolith equivalent)
Plastic Wraithguard
Guardians being booted into another slot, probably heavy support for defenders  with much more wargear available in the form of weapon platforms (or just arm them with shuriken cannons, that'd be good - if a bit silly) probably replace them with warp spiders or striking scorpions.
Bonesingers in a similar role to techmarines
More subtle, manipulative psychic powers

Generally I'd like to see more of the units represent the dying race fluff, with even the most basic troops being given wargear that makes space marines cry because each and every member of the race is a precious commodity.
For example, every eldar having a 6++ save (you could probably put that into the codex now and it'd solve most of the overpricing problems)

But it'll never happen.

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Re: Rand Paul wishlisting thread for Codex Eldar
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2010, 10:21:05 PM »
Falcons as dedicated transports for aspect warriors and warlocks.
+1 specialization skill for aspect warriors (+1 BS for shooty warriors such as avengers and reapers, +1 WS for assaulty warriors such as banshees and scorpions).
All phoenix lords gain Battle Fate and +1 attack (I don't like people thousands of years old getting as many attacks as a wolf lord).
Sword of Asur forces ld tests on 3D6 for its fun ability (and give it some way to damage vehicles)
Guide works in CC
Haywires pen on a 5+ (really all they need)
Falcons can fire both guns on the turret as one main weapon for purposes of speed and how many weapons can fire
Emphasize the "master psychers" and "everyone of the race has psychic ability" (though probably limited to farseers/warlocks)
Banshees gain furious charge
Army wide fleet with an improvement to fleet for those who already have it (roll 2 dice choose highest or something of that nature).
Conceal confers stealth to the unit.
Scorpions claw improved (striking at initiative seems odd, but swinging at I1 is not how Eldar do things, especially considering Karandras' lack of power weapon).

That's about it.
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