Topic: Eldar Close-Combat

[Grizzlykin]

huuuuuu  banshee, in small groups ...  i haven't been able to make them work much, I will be posting the battle report  some time soon, once i've done them, but they did not had much inmpact in my opinion, perhaps the rest of the list did not help them, and they lost quite a fair few of their member before getting there. That's why i will be trying them in a 10 man blob with jain zar in the future and tell you about it aswell.

[Lyonic]

If u check my banshee 1500 i put in 45 banshees, all in 5 man groups. Means concentrates fire doesent work, and against big tough units they can only kill one unit at a time which would work well i think. I like running a gun like with mobility and deploy scorpions to screen more vulnerable units and have a reaction squad incase of deep strikers!

[davethemadorc]

"storm guardians.. Lol
banshees.. 5's to wound marines?.... Lol
wraithblades.. Have 1 attack base and horrible mobility.. Not to mention they are twice as expensive as a scorpion.
scorpions.. Excellent horde killers but nothing else.
wraithlord..anythin g able to shoot at this guy is going to ignore armour anyways and its to slow! Getting into combat turn 3-4 is 33% of the game useless.
wraithknight.. Outstanding.. Take lots!"

got to say i kinda agree with lyonic - however laconic he may be !   scorpions get to be Stx due to the chainsword - quins get Tx due to furious charge but  the girls still get 'acrobatic'  - i like axeguard  - but they get even fewer attacks at very low i.

with two virtually back to back codexes we kinda have to assume that the wraithknight love might have some financial motive  - run in a trio they are just so good and makes the "we dont have any decent cc units" argument just disappear - the problem is its a bit cheesy for 'friendly games' and  tbh one or even two dont compare with the synergy you get from three !

my 'friendly' alternative for 1750 pts games is to run  'mid-range'  capabilty unit that hides a bit of a sting, but retains some mobility [wavzerpent]

maxed out da unit - with ss/ps ex - fuegan for heavy duty kills and an autarch with firesabre+ fusion gun for extra  apx killy. da unit gives them all counter-attack, so not always critical to get the charge in - decent potential for anti-tank - possible to split against multiple 'soft' targets, fearless due to pheonix lord.

seems expensive but have been running it as my 'go to' core unit for about 6 months now and although it can get vapourised with some bad save throws [da are only medium armour after all]  at least they have a base iv save, can produce apx shooting and  with battle focus have a reasnable threat range.

i tend to make the autarch warlord as feugan is then 'disposable' and  most warlord traits are potentially better than 'split fire'

another unit to not overlook as a decent cc unit is shiny spears - i have an army list i call 'spear-dar' which runs three units of 7 - all with ex + starlance + h&r - it performs reasonably well except against nidz.

Edited for stats.  Please see forum rule 1 for details - Iris.

[Ibushi]

I have to say I am loving this thread, and I am now going to throw down the gauntlet:

there is an 1850 charity tournament coming up in my area, where comp is a big part of the points, so I am keen to take a CC-focused Eldar list and see how it does.

THE CHALLENGE:

write an 1850 combat Eldar list that will be able to hold its own in a tournament environment.

Structure: 1x Eldar CAD + 0-1 Allied Eldar + Harlequin Cast of Players/Aspect Host etc. Formation detachment.

Deadline: September 11th, 9am PST (day the lists are due to the tournament organizer).

Since my models are samurai conversions anyway, I can basically make them be any combat units except wraithblades (unfortunately).

One concept I have is:

Karandras
Eldrad
10 Scorpions - exarch w/ claw
Wave Serpent

10 Guardians - BL
10 Guardians - BL
3x3 jetbikes

Dark Reapers
3x War Walkers - SL
Wraithlord - sword
Avatar

Void Shield Generator

* concept is to infiltrate then scout the scorpions inside their tank, dropping out turn 1 with stealth+shrouded to weather incoming fire.
* Avatar and wraithlord could also scout forward if possible.
* Guardians run interference while jetbikes cap objectives.

Alternatively we have:

Eldrad
Jain Zar

8 Harlequins w/ caresses + Shadowseer + Jester
Wave Serpent

3x10 Guardians w/ BL
2x 3 Jetbikes

2x Wraithlords w/ swords

Avatar
VSG

Have at 'em!

[dog_of_war]

Avatar and wraithlords are a killer combo. I sometimes take as many as 3 naked ones and run them up the field as blockers for the avatar. I unfortunately don't have an up to date dark eldar codex or the new harlequin codex, so I'll come up with a pure craftworld list for you tonight.

[Fenris]

CC oriented I would probably do something like:
Jain Zar
Karandras
Stormhost
Aspect host melee withone unit of each:
Banshees
Scorpions
Shining spears

Avatar
+As many wraithlords I could fit, rough estimate 2 W.lords. @1850p

[Lyonic]

The issue I have with guardians is they are too expensive to simply sit back and hold an objective which firing 1 lance shot now and again. Stick some rangers on that objective and enjoy a TEQ cover save!

remember what I said about scorpions, if its horde, awsome, elite, awful. Make sure you take lots of ApTEQ shooting via star cannons to compensate. A squad of war walkers running 6 star cannons is nasty. 12 shots can soften stuff up nicely for scorps to actually work. Karandras is too expensive for a tourney list. If anything you can go autarchs with masks, skyrunner farseers. Farseers are our best unit in the codex in terms of points i feel. Re-roll tests, ghost helm.. Jst nice.

if u can take 1 wraithknight as its too good not to. Run him glaive and send him up inside your enemies face.

[Ibushi]

So right now for aesthetic and effectiveness reasons I am leaning towards Harlequins, thinking something like:


Stormhost:
Farseer - spear
Storm Guardians w/ 2 fusion, 2 power sword + Warlock
Storm Guardians - 2 fusion, 2 sword
Storm Guardians - 2 fusion, 2 sword
Vyper
3 Walkers - SL
2 D-cannons

Avatar
Jain Zar (can go with storms, or with harlies)

Eldar CAD
Farseer WARLORD
Spiritseer
3 Jetbikes
3 Jetbikes
Void Shield Generator

Harlequin Cast of Players:
Shadowseer - ML2, haywire, Mask
Death Jester - haywire
Troupe Leader - haywire, caress
9 Harlies - 6 Caresses

My plan is to make this army worthy of top table in terms of aesthetics and actual gaming performance, so C&C much appreciated.

If you think there is an Eldar way of doing CC that can tackle hordes, AV, deathstars, SHV/GCs in a TAC fashion better than this, this is the thread for it.

Cheers
Ibushi

[dog_of_war]

If you had wraithblades available, I could tweak the list to be a little bit stronger, but this is what I came up with Ibushi

CAD 1 [1070]

Karandras (200)
Autarch w/ banshee mask + shard of anaris (115)

Dire Avengers x 9 + exarch w/ PW+SS (160)
Dire Avengers x 9 + exarch w/ PW+SS (160)

Wraithlord w/x2 flamers (120)
Wraithlord w/x2 flamers (120)

Avatar of Khaine (195)

CAD 2 [320]

Farseer w/singing spear (105)

Storm guardians x 10 (90)
Storm guardians x 10 + warlock (125)

Aspect Host [460]
Warp Spiders x4 + exarch w/powerblades (125)
Warp Spiders x4 + exarch w/powerblades (125)
Striking Scorpions x 9 + exarch w/ scorpion's claw (210)

Karandras outflanks with scorpions. Avatar wraithlords form a wall that forms a core to flank your dire avengers and storm guardians. Dire avengers lead to take any charges and drop massive shuriken fire. Storm guardians counter-charge. Autarch + farseer drop into storm guardian unit with warlock taking advantage of conceal. Farseer buffs. Autarch is a nasty character assasin. Basically play hammer and anvil style. Moving your castle forward, driving them to you with Karandras.

[Ibushi]

I like that plan Mr wardog, thanks for the list.

I think it could be re-jigged to a cad + formation + allied structure to work, right now the tournament doesn't allow double CAD for whatever reason.

Karandras and the Avatar have some tank killing power, but that would be the main weakness otherwise I think.

The idea of dire avengers with SS, fearless, and BS2 overwatch is really solid, i like it.

[dog_of_war]

Could drop to a single CAD by to dropping one of the HQs, so I'd drop the autarch. I'd also make the storm guardians a single 20 man blob, in that case. That gives you tons of points to spend on some fusion guns and weapons for the wraithlords if you like. The reason I normally keep the wraithlords naked is it makes my opponent not register them as much of a threat. As soon as you throw some brightlances on them it immediately makes them a target. That way your opponent targets the avatar and you can buff him with your farseer and warlock, if you roll something good on the runes of battle table.

[Ibushi]

That is a good point re: the avatar and wraithlords, I will look out for that on the tabletop.

The WL seems most worth it at his stock price, maybe plus sword, as adding on the guns is really expensive, but flamers and fists do most of the work anyway.

Cheers
Ibushi

[Ibushi]

OK guys the list I am actually going to take to a tournament in two weeks is looking like this:

Guardian Stormhost:
Farseer - jetbike
3x 8 Storm Guardians - 2x fusion, 2x PW
Vyper - BL
War Walker - BL
Shadow Weaver

Avatar
Jain Zar
Wraithknight - glaive

Eldar CAD
Farseer - jetbike
2x 3 jetbikes
Void Shield Generator

Harlequin Cast of Players
Shadowseer - ML2
Death Jester
Troupe Leader - caress
9 Harlequins - 5 caresses

One other option is to switch out the Wraithknight for a Hemlock+Spiritseer+some upgrades on the harlies.

Looking forward to rocking the Stormhost! If I can win more than one game, my friend is going to help me build a display base for the space ninjas!

Cheers
Ibushi

[Cavalier]

Oof! What a list! I give you props for running it but good luck, you're gonna need it! I wouldn't drop the WK, but psychic shriek for AA, as well as the heavy d-scythes for acquiring destroyer-weapons would plug some holes very nicely. I do think this list will be fun as hell to run, despite the difficulty and will look great as well. I've always dreamed of running 2 gigantic 20 man squads of Stormies led by the Avatar.

BTW who is Jain-Zarr running with?

[Ibushi]

Cheers! "Running" is the right word -- doubt there will be much else from my side going on bahaha.

JZ can run with a storm squad if there are squashy enemies to kill, or for maximum combat benefit and resilience she would go in the harliestar.

Likewise the farseers could attach to tank and cast powers, or split off to double or triple up on shriek in a given turn.

Hoping to get in at least one practice game where I don't get tabled turn 1.

[dog_of_war]

Only thing I might try differently is replaced Jain Zar with Karandras to take advantage of his stealth that he would give to a unit and the ability to outflank. Attach him to stormies to be a bodyguard fir the avatar or better yet pair him up with your harlies - pure bananas!

[Lyonic]

Wtaithlords you say? Well if you are even thinking about using the avatar you MUST give them swords. It gives them MAX str on the charge. Wlords high toughness is awsome but they lack any real tanking apart from that. Their MEQ save is easily bypassed and the lack of a feel no pain or invul hurts. This unit should be changed so u can include 3 wlords in a unit, with their bonus being they get FnP or some stuff. Remember these guys can still get instagibbed vs force weapons!

[davethemadorc]

even with the newdardex - not sure how 5 cheap banshees can chop five marines with relative ease - the might ! - but then again they might not !

im with the boss - id like to see some evidence !

i used to run a similar theme of banshees and quins back in the days of 5th and it always suffered from  selective firepower -  and that was before they could all fly around in venoms !

the other idea of three wraithlord bodyguarding an aviator - again sounds great in theory - but what a point sink with no IV saves - not sure its going to work against lots of armies - dont think ORCZEZ would like it though

[Irisado]

Three Wraithlords combined with the Avatar is actually pretty difficult to stop.  Yes, mass heavy weapons fire is likely to bring some of them down before they make it into combat, but it's very difficult to stop some of them from reaching close combat.  I think it would still be effective against a wide enough range of armies to be considered a viable close assault option for the Eldar.

[Ibushi]

I had a practice game this week with the space ninjas (storm host+harlequins), and the stormhost is just such garbage haha. In my head they could run around with fusion guns capping objectives, but without even having obsec it is just a waste of time. If they could take power axes instead of swords, they would be a lot better too.

For the guardian or stormhost formations to be actually interesting, I think the support unit upgrades need to be included, along with warlocks for the guardian units, and all the units would need obsec (or at least the troops). So that would be 3x guardian squads including guns and warlocks, 1x vyper squad with free gun upgrades and obsec, 1x artillery with free warlock (but not free d-cannons) and obsec, and 1x war walker squad with free guns and obsec. That would make it actually interesting, but the stormhost would still be terrible haha.

OK, so the tournament organizer (who i happened to be playing my practice games against) must have felt bad, as he let me make last minute list changes before this weekend, which is very nice. I realized the challenge for this event is not to make assault GUARDIANS work to win a game, but to make assault ELDAR work -- bring on the aspect warriors!

New list I am going to try out today, and will not likely get to change again before tomorrow hah:

Farseer - jetbike, WARLORD
Farseer - jetbike

5 Rangers
3 Scatbikes
3 Scatbikes
3 Jetbikes

6 Hawks

Wraithknight - 2 cannons, 1 laser

Bunker - escape hatch, void shield

Aspect Host;
8 Scorpions + Exarch - claw
8 Warp Spiders + Exarch
4 Shining Spears + Exarch - lance

Cast of Players
Shadowseer - ML2, Mask of Secrets
Death Jester
Troupe Leader - caress
9 Players - 5 caress

1850!

The bunker delivery system for the harlequins is really effective, so the problem was everything else. In this case, the WK can hide behind the bunker or stand on top of it for void shield protection. Likewise rangers hunker down, with both Farseers attached for shrouding. Scorpions get up in the opponent's face as much as possible, with stealth+shrouding to protect them for T1. The Shining Spears can hopefully hide in a corner somewhere, along with the jetbikes. Warp Spiders and Hawks of course can deep strike, or deploy out of LOS.

Once the Eldar decide to make a play for the enemy, major assault threats are the knight, scorpions, harlies, and shining spears with attached farseers, plus WS5 warp spiders haha, and swooping hawks going after armour.

Should be really interesting! But will it be enough?

Both Farseers are going to fish for Invisibility, hopefully getting shrouding at least, plus shriek. If the first one gets invisibility, I might try fishing for Fortune as well, not sure. The problem with Fate is that only Fortune and Doom are that attractive here, but they are so attractive!

Will let you know how it goes..