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Author Topic: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances  (Read 10172 times)

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Offline Ghail

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #20 on: October 5, 2005, 08:19:30 PM »
I do think that you guys are overreacting a bit?.....
after all its like with the monolith situation.... ignore the monolith, KILL EVERY THING ELSE so they phase out, only they don't phase out

what we gota do is simple, change tactics a bit, insted of going "ohh a Land Raider Crusader, they will be crying by the end of the turn" go "HAHA they spent XXXXXXX(lol) Points on slow lumbering beast which we can go around in a blinking of an eye!!"

just ignore it, all they did was add to the funness, they WILL be crying when we finish the game, there whole army dead, cept for a LRC. which we are hiding from and going "HEHE your not going to get us!!!"
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Offline Lomendil

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #21 on: October 5, 2005, 08:35:26 PM »
In a WWP army Wyches with Haywires will deal with the LRCs well enough. Just add Haywire Grenades to your standard Wych squads, there's no real need to buy 60 footsloggers for the task. It's unlikely that the BT army is going to have more than a couple of LRCs, only an idiot would spend 1000+ points on 4 tanks in a 2000pt game. 



...

*sigh*

This is like that time when we dreamed up plans to defeat the monolith using fancy wargear and whatnot. Right, those of you who love the WWP, close your eyes for the next couple of lines or so.

The WWP is OVERRATED. An army based on a WWP, IMO, is a poor excuse for a DE army, as it strips away that DE feeling of speed and replaces it with some gimicky peice of crud. 20 WYCHS!? That's a waste for a single slot, let alone one so finiky. 300 points worth of T3 6+ foot sloggers still get mowed down like no tommorrow. Hell, the LR cost less than that!
The Talos isn't much of a solution either (but still better than that wych idea), because the Talos VS a tank isn't a great idea, unless that tank stood still and the talos charges and gets a 6 for attacks (Even then it's iffy. Face it, the Agonizer on a beastmaster is a better anti-tank weapon). And I don't know about you, but I try and steer my talos away from tanks, just becuase they last longer as a fire magnet that way.

Bet you must hate the current WWP fashion here. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Still, I do think it strange that you think the WWP doesn't fit the DE, given that the Webway is central to their strategies and even to their continued existence. You get plenty of speed out of WWP lists too, with long-range assaults carried out by the Raider-riding units emerging the Webway. Not sure what "gimicky peice of crud" (sic) is all about, you might as well claim the same about the Shadowfield's 2++ save or Mandrakes special rules. The WWP isn't overrated, - it just isn't to everyone's taste. Each to their own. WWP is still King though.



turns out that yes they can take anti dark lance armour.... but in reality they need it if the army is going to use the LRC as troop transports. How bad would it be if you had 3 LRC and they all popped first turn, then your 3 wounded units are entangled for the second turn..... it realy wouldn't be worth using the army

Very good point.

900 points of wychs is wrong. Very wrong. Hurricane Bolters will eat them alive, and make back there points within a turn. You're still spending almost as much as they are to counter the LRs, and the LRs have opening shots on the ragtag other thousand points you start the game with (and it'll be more than 2 dead a turn, mark my words). Raiders will crash and burn before portal bearers get close to target, and if they foot slog? Pifft. Good luck.

I've faced armies packing considerably more firepower than 3 or 4 LRCs and still deployed both my portals without too much bother. Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children and Imperial Guard spring to mind immediately.

See, just stop a moment and think about it.

4 LRCs is 1000pts...

That leaves very little for the rest of the army. There is going to be little or no extra support firepower in such a list as the remaining 1000pts is going to be spent mostly on assaulty Marines units of various kinds. You might get a Predator or Landspeeders or some such, but nothing hugely threatening. That really isn't all that deadly compared to some lists.

So it's pretty simple - just take plenty of big Warrior squads screening a pair of WWP-carrying Haemonculi. The Crusaders aren't going to kill  60 - 80 Warriors in two turns.

as for the footslogging wyches, why bother using raiders when you face an enamy that comes to you. We have laid down the bait... the over zelous Monkei are comming to us.

You may still need the extra distance, and I think they'll be useful for the more likely (IMHO) BT lists that won't be packing 4 LRCs but have footslogging/jump-pack units instead.

Offline Aesir Yggdrasil

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #22 on: October 5, 2005, 08:45:23 PM »
I'm sorry, a lith I can ignore, a LR? I think not. A lith has an effective range of 30", a LR has one larger. As for tactics, in a worse case senario, the LR will be used to split your forces, fracturing the DE punch. This allows for the BT to take control of the game, and the DE advantage is miffed.

dude your missing the point of LRC's they only have an effective range of 24". You can almost hug the back of the deployment zone if someone uses 4LRC's because tha range is so poor.

as for the footslogging wyches, why bother using raiders when you face an enamy that comes to you. We have laid down the bait... the over zelous Monkei are comming to us.

and besides what i was trying to get at was " it's not as cheesey as it seems" We have the WWP. It's part of DE culture, so why not use it to full advantage.

IMHO if you put a whole army on the table without a wwp... then your going to dies very quickly v/s the BT... simply for the fact the LRC are untouchable, unless we use mahusive HWG or DL shots.... and my money would be on the HWGs as you get the anti infantry wyches to boot as well :)

Massive DL shots don't help matters much unless you're really lucky. Massive HWG, as I've pointed out before, COST TO DAMN MUCH. Honestly, you're wasting your anti-assualt unit by paying those extra points for a bottom of the heap tank hunter sqaud. It's like using a dreadnougt to infiltrate a sercet base and steal the plans. It doesn't end well. As for sitting in the back... Well, if you KNEW that they're playing BT, then odds are that they'll know you're playing DE, and will pack a ML or two for the ride. You can't hide from those & drop pods in the back of your deploment zone, infact you make matters worse, as what happens when your portal bearers get killed off? Those portals get shut down but good.
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Offline nesbitt_bub1

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #23 on: October 5, 2005, 08:46:39 PM »
heheheh thanks for the reality check :)

i've faced 2 LRC's but that was aginst DA and i have LST's to shoot then so your probably right about the LRC. armies fielding 2 or more will be few and far between. It's still a great shame the SM can't make a nice assault force that can cover a bit of distance in numbers, but at least BT should do a lot more than stand and shoot. Which will realy improve gameplay.

Can't wait to play them now....


And Lrc's have a far smaller range than a normal LR. the storm bolters are great anti infantry wepons... But they Realy do only have a 24" range.... LRC's aren't that nasty. You can afford to ignore an LRC.
« Last Edit: October 5, 2005, 08:52:40 PM by nesbitt_bub1 »

Offline Lomendil

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #24 on: October 5, 2005, 09:02:44 PM »
Well, if you KNEW that they're playing BT, then odds are that they'll know you're playing DE, and will pack a ML or two for the ride. You can't hide from those & drop pods in the back of your deploment zone, infact you make matters worse, as what happens when your portal bearers get killed off? Those portals get shut down but good.

Drop Pods, and indeed all Deep Strikers, can occasionally cause problems but aren't really all that much to worry about. They almost always arrive too late to prevent portals being opened, in fact they can't achieve anything towards that if the Dark Eldar get the first turn. Even if lots of Deep Strikers arrive as early as they can then they can still be stopped by the simple expedient of having your Haemonculus/i nestled in between Warrior squads rather than being directly behind all of them. The only Deep Strikers that really worry me are Librarians with FotD, and BT can't take these.

Offline comradeDa

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #25 on: October 5, 2005, 10:14:32 PM »
Well, I think it is damned unfair. Reasons:
1. You can't concetrate on everything else, because they are in the LRCs.
2. You can assault out of Land Raiders
3. Lots of Twin-Linked Bolters = Lots of Dead Warriors/Wyches/Talos/Raiders/everythinginadarkeldararmybarRavagers
4. Can move 12", if there are three, they can cover the entire board and not let anyone past
5. No phase out.
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Offline Stormtrooper of the Dominion

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #26 on: October 5, 2005, 11:46:59 PM »
Quote
Well, I think it is damned unfair. Reasons:
1. You can't concetrate on everything else, because they are in the LRCs.
2. You can assault out of Land Raiders
3. Lots of Twin-Linked Bolters = Lots of Dead Warriors/Wyches/Talos/Raiders/everythinginadarkeldararmybarRavagers
4. Can move 12", if there are three, they can cover the entire board and not let anyone past
5. No phase out.

so when a dark eldar has his portal guy move 6 inches, open a portal, have transport come through and move 12", then get his guys to charge 6" thats completely fair but when an assault army actually has a transport they can I dunno, ASSAULT out of thats unfair?  I am so very sorry sir but I must call bullamphetamine parrot on that.

And as for there being no phase out... THEIR NOT NECRONS lol  But in all seriousness theres a reason land raiders cost so many points, and even with 3 on the board a BALANCED dark eldar army should be able to take them down
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Offline Lomendil

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #27 on: October 5, 2005, 11:51:38 PM »
In general I agree, though the DE portal doesn't quite work that way - it can't move and deploy in the same turn.

I don't think the LRC is going to be all that problematic. While it is going to have plenty of advantages, the high point cost - almost 300pts each - offsets them and means that any army that takes more than two will have to make sacrifices when it comes to having actual troops to win the battle with. An army with 3 will be short on manpower, an army with 4 will be a joke.

Offline Aesir Yggdrasil

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #28 on: October 6, 2005, 12:29:02 AM »
While true, it is still unsettling to see ANOTHER army with a tank that we can't touch.

As for the WWP (Sure it was ours to start with, but it feels like an USF tricky gimiky thing. The shadow feild has a great DE feel to it, works well as long as it lasts...), it still seems as though you either dump it ASAP, loosing the whole reason you brought along that damned expensive peice of kit, or wander out a wee-little ways before dumping it, with little better effect. Me, I like to spend my points on something that can strike back, and as far as I can see, the raider rush works just as well as it ever did, though that still means you need to take care on how you use it. Either way, it feels like the marine player would be telling you how to play the game, which, with DE, is wrong.
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Offline Cryx@Work

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #29 on: October 6, 2005, 12:50:47 AM »
Aesir - great to see someone hasnt hopped on the wwp band wagon, still, I dont agree that it's not fluffy for DE - after all we live in the webway!
ANyway, no matter.

This LRC crusader purity seals thing, it's still an upgrade they have to pay the equivalent of a marine's cost to get. Im not at all convinced it will be at all common, basically its an upgrade they can take for 2 armies which arent very common.I dont expect it t tournies much,anmd if they useit that's so many fewer points for other things. And if your mate insists on using it exclusively agianst you for friendlies you will either stop playing him or both agree its a bit overpowered for regular games...

Considering they already have access to the broken FotA power, who cares about the LRC? As someone said,it's only got a 24"range,if can keep>30"away it can do nothing to you!

Now if they made BT Rhinos AV14 and gave them this ability then I could understand - considering its LRCs we're talkking about, I dont see it as such a huge issue... Oh, and they only move 6" to shoot, Machine SPirit and Hurricane Bolter  rules have changed...

Offline Zucrous Shadowhelm

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #30 on: October 6, 2005, 09:33:00 PM »
oh comon u guys, its not that big a deal, how many Dark lances to u feild in an average army? Not to mention, I would find it so fun to charge a wych squad up to his precious landraider let loose the haywire hell, while blocking the exit points, if u get a penetrating hit, thats most likely a very expensive squad immediatly dead because they cannot exit the penetrated vehicle. Just be more creative u guys. Also the Talos can do a number on it still.
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Offline Black Sword

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #31 on: October 7, 2005, 01:28:36 AM »
Oh, and they only move 6" to shoot, Machine SPirit and Hurricane Bolter  rules have changed...
Actually, unless the Maries LRC is different from the Daemonhunters LRC (which I doubt), it can actually move up to 12" and fire everything.
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Offline cubbie

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #32 on: October 7, 2005, 08:21:43 AM »
Then again, to counter all this hysteria you have to ask how often there gonna take it? I mean Ive played against lots of Armoured companies, and they have apeice of vehicle warear that counters bright/dark lances, and Ive never seen anybody take it.....


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Offline -bill-

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #33 on: October 7, 2005, 09:16:36 AM »
One thing they have done tho is to stop the LRC moving 12" and firing the hurricane bolters. That rule was in the Armagedon codex but is not in the new one.

Looks like we'll have to get our little tankhunter squad of wytches with haywire grenades again.

At least they didn't get a blessed portal closer



Offline Aesir Yggdrasil

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #34 on: October 7, 2005, 11:11:12 AM »
Then again, to counter all this hysteria you have to ask how often there gonna take it? I mean Ive played against lots of Armoured companies, and they have apeice of vehicle warear that counters bright/dark lances, and Ive never seen anybody take it.....

DONT PANIC

The thing about AC's is that those tanks have rear armour & side armour largely different than 14, which makes them not nearly as indestructable. I don't have a problem with the monolith because it's SLOW & you can deal with it through some means other than an extensive plan to blow up the world. The LRC, should your opponent know you're coming with DE, is just sick. It takes control away from the DE player, forcing you to play by their methods and to their tune, instead of you directing what should and shouldn't happen. This, I think, plunks a large hole into the centre of DE tactics for no justified reason. Also, kinda miffed that DE are basicaly the only army that can't touch the damned thing.
« Last Edit: October 7, 2005, 11:12:15 AM by Aesir Yggdrasil »
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Offline franky

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #35 on: October 7, 2005, 11:21:17 AM »
I haven't read some of the last entries, so if this is repetitive then sorry.  anyways...

When i first found out about this i was like ... errgh I don't even have a chance against them now.  But then i started to think about it, this only applies to LRCs right?  Not the other tanks?  because if its just the land raider then it shouldn't really be a problem to get in their with some haywire grenades and take care of them... because they are a huge points cost.  Any BT player, if they were smart, wouldn't waste so many points on transports, and if they arn't smart then they'll bring a bunch thinking they're the best things in the world and then we can laugh at them as we take them out anyways.

Plus, a lot is being taken away from BTs... such as devestator squads, one of their tanks... i forget which one... the one that shoots somehwat randomly.  they've basically been forced into becomming a mostly cc army, so we'll easily be able to keep out of their range and shoot them, then send in things like wyches to clean up the rest.

oh and they don't get librarians either.. and something else.
EDIT::::
The tank that they lose is the whirlwind, and they also don't get drop pods anymore, which can definately make a difference in gameplay.
« Last Edit: October 7, 2005, 11:59:58 AM by franky »

Offline EightyEight

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #36 on: October 7, 2005, 11:30:33 AM »
Quote
Well, I think it is damned unfair. Reasons:
1. You can't concetrate on everything else, because they are in the LRCs.
2. You can assault out of Land Raiders
3. Lots of Twin-Linked Bolters = Lots of Dead Warriors/Wyches/Talos/Raiders/everythinginadarkeldararmybarRavagers
4. Can move 12", if there are three, they can cover the entire board and not let anyone past
5. No phase out.
1. Not everything will have a transport.
2. We are an assault army... Granted, our basic units are not all that excellent, but if they hold out for even a turn, you can bring up Wyches or a Lord, and watch the fun.
3. Just hide from them. Most boards have a reasonable amount of terrain.
4. What's the problem with a 12" move? Most, if not all, tanks move that far
5. Erm... no, and neither has any other army except Necrons...

so when a dark eldar has his portal guy move 6 inches, open a portal, have transport come through and move 12", then get his guys to charge 6" thats completely fair but when an assault army actually has a transport they can I dunno, ASSAULT out of thats unfair?  I am so very sorry sir but I must call bullcheese on that.
You can't move from a portal on the turn it was opened- it opens in the shooting phase.

And as for there being no phase out... THEIR NOT NECRONS lol  But in all seriousness theres a reason land raiders cost so many points, and even with 3 on the board a BALANCED dark eldar army should be able to take them down
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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #37 on: October 9, 2005, 03:08:08 PM »
ehh......no team is perfect, just because a av14 tank can spend an extra 20pts. to stop two weapons in the game dosent make it all that great, so a 270pt tank is good against the main de tank buster, and against one of the many eldar tank busters, but it will not do so hot against railguns, melta weapons and the like, and for almost 300 pts, thats alot of eggs in one basket. the upgrade is to specialized to be good.

Offline Dranshmont

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #38 on: October 9, 2005, 04:58:03 PM »
De really don't stand a chance against the tanks...but the eldar do...Fire prism, D-cannon and fire dragons within 6".

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Offline Aesir Yggdrasil

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Re: New Templars Crusader and Dark Lances
« Reply #39 on: October 9, 2005, 11:13:34 PM »
De really don't stand a chance against the tanks...but the eldar do...Fire prism, D-cannon and fire dragons within 6".

With regards to most tanks, we stand an average chance. Not great, but it's not terrible. The BT LRC is just some hairbrained idea, that begs for a revamped DE codex SOON.
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