Topic: calgar worth it or not?

[tomsev]

I've been asking myself this for a while now and cant really figure it out, is calgar worth taking in a space marine army???

[MagicJuggler]

In general...no. The big problem is he's *expensive*, and his main power only kicks in when you're losing. For the cost of him, you could field one of the core HQs (as an example, a Librarian with some general "utility" powers. Null Zone is nice. Gate of Infinity too, if you have Locator Beacons), as well almost affording another squad, group of vehicles, etc, outright! Rather than paying so much for the leadership bonus, just...buy more guns and ensure that you don't have to worry about it in the first place.

[Zilverscale]

MagicJuggler nailed this one spot on.

Only take him in a fluff army and don't expect to win to much with him in the army

[Koval, Master Verispex]

Considering he's such a Mary Sue in the fluff, it's hilarious to see that he's overpriced and underwhelming on the table. His shooting is gimmicky and you can get something very similar out of a Librarian, and Titanic Might is a joke unless he's trying to punch Wraithlords, Taloi, or other T7/T8 things. That leaves God of War, which really just turns him into a gigantic cheerleader (so those Gauntlets of Ultramar he's carrying might as well be pompoms), the ability to take more Honour Guard (...ditto), and Eternal Warrior (in before Mary Sue)

If you want a double-fist Chapter Master, even a double-thunder-hammer Chapter Master in Terminator armour, then it'll cost you much less. If you want a badass close combat character then get Lysander or Cassius. If you want a cheerleader, then get Kantor. If you're looking to blow a boatload of points for a very mediocre package, get Calgar.

[KJQ]

Ditto for all replies so far.  I just want to add that IMHO, our expensive SM HQ choices just aren't worth it in the current gamespace.  For me, having lots of cheap stuff vice fewer expensive units/models/options wins me more games. We can rarely out-assault anyone these days, so my lists are shooting heavy (except against IG and Tau).  The only 'expensive' HQ worth the points IMHO is Vulkan, and then only if your army is built around him (i.e. lots of meltas, flamers, thunderhammers).  Other than apocalypse games, my Calgar model never sees battle.  If I'm not playing Vulkan, I tend towards librarians or chaplains, or sometimes MotF when in the mood to dread spam.

[Koval, Master Verispex]

The only 'expensive' HQ worth the points IMHO is Vulkan, and then only if your army is built around him (i.e. lots of meltas, flamers, thunderhammers).

Just out of interest, how would you classify Kantor and Lysander, if Vulkan's "the only 'expensive' HQ worth the points"?

[MagicJuggler]

I dislike Lysander. He's a beatstick. The problem is he also makes your army *think* it's a beatstick in turn (Marines as a rule generally shoot a *lot* better than they Assault), and if you've lost a melee *so* badly that Stubborn would have made a difference to begin with, chances are you will want to flee (Combat Tactics) then ATSKNF. Or you could avoid melee through having enough Rhino Hulls available to block assault vectors (the rhino triangle, or other variants of "choo-choo" training with Rhino hulls and having your Marines get out to shoot stuff in turn, all help to mitigate the ability of an opponent to assault). Pedro has similar issues due to Stubornness, though at least he lets you run Sternguard-heavy builds more reliably. Just...not Podded, because those builds are just plain terrible.

Hrm...Special Character HQs? Other than Vulkan (and occasionally Pedro), I like Shrike or Khan, and the latter is mostly because I'm a fan of Hit and Run. For the most part though, I just shrug, go "Librarian" and that is that. I *might* experiment with Tigurius despite him being overcosted, just because I like reserve manipulation.

[Shadows Revenge]

The only two competitive lists Ive seen in a long time with SM that run a special character is Vulkan and Khan, although the latter is expensive and hard to convert (so Ive heard).

Shrike is cool, and I love him to deat (Raven Guard being the only Marines I like) but its a one trick pony, and any experience player can and will stay out of your charge range.

IMHO Calgar has an amazing ability, but costs too much for it. Think about it though, the ability to stick around and tarpit something shooty, and the ability to get out of dodge and shoot something assaulty is nice, yet sadly it comes with two PF and another tacted on ability no one cares about. If only he was alittle cheaper :/ Id run him in a heart beat, if I played marines ofc

[Malfush]

I've used Calgar in Apocalypse, so this probably won't count. I've found that if you just plug him into a THSS termie squad, and give them an appropriate transport (I personally used a Storm Lord), they can do amazing things. Calgar's special rule is "meh" at times, but his fists can cause a massive amount of damage. His points are blah, in Apoc that's ok, but in regular 40k, it might be a problem.

[Idaho]

In contradiction to everyone here, I will say Calgar is a good choice in a Space Marine army, but you have to build a specific army he can complement rather than your "normal" Space Marine list.

Calgar is expensive, but not so expensive when you think about what he offers. Due to his staying power and independent character status, he can attach to a unit so we should start here.

In my mind there are 2 ways to use him; leading a dedicated assault force to smash face or act as a strong, nuggety centre of a unit to enhance it's capacity and impact on the table.

The first way is hit or miss and this is where the concern of cost comes. You either get him into assault and wipe out plenty of stuff or the transport gets totalled and you end up achieving little.

The second way is much more interesting and ultimately effective I believe because it is harder to counter. Attach him to a unit which mirrors his own abilities so he complements their use on the table, or put him in a unit as that tough centre to provide an extra bit of capacity and tenacity.

As an example, Calgar can accompany a unit of Terminators and dominate the midfield. This protects your back line units and the Terminators themselves. After all, who wants to go through Calgar to try and munch that objective camping Tactical squad, especially when Calgar has his mates with him? The beauty of this is Calgar can shoot and you can allocate as many hits as you can on Calgar to protect the squad of Terminators. Marching up the table or towards objectives you can easily charge later on, after shooting the enemy up a few turns of course. A common usage of this method is 10 Terminators with 2 Heavy weapons and Calgar at its juicy core.

Another way of using Calgar is by attaching him to a Drop Podding unit. A Tactical squad with Calgar becomes a real threat when dropped in the centre of the enemy, particular if you have other alpha striking elements. Same goes for Sternguard. In fact he can run alongside Sternguard in a Rhino if you wanted to use him in power armour, with his AP2 Storm Bolter really contributing whilst the usual anti-Sternguard tactic to charge them becomes suicide with Calgar in the unit.

[Azash76]

I've heard of some Calgar lists but honestly I have never heard of them ever being successful I have never read or seen a Battle Report with a Calgar list mostly its allot of people experimenting with the list. However I would have to agree with Idaho that you can't field Calgar in a generic SM list he is similar to Vulkan, Khan, and Kantor in that you really have to tailor your list to him so he can make your list more effective and your list can make him fore effective.

That being said the other posters are right as well. He is spendy and a unit that expensive a) never scales down that well and b) will always keep some decent alternatives off the table for you. However the same can be said about Tigarius costing 230 pts and floating it with 2 wounds and no invuln and I have seen effective lists with Tigarius in them. So it really depends on the rest of your list.

On a side note I seem to recall reading about Calgar lists with 3 units of 3 man honor guard squads so the list had a total of 3 chapter champs. I believe the idea was to drop pod them to form a counter charge or diversionary alpha strike. Having never played him or seen any BR's with results with Calgar lists can't really say it was effective.

[Koval, Master Verispex]

On a side note I seem to recall reading about Calgar lists with 3 units of 3 man honor guard squads so the list had a total of 3 chapter champs. I believe the idea was to drop pod them to form a counter charge or diversionary alpha strike. Having never played him or seen any BR's with results with Calgar lists can't really say it was effective.

Depending on how big those Honour Guard units were, that would've been a horrendously expensive use (or misuse?) of Calgar's rules -- even an off-the-shelf Honour Guard unit runs you over a hundred points, so three like that would be just shy of 350. With upgrades, even worse, on top of Calgar being more expensive than a Land Raider. That's rather a lot of points that I, personally, could be spending on other units like Sternguard; if I wanted forty-point infantry by the bucketload, I'd play Grey Knights or a Warrior-heavy Tyranid army.

[Azash76]

that would've been a horrendously expensive use (or misuse?) of Calgar's rules --

Just to clairify the rules part it's one of Calgar's ability's he allows you to take up to 3 Honor Guard Squads.

Agreed though it's very expensive and probably useless for everything outside of Apoc and Ard Boy'z. Could be effective though never know till it hits the table kinda like the Khan/Tigarius lists where you spend 435 pts on HQ's alone. Useless outside of Ard Boy'z cause of the points cost but having seen them in action they are effective lists.

[Admiral Dred]

@Magicjuggler

You complain about Lysander but you don't recognize any of his attributes.

1.Easily the strongest character in the codex, losing only to Calgar (perhaps).  Can reliably do away with a dread a turn with only slight luck. 

2.T4 W4 with 2+ and 3++ with Eternal Warrior.  He doesn't mess around when he says he is THE toughest Vanilla character.   

3.Bolster Defenses, which some people overlook.  Boosts the whole army, and can give you a 'base' for your Devs and what not. 

4.A really nice thunder hammer 

5.Bolter Drill.  A good bonus, devastating in some scenarios.  Twin linked bolters?  Yesh pleaze! 

5.Stubborn.  As you say meh, but strong LD 9 and 10 along the board, and with Lysander, I would stay in the fight, he wrecks stuff. 

6.Can put in three core units to maximize potential. 

7.Combat Terminators.  This one is obvious.  A bulky, tough and downright relentless unit that can reliably obliterate anything in their path.  Lysander ups the scariness and snags your mandatory HQ. 

8.Tactical Terminators.  These guys are meh, rerolling them shots is a bit of a waste, but they are essentially assault termies in combat, so you cant go too much wrong.   

9And the big one : STERNGUARD.   With Bolter Drill and the juicy rapid fire, these guys can do some amazing things.  With Kraken Rounds, meh.  Good range, but you want to move and at that range you should be closing in.   
Vengeance Rounds.  Amazing.  With test rolls, in rapid fire range, you will get around 15 to 17 hits and one gets hot!.  Which has a good chance to be saved.  1/5 turns approx you will lose a marine to  Gets Hot!  VERY good odds.  This murders Marines, about 6-8 each turn, forcing a leadership test and basically wrecking the unit.  Gets better vs expensive marines like Berserkers.  Gets Darnaths points back about 
Dragonfire.  Meh.  Not too much though, but make sure it is getting full potential. 

And then (drumroll) Hellfire.  ONE round of shooting from this reliably puts down a NightBringer.  Yes, a NIGHTBRINGER, very possibly the toughest non-vehicle unit in the game.  That pays for Lysander and a good chunk of the Sternguard, in one turn, and hugely reduced the effectiveness of their army.  And without Bolter Drill, the Nightbringer will probably walk away, albeit injured.  A turn of different targets is a good investment. 

You say that Lysander is bad by saying that the Marines think they are beatstick or something like that.  Not really, and then you say Marine shooting is not as good as assault.  I have no idea where that fits in because I thoroughly explained that Lysander is an indirect beast in the shooting phase.  And while all this is happening big Darnath the tank crusher can just wander around popping tanks.  Since Thraka, who smashed 2 land raiders in a turn for me, I haven't known a more intimidating character. 

Please respond with your ideas.  You will probably be right in the end as a veteran and all that but this is my idea.

Plus I love his model 

[Koval, Master Verispex]

The problem with Lysander is that although he's brilliant, he's also going to waste about half of his abilities no matter how you use him. If you stick him in a close combat unit (as I personally would), then Bolter Drill is wasted, and if you stick him with a shooty unit and abuse Rapid Fire (which is actually what I'd use Kantor for) then he's not using his thunder hammer. I personally think he's amazing but honestly, he's a close combat character with ranged buffs that should've gone to someone else.

[Admiral Dred]

That is true, but remember, he can break off and destroy stuff happily from 12" and his Sternguard unit can still fire.   In a melee unit, he makes up his points and Bolter Drill is just ignored.  Lets look at him vs a Captain in points

Check your codex for Darnath and Captain base points cost.

Darnaths upgraded thunder hammer is about a 35-40 point weapon to me.  His shield would just be worth a normal storm shield.   His equipment alone is already worth to me half of his points over a captain.

Another wound and Eternal warrior?  That is worth a chunk of points.  Then stubborn across the board which is worth a decent amount of points too.  Then bolster Defenses, then Bolter Drill,  and dont forget his thunder hammer is master-crafted...

If you were to take Darnath for what he is and ignore bolter drill, he acts as an amazing Captain who gets point-efficient upgrades that turns him into a monster and adds stubborn AND bolster defenses.  Ignore Bolter Drill, just because he has one different ability doesn't put him into limbo.  You waste one ability, and he can soak wounds for your sternguard or run off and destroy anything in his path.  And Kantor, while good, is not very good in combat, doesn't cost that much less then Lysander, and his attack bonus is wasted if you are spamming rapid fire anyways.  Anyway you look at it, as you stated in your first sentence, he IS brilliant.

Edit: Sorry to stray off topic, on Marneus, he is a good character, and fight most other characters well.  He is fighty to a degree, but is somewhat wasted points.  If you are fighting monstrous creatures then he is ok, but vs normal troops Titanic Might is a bit wasted.  Dont overlook him, but remember that you pay a price for him, and as other people have suggested, you build around him, or dont take him at all.

As a fluff character, he is good, his model is wicked (the new one) but his ability to take more honor guard is a bit silly, as generally honor guard are not amazing but like most other units can be used to a fearsome degree, I wouldn't take him, but I sure someone can use him well.

[gmod]Better to be more sorry for double posting without need. The modify button, it's fantastic.[/gmod]

[pudd]

I know it doesn't mean too much but in addition to the gauntlets, calgar also has a power sword so titanic might is useful when using this. Unfortunately he doesn't have a pistol or something for the extra attack but using the sword means you're making use of his higher initiative.

[Koval, Master Verispex]

If you were to take Darnath for what he is and ignore bolter drill, he acts as an amazing Captain who gets point-efficient upgrades that turns him into a monster and adds stubborn AND bolster defenses.  Ignore Bolter Drill, just because he has one different ability doesn't put him into limbo.  You waste one ability, and he can soak wounds for your sternguard or run off and destroy anything in his path.

See, I'm the sort of person that would almost never have a special character running around on their own, unless the character isn't an IC (looking at you, Sanguinor) -- in Lysander's case, although I don't use him, I drew up a couple of lists in which I had him running around with a nice chunky unit of Terminators in a Land Raider (which admittedly is a common and logical use for him).

And Kantor, while good, is not very good in combat, doesn't cost that much less then Lysander, and his attack bonus is wasted if you are spamming rapid fire anyways.

Not necessarily. If you keep the Sternguard right on the front lines and fairly close to a big melee unit (probably Assault Terminators, but Honour Guard also fit the bill since Kantor is a Chapter Master), you can still abuse Inspiring Presence for fun and profit.

Edit: Sorry to stray off topic, on Marneus, he is a good character, and fight most other characters well.  He is fighty to a degree, but is somewhat wasted points.  If you are fighting monstrous creatures then he is ok, but vs normal troops Titanic Might is a bit wasted.

That's exactly it, though -- on anything smaller than a Talos or possibly Carnifex, Titanic Might is more or less redundant, so short of fighting Eldar (either variety) or Tyranids, he's ultimately a double-fist Chapter Master with gimmicky shooting and some cheerleader stuff.

[Admiral Dred]

Good point, and remember that Titanic Might comes into its own when you decide to smash a beastie's face in.  And the good thing about his fists, is that unlike Kantor, Calgar can take a hit.

Forgot about the power sword, it can do well and he will get good wounds in.  I am guessing effective when in a terminator squad.   I think it means a lot.  5 power weapon attacks at WS 6 and I 5 rerolling wounds?  Not too shabby 
 
@Koval  Of course you dont want your little marine sprinting around before an erratic shoota round blasts his brains out, but Lysander can easily get stuck in with a fat beasty can maul nice and good, without getting pegged.  Notice I said charging out of the Sternguard squad, not starting out of it.  If you are worried by misusing his fearsome strength, he can charge away into say a Carnie or Dread and kill it.  And you dont entirely waste him because he soaks up heavy wounds that would being knocking away your guys like flies.

About Kantor, the problem is that he is downright weak in combat.  Not to say anything of a Space Marines ability (can already hear a Chaplain coming to end me for Heresy), but the powerfist wastes his I without being special, his storm bolter is meh more than anything, (I would rather have Lysanders Bolter Drill) and he lacks Eternal Warrior.  All this time his stats are Chapter Master.  Kantor can be singled out and squashed like nothing.  After that his ability is gone and your expensive Sternguard will lose attacks.  The objective they are sitting on is lost.  To me at least, Kantor doesn't pack enough offensive or defensive power.  He is strictly a support unit, and I feel that that is much better filled by the much cheaper and tougher Cassius. 

Kantor vs Lysander

Stubborn BOTH
Sternguard scoring Kantor
Good in combat Kantor to a degree, but no match for Lysander
Shooting Lysander
Invul Lysander
Armor Lysander
Extra Attacks Kantor though in your scenario he is packing it into passerby units and a shooty unit
Ability to eat anything in your path Lysander
Bolster Defenses Lysander
Orbital Bombarment Kantor

Personally, I dont like Kantor.  The times I have faced him with my orks he was killed immediately due to klaws, his bombarment was superficial and his attack bonus was underwhelming.  I can see what you are getting at but to me I am not convinced 

Ahh, global moderators ever so snarky  lol joking (because if I wasn't, I would be feeling their unearthly might ripping me to pieces before sending my existence into an internal implosion wiping the universe with my ethereal remains).

Ummm, what? 

[MagicJuggler]

Dred: I take that running Lysander with Sternguard means a Pod List? If not...what sort of pointsink monstrosity are you running?

You want to play Melee-happy? Get proper units for it. If you're using Lysander as a protection character/a Self-contained Terminator squad, that can be understandable, but for the points...why? Sure one can talk about how he has bargain wargear relative to a captain, but this is an illusion. The core Space Marine captain is overcosted, costing more than a base Tactical Squad, and the points spent to upgrade him eating at the rest of your army. The main reason for his existence is to unlock Bikers, or occasional assassin duty if you're lucky. By contrast, the Librarian provides utility powers, antipsi defense, is not *that* much worse at killing (fun is tankshocking blobs of mooks into formation for Avenger), and does this without requiring additional investment in points...you know, the points that go to fielding more units, especially of the Razorback/Predator/Autodread variety. It means points to give your sergeants Combiweapons, or field *real* Assault units (like Assault Terminators).

In short, you overrvalue Lysander just because "melee monster heroes" are actually becoming an endangered aspect of 40k. Some beatsticks are around, but arw doing more for their army as well.