Topic: new chaos codex discussion

[Greg23]

It would also open them up to more charges of attempting to con people out of their money by forcing people to buy two rulebooks to use certain lists.

  I don't think so.  Regardless of whether people like the army lists or not, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Black Templar are stand alone codices that don't need the Marine codex.  Granted, most of these players get the Space Marine codex anyway, but they don't need it.  And GW did state that any new codices will be stand-alone. 

  I've heard many things, good and bad, about these SMurf Chapter Codices, but the one thing I haven't heard were moans and groans about profiteering.  If anything, players enjoy new "alternate" lists in complete codices.

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

Yeah but Yyseth was talking about supplementary codices, the exact opposite of what you're talking.

[Greg23]

Yeah but Yyseth was talking about supplementary codices, the exact opposite of what you're talking.

  Even so, I'd take a $15 suppliment to a $20 codex and get to use the models that I have over spending $200 "updating" models because the new rules made my old list obsolete. Now that's profiteering.

  The Chaos players I know groan because the Legion lists were popular.  The EC player isn't happy that his Daemon Prince got the nerf and really isn't happy that he'll need DG or 1k Sons to round out a flexible list.  He wants a well rounded EC list, not some 1/2 baked list of random stragglers following a disguntled ex-Ultramarine renegade.

[Calus Drakin]

I have mixed feelings about the new codex myself. My army of choice is gone ( Night Lords ) so I have to make more of an effort to make it fluffier ( Also, wtf ? Coruscating Energy plays across the armour of the Night Lords ? The lightning is a motif, not supposed to be actual energy. Sheesh, whoever wrote the book obviously knew nothing, if not very little in the form of fluff. )

Also, things are a lot cheaper without and veteran skills adding a lot of points. My 2250 list with the old codex now only stretches to half that and it takes every model I have and some I'm planning on getting just to reach the new 2250 mark. Plus not only are things cheaper, a lot of them actually come with the most commonly taken upgrades from the last version. All vehicles now automatically have smoke launchers now for example.

[Yyseth]

It would also open them up to more charges of attempting to con people out of their money by forcing people to buy two rulebooks to use certain lists.

Which is unusual how?

Yeah but Yyseth was talking about supplementary codices, the exact opposite of what you're talking.

They reckon they're bringing out a Daemon Codex in a year or two... since it'll be extremely difficult to make that full-size why not bung rules in like the ones in the books of chaos from the last codex in the back of there? People will want to buy it to get the daemons aswell, everyone's happy.*

I have mixed feelings about the new codex myself. My army of choice is gone ( Night Lords ) so I have to make more of an effort to make it fluffier ( Also, wtf ? Coruscating Energy plays across the armour of the Night Lords ? The lightning is a motif, not supposed to be actual energy. Sheesh, whoever wrote the book obviously knew nothing, if not very little in the form of fluff. )

Also, things are a lot cheaper without and veteran skills adding a lot of points. My 2250 list with the old codex now only stretches to half that and it takes every model I have and some I'm planning on getting just to reach the new 2250 mark. Plus not only are things cheaper, a lot of them actually come with the most commonly taken upgrades from the last version. All vehicles now automatically have smoke launchers now for example.

I have mixed feelings about the new codex myself. My army of choice is gone ( Night Lords ) so I have to make more of an effort to make it fluffier ( Also, wtf ? Coruscating Energy plays across the armour of the Night Lords ? The lightning is a motif, not supposed to be actual energy. Sheesh, whoever wrote the book obviously knew nothing, if not very little in the form of fluff. )

This is Gav Thorpe we're talking about, the guy wrote some of the most unimaginitive material in the history of writing novels...

Also, things are a lot cheaper without and veteran skills adding a lot of points. My 2250 list with the old codex now only stretches to half that and it takes every model I have and some I'm planning on getting just to reach the new 2250 mark. Plus not only are things cheaper, a lot of them actually come with the most commonly taken upgrades from the last version. All vehicles now automatically have smoke launchers now for example.

I like that at least, cheaper pre-upgraded vehicles and an army which stretches further. It's not bad that, I'm happy about it, though it must be said things like upgrades are steep. Sniper predators are good but sponsons aren't worth it IMO, not when you can get a land raider for 220pts. As for veteran skills they will be missed.

*Subject to whether or not Gav Thorpe writes that codex aswell

[Muggins]

I've had the new codex for a week now, and, while I'm still dealing with the massive changes to my 1k Sons, I really don't have too much of a problem. There is way more variety available- you can really change the composition and quantity of your troops around, and the more cheesy options are gone. Basically, all units become more viable- raptors are now affordable, chosen make sense without being terminators, defilers fit the model, and so on. Let's face it, part of the fun of this hobby is adpating to new rules and finding new ways to win. Now we don't have to worry about Slaaneshi Demon princes that are almost unkillable or Iron Warriors armies that destroy all but a few armies. You can really do some far-out combinations now, which weren't possible before, and most tactics are possible. Want Night Lords? Load up on Chosen. Want Khorne? Add raptors or bikers to aid your berserkers. Want Iron Warriors? Load up on Dreads, Vindicators and Preds, with two small units of troops. Lack of restrictions equals more freedom to actually conform to the fluff (or your idea of the fluff).

I'm personally keen to try Tzeentchy Raptors. However, a full Dustwing of Tzeentch Terminators appeals- paint them right and kit them cheaply, they can still be Thousand Sons in feel...

[spunkybass]

I'm with you, muggins. My first thought when the new codex came out was like "shock! horror! now we're just 1W!" But i got over it real fast. Way more flexible to build an army. So flexible, I've got several different viable lists - and that's just Thousand Sons alone! Tzeentch termies are great - especially since I feel compelled to use them, having put it the time and money to convert a favored squad ... but yes, all in all, good stuff

[Greg23]

I've had the new codex for a week now, and, while I'm still dealing with the massive changes to my 1k Sons, I really don't have too much of a problem. There is way more variety available- you can really change the composition and quantity of your troops around, and the more cheesy options are gone. Basically, all units become more viable- raptors are now affordable, chosen make sense without being terminators, defilers fit the model, and so on. Let's face it, part of the fun of this hobby is adpating to new rules and finding new ways to win. Now we don't have to worry about Slaaneshi Demon princes that are almost unkillable or Iron Warriors armies that destroy all but a few armies. You can really do some far-out combinations now, which weren't possible before, and most tactics are possible. Want Night Lords? Load up on Chosen. Want Khorne? Add raptors or bikers to aid your berserkers. Want Iron Warriors? Load up on Dreads, Vindicators and Preds, with two small units of troops. Lack of restrictions equals more freedom to actually conform to the fluff (or your idea of the fluff).

I'm personally keen to try Tzeentchy Raptors. However, a full Dustwing of Tzeentch Terminators appeals- paint them right and kit them cheaply, they can still be Thousand Sons in feel...

  I know what your saying, that the codex will give options to some diehard legionaires to build their lists.  But some choices just become dumb or no-brainers.  Havocs with the Mark of Khorne?  Chaos Termies without the Mark of Khorne, or any mark for that matter.  Sticking to fluff for the sake of fluff may be feasible for composition, but the tactics of one combination in a Vanilla list that disregards fluff in favor of effectiveness cannot be denied.

  The codex is only a few weeks old and already I'm hearing, "Spawns Suck, 1k Sons are a no-brainer, 2 Daemon Princes with Lash Whip a must-have, Chaos Sorcerer overpriced and useless without Mark of Tzeentch, Possessed unreliable, etc."

 

[nekochen]

  I know what your saying, that the codex will give options to some diehard legionaires to build their lists.  But some choices just become dumb or no-brainers.  Havocs with the Mark of Khorne?  Chaos Termies without the Mark of Khorne, or any mark for that matter.  Sticking to fluff for the sake of fluff may be feasible for composition, but the tactics of one combination in a Vanilla list that disregards fluff in favor of effectiveness cannot be denied.

  The codex is only a few weeks old and already I'm hearing, "Spawns Suck, 1k Sons are a no-brainer, 2 Daemon Princes with Lash Whip a must-have, Chaos Sorcerer overpriced and useless without Mark of Tzeentch, Possessed unreliable, etc."

That's because of the inexperience we are all having right now. I can see someone step up right now and call themselves expert in the field despite the codex has only been released for a couple weeks, surely, they are all experts in their own little dimension because they've all read the codex 10 times through or more, letter by letter, trying to find loopholes and all. Truth to told, are they really all that? I seriously doubt so. In a couple months from now, we'll look back at all the tactics we've invented in just this short couple weeks and perhaps we'll even replace them with newer, better strategies.

.. With that being said, I don't think Spawn sucks, they are a chaos variant of swarm; I don't think 1k son is no brainer, they are still marines and I'd love to go up against a 1k son army with my imperial guards/tyranids, bring on the AP3 bolters and see if I care; I don't think 2 princes with lash is so great like the majority says, that's because they've never faced against a mechanized eldar/tau army with this list before; I don't think Tzeentch Sorcerer is the only way to go.. I usually play a Slaanesh Sorcerer with Warp Time instead of my Slaanesh Lord for the same purpose, except I6 Force Weapon + Warp Time really hurts T6 monstrous creatures; I think the Possessed are great as it is, they are worth every point cost. They are S5 assault marines that can take a Rhino for transport. Any random bonus they get are .. like it says, BONUS.. nothing can go wrong with a bonus.

[Calus Drakin]

As I continue to read through the codex proper, I have found myself just pondering the chosen entry in the army list. I fail to see the point in paying an extra ten points to upgrade to an aspiring champion just for one extra attack. He gets no other options or upgrades that aren't available to the whole unit. The only point I can see is if you're including a Greater Demon.

Also, Chosen have two options that allow models to pick a Flamer, Plasma-gun or Meltagun. One option says one model can choose it. The other option says up to four can. Does this mean you can end up with one ? Four ? or can you add them together for a total of 5 ?

[Sanctjud]

Chosen Aspiring Champions:

1.Greater Daemon Delivery
2.Adds more attacks to weapons (power weapon, fist, claws.....) if you don't take icon of khorne.

Total of 5, they wanted to differentiat the one dude that can have a 'Heavy' weapon cost you a 'special' weapon slot.

[robdark22]

being the chaos codex is just about 2 weeks old i been playing someone who want to get rid of his plague marines and ask him to play them. after he played them after on Monday he beat me because i couldn't dislodge them fast enough to win the game . nice to know that even eldar having str 6 guns can still have  hard time kicking nurgle off the objective. to me you have more flexibility in the new dex as someone has type but you also get more ability to group support tactics in this dex then the last one. to me if you playing chaos 2 units could in fact dominate the game no being that you have more survivability and can keep pushing the assault for one more turning be most people have to go on the defense suppolsty.

but after reading it for about  3 or 4 days off and on the combination are exciting to me a book that can compete with the eldar codex and property give it a run for it money being that you have a good shooting base and counter shooting to support the army. that was really the biggest thing i saw they did making it more nasty for chaos. your standard army could be a 24inch standard move and shoot army giving you extra firepower in the heavily support meaning even if you should move not very far you always able to shot at someone. in my eyes that just as important in playing 40k is keeping the pressure on someone army  to were there at  breaking point or just don't know how to handle the army just yet. but besides the terminators  are alot better being that you get more option at the cost of getting point crazy over them spending about 250 for a unit of 6.

minus the fact they need to be fix in 4th ed i love the new book to death as much, so much i would as anyone to play them before playing space marine as a first army. reason number 1 is that you get more learning exp for playing the new codex them playing space marine because you army has more diversity in the unit then you can thorough a stick at.

[Muggins]

  I know what your saying, that the codex will give options to some diehard legionaires to build their lists.  But some choices just become dumb or no-brainers.  Havocs with the Mark of Khorne?  Chaos Termies without the Mark of Khorne, or any mark for that matter.  Sticking to fluff for the sake of fluff may be feasible for composition, but the tactics of one combination in a Vanilla list that disregards fluff in favor of effectiveness cannot be denied.

  The codex is only a few weeks old and already I'm hearing, "Spawns Suck, 1k Sons are a no-brainer, 2 Daemon Princes with Lash Whip a must-have, Chaos Sorcerer overpriced and useless without Mark of Tzeentch, Possessed unreliable, etc."

 

Actually, I think you are all over-rating the 1k sons in the new version. They still need to get to the objective, they die badly in massed weapons fire, and anyhting that could be killed by AP5 bolters still get killed by AP3 bolters. Selectively used against marines or large nids, 1k are great. But you can't expose them like you used to, and they really need to be protected and used at the right moment. 1k sons is still a difficult army- still no heavy weapons, still low model count, and now more fragile but more dangerous.

Chaos spawn are great for tying people up- take five and engage those sentinels, or jump that heavy weapons squad. More useful than the old screamers, that they are. The Chaos sorceror depends on what you use him for- he's a support character, not the lead. You support close-combat or supplement firepower. Again, needs practice at using him. Two demon princes? Remember, they are not that fast any more, and you will take a lot of shooting. And they are vulnerable in assault....

[Yyseth]

I've found that the list is a little less vanilla than I originally expected. Yes so wargear customisation has gone but it's still possible to make most of the legions work. Though Iron Warriors and Word Bearers (though daemon weapons and the built in 5+ invulnerable save surely make it adequate) aren't what they used to be and Alpha Legion lost the only thing making them unique which says to me some fluff can be created as a reason to take the Imperial Guard and use them as allies as "cultist guardsmen" or something, same I guess for Iron Warriors provided you get some basilisks and such in there. I do miss some of the wargear though, servo arms, spiky bits, daemonic gifts, that stuff made chaos a lot more special.

Despite my previous objections I've come to realise that it's a lot easier for beginners to have a chaos force AND provided the daemon codex allows for some kind of cultist and legion lists I think it will prove to be more than adequate. As far as non-hq goes I'm a lot happier (except for the obliterators, I personally think they're better as elites but not by enough for me to protest as I have been doing with the wargear loss for hq choices).

[Massaen]

with regards to the codex daemonica, don't hold your breath for the cross over - word is the C:CSM and C:D will not be intermixable... Why include basic daemons in 1 book only to make them obselete in the next?

The basic daemons were apparently put in to show that the pacts made by marines to summon daemons are never as complete as when a mortal sells his soul...

Think of the next book showing you a warp rift and you are about right - at least from my sources... dubious as they may be!!!

[Yyseth]

It wouldn't make them obsolete though it'd be like having undivided normal daemons and undivided greater daemons. The next codex would be better as a "books of chaos" with god-specific daemons and greater daemons which would not make the ones in the old obsolete, merely keeping them as the vanilla flavoured ones.

As for the pact representation... surely there are better ways of it happening than to completely strip down all the special skills of daemons and such. It's making for an unfortunate lack of decent show... they're all wingless close combat daemons now, bloodletters are about the only daemons truly represented as a result...

[Calus Drakin]

I would rather assume that the demons are so basic in the CSM codex because they're all being completely reworked. If they come out with a Codex: Demons and CSM still can't take anything but the basic demons in their own book, that's almost as bad as no demons at all.

[Yyseth]

It's worse really cause it's a taunt. Like handing a padlocked mini-safe to a starving man and telling him there's a donut inside.

[Sanctjud]

A daemonically possessed donut..!!!


That's funny....

So if a person plays a 90% zekers in a "world eaters" army.... Khorne won't see fit to send some Bloodletters to "help out" or add to the blood shed....

Bloodletters and Bloodthirsters are too good for World Eatersa and Bezerkers to summon.

Until it comes out, we won't know... but in the meantime, Thx GW....thx for giving me these generic daemons that are nothing more than a spammable scoring units and tarp tip units.

[Yyseth]

Yep, that's the way the info given reads...

Sucks really cause the only thing I can think of to work would be: Get the old horned rat and bung him on a round base... Get some skaven on round bases... Count them as undivided, wingless, ballisticless, traitless daemon-rats. That's the closest thing to an idea I've had for it.
And it sucks!
I approve.