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Archived Projects/Boards => Fantasy General and Army Lists => Topic started by: Jester on January 27, 2004, 08:19:23 PM
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Well, those of you reading this thread looking for a new army will find that everyone on this board is pretty set in their ways, me, more than some, but you'll find that the advice you get will be the same as the advice we've given the 100's of players that came before you.
So to save US time, (and to have an excuse to yell at you for not reading our hard earned works) we've managed to put together a general help Outline. You should of already read the Warhammer Picking an Army Thread, and have a fairly general idea about the race of the army you want to play. You should be considering army types. Read this thread, and take what we know, and add it to designing of your army... this doesn't mean don't post your army lists... but it means, for example, don't ask why high elf mixed armies don't work, because trust me, THAT peice of advice is in this thread, and we'll all just tell you to go read the thread.
Saying that, the picking an army thread had a couple major contributors, of course myself, Mic, Toad, Vice, and a few others, and i have faith in the stregnth of the community in pulling together and producing some quality advice for you again on an even wider range of topics and races.
As there has been almost a year between the two help threads, if one of the newer armies is not included in the previous thread, but is included here, feel free to ask. Also, it should be noted at the time of this thread, the Brettonians had just been released, and as result armies that come after will not be here yet, and the brettonians themselves you'll probably see some very general but also some conflicting advice, as alot of the advice about them at this point is mostly theoritcal.
Saying that, Enjoy the thread, Welcome to the game, and wecome to the community, we're happy to have you, and it's great group of people, so i'm sure you'll have fun on the forum!
(to any who read before i post again, yes, its a work in process)
High Elfs.
Dark Elves
Tomb Kings
Tomb Kings 2
Tomb Kings
Dwarfs
Beasts of Chaos
Hordes of Chaos
Chaos Gods
Empire
Orcs and Goblins
An Addition to Orcs & Goblins
Lizardmen
Wood Elves
Lizardmen
Vampire Counts
Bretonnia part
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EDIT by miclantecuthli:
To make it easier to find what it is you want:
EDIT by Vice:
Added old posts from the original "Picking an army" thread, and moved the original. Added more links
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Ah First army up: High Elfs.
The first thing to note is you are either an elf player or you are not. The defensive high elf list is not the type of list you will generaly find elf players using. while it is arguably the most powerful of the high elf lists, if you want a quick, highly mobile, striking from teh shadows, flanking quickly ect elf army, this is not the army for you. This army plays like a human army in many ways, however is incredably powerful
anyway, there are three basic types of high elf armies, Offensive, Defensive, and Mixed. There are two basic types of High Elf troops, infantry and calvery (monsters are fairly restricted) or "fast" and "slow". (note: the slow are still pretty fast).
Offensive armies should have ALL fast items in the list. This includes dragons, eagles, shadow warriors, all forms of calvery, chariots. this is the gallop across the field of battle, and try and slay your opponent... it's a very popular type of army. Kind of like a bastardized human army again, i think you'll see this type of army decrease in popularity now that there are 3 or 4 armies that just seem to do it better, such as DE armies that are monster heavy, Brettonian armies, Empire Knight based armies, and to a lesser extend chaos armies. The biggest type of advice i can give to you for this army is DO NOT TAKE DRAGON PRINCES. they are a waste of points, their command costs to much, and teh extra movement is NOT worth the points. its just the way it is. ONLY take them for flavour, otherwise silverhelms are ALYWAS ALWAYS ALWAYS the better choice. The only exception to this rule is vs undead, because of their banner options, and only if your changing your army to face your oppoent all the time, which you shouldn't be doing.
Mixed armies are the typical elf armies. I don't like them, and here is why i don't like them. High elfs do not play like ELFS, they play like low number elite humans. I don't know why, they just do. mixed armies are the typical elf armies... however given the incredably low numbers and relative ineffeciancy of them in small doses what tends to happen is the following
you attack, you get killed, he comes forth and kills the other half of your army. Cuz of your small numbers, and that 50% of your army is so traveling foward, 50% of your army (the size of 25% of his army) hits 100% of his army adn gets decimated completely. his then remaining 80% of of his army walks forward and wipes you out. it is a poor stratagy for this reason. Also, as you'll read consitantly, there are theories of dominating phases that I and other players share, and this army does not do anything exellently... instead it does everything medicore. This is not good for elfs, if you want an general elf army, play dark elfs of wood elfs.
Lastly comes the defensive army. This army deals with teh "slow" troops, spears, archers, RBTS, infantry blocks, shadow warriors....
do NOT take seagaurd, much like DP they should be only taken for flavour, they are over priced and you do not get your investment back in points for them. The biggest defining factors of this army, unlike the calvery army (which dominates movement and Close combat) are Magic, and shooting. you learning shooting orders and tatics vs certain armies you will shot them to ribbons before the get to you. it is an incredably effective way of playing high elfs, using the shadowwarriors to slow the enemy/hunt warmachines, the RBT's, archmage and mages, and archers to decimate your oppoent, and then screaning a high powered infantry unit (usualy swordmasters) behind some spearelfs which will all fight whatever is left. Take high magic on 2 mages, take heavens on the other as a general rule.
These are the high elf army types, and what is generaly the basic make up of each. Tatics will be found in the tatic section (when i put it up... so look for it in 2005 at this rate! haha) or waaaaaaaaay later in the thread once every army is convered.
WOOOO. Onto the next army!
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actually i write it all fresh, as do all the vets....
we copy and paste some,, but usualy once we're done most of it already... =)
please try and keep general comments off the thread tho, it makes for longer reading for the new players. msg people privatly, or make a "comments about help topic' thread. =)
anyway, as i was horribly outdone by my Dark elf friend there with his unit run down, i'll do a quick one of my own, even if it isn't quite as in depth..
Lord: Dragon is good in offensive... as is griffin..otherwise. . meh. Offensive lists are really the only time you want to take a lord fighting class... the archmage is damn good in defensive lists.. for mixed lists... well it's to taste i'm afraid. Magic items that are always notable are the Bow of the sea farere, Reaver bow, Blade of sea gold, Vembraces of defense, the phenoix, book of hoeth, and annurilain crystal... they're popular AND fastatic.
go figure.
Hero class: gotta say, big fan of the mages here myself, give em a powerstone or a dispell scroll, and ride the wave there boss. Hero with reaver bow at this level if AMAZING with his 3 str 5 shots he becomes a nice little mini RBT, who can pick off flyers and other annoying things.
Core: Eveyrthing is good but the loth. gaurd. don't take them. can't go wrong with spearelves and archers.. well defensivly anyway.... Silverhelms in the offensive list... i'm going to stop spelling that out, cuz i'm assuming that you're all bright enough to figure what goes in what list..
Special: Again, all strong choices, though the swordmasters are the nicest of the choices. Dragon princes are the notable expception, being a weak choice for the reasons mentioned above, and shouldn't really be taken...Shadowwarri ors on the other hand are the exception in that they should ALWAYS be taken in every list, are amazing and frankly just damn good.
Rare choices: Okay< PG should NEVER be taken in a list under 4k... it's not fluffy, and they're not that good. LG are nice if you have the points lying around to make them a special choice with the virtue, cuz otherwise, what you want are either RBT's, or Eagles, (d and O respectivly) in a mixed list this may be a less of a concern, but in either the offenisve or defenisve lists, one is defenatly better than the other and BOTH are amazing, i ALWAYS suggest 4 of one or the other.
damn vice and his more unorthadox army haha.. i'm not covering tatics because it is very list dependant and army dependant... over time i'll probably gather enough up to cut and paste a Tatic's post. but right now all i have is tatics vs empire written out and you can go look for it. =_) its in a thread called high elfs "now with list"
(consider it my weak version of intregue at court)
That is the biggest thing here btw when playing High elfs.. remember.... you DO NOT GET TO PICK YOUR GENERAL. as a result, anythign that boosts LD isn't that great...and anything that is general specific isnt' that great either... cuz it throws a wrench into a very stable army.
This army is stable, dependable, it is NOT for risk takers, You need a plan, you need to stick with it. there is no Risk in playing high elfs, you either play them right, and you win MOST of the time, or you play them wrong, and you lose MOST of the time. they are designed that way for a reason, the only iffy battles is agasint a good DE player, again, designed that way for a reason.....
you'll have your hard battles, but a good HE general can littelry take all comers without changing his or her list, and it really is simply the accumilation of skill that makes this army great, in list selection, -playing, and most importantly, sportsmanship.
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Dark Elves
As Jester touched on in his high elf breakdown, the first step is to decide whether you are an elf player or not. Having high LD and WS is nice and peachy, but being outnumbered, outstrengthed, and generally being a wimp has it's drawbacks as well. Go figure. Dark Elves are different from other armies in that they are bad at nothing, and great at nothing either. Dark Elves are not a conservative army. Wanna play it safe? go with dwarves. Willing to take risks? Dark Elves are for you.
Another thing to take into account, is that unlike High Elves (and to some extent wood elves), Dark Elves are not a cheap army. Even with a warrior heavy army, the average 2k list will cost about 100 dollars more than a high elven army would. Our only plastic unit are our warriors, and the average 2k army will have at most 2 units of them.
Next up Patience. Go into flying rages over the slightest thing? Have an Obssessive Compulsive thing going on? All or nothing? Hey, you and me have alot in common. But if you can't take the occasional loss, or are not willing to, then Dark Elves are most definately not for you.
Now onto the good stuff ;)
As I said before, unlike other armies, Dark Elves are great at nothing, but bad at little. We can outshoot most armies, our magic is ridiculously powerful (Although ridiculously overpriced, making it, IMO, not worth it.), Our Cavalry is possibly second or third meanest in the game, our fast cav is argueable only second to Glade Riders.
Our basic infantry are fairly cheap (by elf standards), our magic items are top notch, we have some of the funnest special characters in the game, and a cool name to boot. What's the problem? We're a bunch of pansies who generally have to kill things that are twice our size, and there are twice as many of.
It'll be tough, but learning Dark Elves is like going through puberty. It'll be long, hard, (s***, that sounds like more of of a metaphor than a description), and tough to get through, but once you do, you'll be glad it's over with.
When your getting your DE army, the first thing you should think is how big of games you want to play. A healthy, fun game size is 2000. You'll be able to find more people that play it, and it won't cost you an arm, a leg, and a loan to get it. w00t!
Your next step should be figuring out what heros you want. The biggest choice people make, in my opinion, is if they want magic or not. Dark Elf magic is very expensive, but granted, extremely powerful if you get lucky on your spell rolls. Black Horror can literally destroy a small unit, Chillwind can save your ass from that warp lightning cannon shot that would fry your knights, and a successful dominion can [I swear too much] up an enemies entire battle plan.
The downside? For magical dominance, it will cost you nearly 300 points. Even if you just want basic protection, it can cost about 110-130 points, and that's alot.
Should you choose the magical path, there are 3 common routes.
1) A Level 4 High Sorceress (OPTIONAL: backed up by a Level 2 Sorc)
2) 2 Level Sorcs
3) 1 lvl 1 sorc w/ 2 dispell scrolls (or a dispell scroll and seal of ghrond)
There are several others, and in a magic leniant group, a lone Sorceress with Seal of Ghrond and Tome of Furion can be all that is needed.
The other path, is of course, taking no magic. Generally when this is done at 2k, a highborn, backed up by either an assassin, a noble(s), a beastmaster, or a mix. Highborns are not nescissary, but are usually taken due to thier ability to ride a large beast, and wear more magical items. Common items given to highborns include the Gauntlet of Power, Crimson Death, Blood Armour, Armour of Darkness (or whatever it's called), seal of ghrond, Crown of Black Iron, and Mystic Shield of light. My most frequent choice is a Highborn with HA, SDC, Mystic Shield of Light, and Gauntlet of Power.
Once your heros have been selected, it's time to move onto core. This is where price starts becoming an issue. Most hero choices can be purchased fairly cheapy. For example, should you choose to have an army consiting of 2 nobles, all that needs be purchased is a blister of Black Guard, or Executioners. Want a BSB? Get a Black Guard Command. There are so many options, it is fairly cheap. But core, is where you begin to start actually buying the large units. A box of 16 warriors costs roughly 35.00 USD. Unfortunately, 16 is not a good number for warriors, as it is easy to cause them panic. One of the most important things to remember is to atleast try and take most of your units in multiples of 4 + 1. It will not be tidy, but remember, a unit of 17 needs just as many models to die as one of 20, and 17 is alot cheaper.
For core you are presented with 3 different options. Warriors, Corsairs, and Dark Riders. Warriors will typically form the basis of your army, being the cheapest in both game and real life terms. Before the revision, you were essentially a fool to take them, but now, costing a mere 7 points per model, Dark Elves are one of the best deals in the whole army. How you equip them is up to you. Repeating Crossbows (or RXBs) allow Dark Elves some of the best shooting in the game for the price you pay. (tip: always use double shot. You are statistically more likely to make two shots on 4s than 1 at 3). For an even more versitile unit, giving and RXB unit shields can prodive you with a heavily armoured (albeit expensive) core for your army. Taking shields on your spearmen is generally a waste. It would only be handy on the first turn, when you have not moved, in which case you should be able to take out atleast 2-3 enemies. For the price you pay, it's not worth it on spearmen.
If you're not that big on the idea of spearmen, Corsairs also make for a healthy core choice. having a 4+ shooting save, and a 5+ CC save, they are not chumps, and being able to dish out 2 attacks each, they can tear through orcs and skaven like they weren't even there. The problem is, at 10 bucks a hit, you're looking at a minimum 100 point investment. If you want both warrriors and corsairs, getting a unit of 13-15 corsairs acting as shock troops for your warrior block is also a good idea.
Dark Riders are argueably the Dark Elves' best unit. Being able to move 18" a turn, shoot a minimum of 10 shots in any direction, and charge on S4 is nothing to scoff at. While expensive, most DE players will swear by them. I generally try to include atleast one unit of them per army. I also never try to take a unit larger than 5. Anything more make them far less manueverable, and obviously, movement is the DR's biggest advantage. Another deathtrap I see taken too often is giving them a standard bearer. While it seems nice and dandy to have +1 CR each turn, when you remember that another of DR's biggest strengths is being able to run away no problem, and that they have no staying power, you're basically paying 18 points so your buddy can get a free 100 VPs. Champions I also tend to avoid. For the price you pay, that extra attack is just not worth it. Musicians are also a nice addition for DR units. Running in at a mere 7 points, that free reform is handy to say the least. DR's main uses include Warmachine Hunting, Watching Flanks, charging flanks, making frenzied units even more pissed, and taking out mages that have stupidly left out in the open. They are good at delaying units and halting flyers as well. They are without a doubt the most versitile unit in the list, and a common favorite.
After choosing 3 core units, now is the time to decide. Do you want more core units, to get a nice strong back, or the minimum core, and plenty of fancy units. I usually go with the latter ;)
When it comes to special units, I'm a sucker. Chances are, if I can, I will take the bare minimum of core, and then a ridiculous amount on special and heros. It's not a good idea, but I'll be honest, it makes for one hell of alot more interesting of a game. Most of the DE special choices are best used as shock troops (meaning they are supporting another unit. For example
X
XXXXX O
XXXXX OOOOOO
XXXXX OOOOOO
XXXXX
Here the X unit is the bulk unit. They take the charges, and they lead the charges. Once the enemy charges the X unit, the O unit will swoop around, catching the attacking unit in the flank. )
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Of course, they have other uses as well. Cold One Knights can make a great core for your army, shades are excellent for supporting or taking out heros and warmachines, & harpies are good for distractions.
Executioners are a good stand alone unit, or an even better shock unit. Having S5 and KB means alot, and for the price, they're a steal. The reason I advise against taking a large block of executioners is simply that they have no staying power. On the charge, you can expect to wound 2-3, and maybe take one back. If you don't break, you're [I swear too much]ed. On the other hand, if you're flanking, you have another unit there to take the brunt of the damage, and you will have the added bonuses of flanking and outnumbering. Sticking a hydra banner in a block of these can spell out annihilation for your opponent faster than they can even say it (if you're quick at rolling dice anyway)
Witch Elves are another great shock troop, but the problem is, of course, being forced to charge. While having 3 attacks that auto wound on a 6, they are probably the best unit in the game at taking large blocks of unarmoured troops out, but being forced to charge is the biggest curse of all. A clever opponent with fast cavalry can tangle a unit of these ladies up for a full game with a little bit of practice. WE are different from Execs in that they can be a good block unit, and a good shock troop. They have little staying power due to only having Light Armour, but the fact you send out 3 poisoned attacks per turn is a gigantic advantage. A larger frontage (no pun intended) of Witch Elves can be dangerous for almost any enemy.
Cold One Chariots are probably one of our toughest units. A charge from a brace of chariots is enough to break most units if you roll decently on your impact hits. These are probably some of my favorite units in the game, and just plain look cool. The problem with them of course, is that most artillery can literally blast them to high heavens. A Brace of chariots is always recomended, as even a lone chariot can mean all the difference in the world.
Cold One Knights are another great asset. Again, arguable one of the best units of it's kind (that being heavy cavalry), these guys have the best armoursave in the list, and without a doubt some of the best staying power. Thier steeds are S4, and the exceptionally high WS is always nice. Unforunately, stupidity can take quite the toll, but again, thanks to the revision, that is no longer tas big of a problem as it was before. You will most likely fail .75 turns each game with the new LD, so it's not too big of a deal anymore (unless you suck at rolling dice). Supported by a unit of DR, and even better, a Hydra Banner, these guys are just plain scary.
Shades are without a doubt tied with chariots as my favorite unit in the list. Although I hardly used them for the first year of release, I ended up taking them quite consistantly a month or two before the revision. The sheer amount of shots you can dish out is amazing for the BS you get, and a lone unit can destroy a lightly armoured unit no problem. One game I play, a mere unit of 7 took out about 4-5 of Tichihuici's Raiders, and a base and a half of lizard swarms. I highly recomend them, as they are the ultimate pest. They are not nescissary, but they make like much easier, and certainly more fun.
Harpies are a unit I've never had much luck with. Not being able to use general's leadership, and having WS3 is something I'm not used to (I play elves and undead, give me a break). Despite thier high S, and flying abilities, my luck with them has never been good. I've heard stories of a unit of 5 being able to destroy multiple units of warmachines without breaking a sweat, but more often than not, I just find mine run screaming at a warmachine crew, then running away pissing themselves. These are a unit that are 100% personal opinion. Some people love em, others hate 'em. You've got to decide which you are.
When it comes to rare, we've got some pretty sweet deals.
Black Guard are probably the best unit in the entire list when it comes to taking a charge. With a stubborn on LD 9, and rerolling a high such a high WS at S4, they are nothing to take lightly. Unforunately, they WILL cost you more than you will usually be able to afford, but what can I say? They look cool ;)
War Hydras are another great asset. They can smash most lines without thinking about it, and having one of the highest Strengths in the army, and the fact that you can shoot fire out of your mouth is always cool. I rarely use them, but when I do, I love em with every part of my body (Including my pee-pee)
Reaper Bolt Throwers (or RBTs) are often considered to be the stongest thing in the whole list. Just 2 of these can often soften up a unit so that even shades can take on the unit with general ease. Be it Knight, Dragon, or Skaven Slave, this thing can take care of it. Just remember to deploy it fairly forward.
The Cauldron of Blood is yet another unit that got thier in the revision. Before they were fairly useless, having almost no range for thier effects, and a crew that drops dead the first time they get shot at. Now with the increase in range, they are almost always worth taking (although I usually prefer a hydra or pair of RBTs. Of course, I rarely take Witch Elves), especially when Witch Elves are in the army.
Unlike High elves, Dark Elves are much more mix and match. There are different forms of lists, but generally, it's mix and match.
Other useful tips I have are much simpler.
Always taking units that are multiples of 4 + 1 is another that goes for any race. It cuts down on panic.
Never tell your opponent if you've taken an assassin (or shadowblade). It's fluffy, and makes sense. Hiding assassins in a unit of warriors is always a good idea too. Opponents will usually expect you to put them in a unit of executioners or black guard, but what are the chances of being in warriors? Or use the exact opposite logic. It depends on how cunning your opponent is. If in doubt, just make the assassin a scout (except shadowblade. I would pretty much never deploy him anywhere but in an enemy unit).
Try not to use assassins (or the same list for that matter) on a regular basis. Use assassins one out of every 5 games. Keep your opponent guessing.
Don't tailor lists. It just takes the fun out.
Don't lie, but don't give the full truth. Again, it's fluffy (minus the don't lie part). Someone asking to see your list? Give em a brief run down. An assassin in there? just "forget" to include him. Just don't lie, then you're just being a dick.
Finally, if you're going to start an army, always try and get about 500 points more than you typically plan to play. Gonna start 2k? Buy 2,500 points worth of models. That way it is easier to expand, and even better yet you get to keep things fresh, so you're not using the same list over and over.
For just more light hearted, fun suggestions;
I like to take chariots. Alot. And what better way to have a chariot themed army than 2 nobles in chariots? They won't require much fancy stuff, and they will be brutal. Giving them mundance weapons and armour is all well too. Weapon equipping is a bit of a problem though. I would never recomend taking a great weapon. You would have just as good a charge as a lance, and chariots are renowned for sucking in prolonged combat, so why add to that? Lances are great for helping break the charge (and the 3 S6 attacks don't hurt!), and can really put on the hurtin'. Halberds are more middle of the road. Though you won't be able to use a shield, you'll still add a big of consistancy to the second and third rounds of combat (if you didnt run them down!). I'm not a fan of the extra CCW. I like high S much more than more A though, ;D ;D
For 3k, always take shadowblade atleast once. He may not become your favorite hero, or even a regular, but if you play in 3k, you always have to play with him atleast once. He is without a doubt the single funnest character in the game, and for the price, he's a steal. Again though, if asked about your list just say "an assassin" if you say anything at all ;)
Mage hunters rule! I pretty much never play a game without these guys. To equip a noble as such, merely give him lifetaker, HA, SDC, and Ring of Hotek. The ring will allow for the ultimate annoyance of mages, and the lifetaker will be handy for taking out those mages, or even warmachines, all for 2 points more than a unit of DRs with RXBs and Musician! Sure it sounds like DR are the better deal, but this guy is just so fun ^_^
Scouting assassin = fun time for all
Shades = fun
Be careful with harpies. These ladies seem to be hit or miss with most people, but I admit, after 5th ed, it would be hard to live up to my expectations
Hydra Banner! this thing is always great fun. For the price you pay, you will probably never make the points back, but sticking this guy in a unit of Executioners or Cold One Knights will just make your opponents groan.
Avoid Banner Of Nagathyre! While it sounds neat to take the ultimate banner, for the price you pay, it's pretty much a ripoff. If it was 25-50 points cheaper though...
Anyway, Dark Elves are a fun army, but certainly require patience and most of all practice. As I said earlier, DE are not a conservative army, so be willing to make risks. Lot's of risks.
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Tomb Kings
Three stances
There are essentially two unmixable ways to play the Tomb Kings, and an addable “flavour” to either of the two.
The first way it to be heavily defensive, concentrating on slow counter-charging units and heavy firepower. This legion should really just stand still and kill the opponent from a distance, letting arrows and screaming skulls do most of the talking, but as the opponent approaches they should have to wade through ranks of spear-armed skeletons, and assaulted by hard-hitting counter-charging units like princes on chariots, Ushabti, scorpions and such. These armies can also boast walls of tomb swarms, which are intimidating to charge into, and get tied up in. A final piece of advice to these defensive structure is counter-defence. These are troops made to take out whatever could ruin your plan to stave the opponent off so you can shoot him. This includes things to make your opponent march (to reach you quicker) and things to take out war machines and lone magicians dispelling your extra shots. Scorpions excel at the latter task, whereas Carrion do very well with both.
A small piece of advice; a Prince or Priest with Cloak of the Dunes can make Carrion charge on the first turn, and if you do this with a Priest; return him to your ranks afterwards, to help out, but if you run a Prince this way you can start hacking at other smaller units with your great weapon when the Carrion are in combat. This scares most opponents.
The second way to play the Tomb Kings is to be all-out offensive. Mixing infantry into this is rather painful, as they will be left behind too quickly, which is a shame. Go with one or more units of chariots (using a King makes them even more appealing), cavalry of both persuasion, and back this up with other faster units; scorpions, Carrion, even the Bone giant at times. You have to take out enemy guns, of course, and stop counter-chargers, but other than that, just play your magic right and hunt your opponent with your blazing speed. It is surprising to most opponents how fast the Tomb Kings can be when they want to. The chariots, although vulnerable to charges into terrain, are killers on open ground, and with a King among them they grow even deadlier, as he can make them regain lost wounds, add more impact-hits, terror, or a number of other goodies.
This way of playing the Tomb Kings is probably simpler to play well than the defensive way, but when it fails it fails miserably, and you are in a world of trouble.
Playing a mixed army is then doable, but not a very bright idea.
Why?
Well, if you play defensively and have some faster offensive units you will either have to hold them back (dead points) until your opponent gets close (which you don’t want in the first place) or rush out ahead, and be isolated. This is called a staggered charge, as whatever units you send out to aid them will be a lot slower, and not arrive until later.
If you play fast and offensive and have a unit of infantry (some think the Tomb guards or Ushabti are too good to leave behind) they will be straggling behind after turn one, creating another staggered charge, with your hitters rushing into the enemies as you slower infantry slog up the field, possibly getting picked on by enemy advance-troops (shades, flyers and such) and being the only targets for incoming fire. They generally aren’t worth it as they will be weakened when they reach the front, by which time your opponent will be smashed anyway.
Now, for the add-on.
As a Tomb King player you have some of the most reliable magic in the entire game, and only one real drawback to it. The drawback is that if you have few spellcasters you will have all you cast dispelled even by as few as four dispel-dice. This is just sad. However, with a Prince and a single Priest (which you must always have) you can invest a lot of points in other things. I have talked of this balance before.
With more casters, though, you can expect more magic to get through, and depend on your abilities to a greater degree. You can’t fail; you just have to burrow past your enemy’s defences. If you plan your magic right you will be able to count on a magically-aided charge when you actually need it, and so on.
So, how to maximise magic? Well, more casters, for one. A King and two Priests means four incantations per turn, which will worry some opponents, and with an added priest you are getting dangerous. Adding magical items like the Crown and the Plaques will further increase your reliable spells every turn, pressing the dispel of your opponent. The Jar is also good, but use it at the right time or waste it completely. How else to draw out Dispel-dice to let your critical magic get through? Bound items, of course. The Banner of the Undying Legion is a perfect example of how this works. If your opponent dispels it, which they can if they want to, easily enough, then they have waste effort on this as you can do the same with your casters later, or apply your charge if you need it. If he does not, favouring to save his dispel to try to stop that charge, you will have repaired your legion “free” so to speak. You can do this every turn.
The amount of magic you take will be pivotal to how well your Legion performs, depending on how you spend your other points, of course; too much points in magic – too few troops, and you fail. This is, as stated, something I have talked about before.
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DWARFS:
well what is htere to say about these very short, very harry and veyr mean little guys...
for those of you that are familar with 40K, these guys would be played like the imperial gaurd of fantasy. Now this isn't to say they have tanks and tons of troops, infact quite the opposite, there's only 1 tank in the game and they don't have it, and their troops are not weak or poorly equiped, or cheap. In fact their troops are the strongest foot troop in the game point for point, and probably the best equiped as well
so how are they played like guard you may ask? well a few things jump out. One, They have incredably long range. They can put out a type of firepower that litterly can not be matched by anyone, except Wood Elfs, and even then it's a close tie. With Rock solid basic troops that have the ability to take X-bows, well, it's hard to beat that. Infact their archers are often taken in units of 16, so if they're chaged they can re-form and fight, they are good enough to take on most infantry anyway, even without the x-bow. Without the x-bow they're the basic clan dwarf, which is nothing to sneeze at. With one of the best saves for a basic troop in the game, T4 making them hard to wound, and the fact that everyone takes them with greatweapons & shields(they're slow so always striking last anyway) giving them a str of 5, well, they can be a brutal troop to fight, and espeicialy break as they have good leadership as well.
The shooting doens't stop there though, throughuot the list you'll see a panathon of warmachines, from old school ones, such as rocklobbers or the numerous bolt throwers, to the black powder cannons, to the rare choices that include teh Organ gun and flame cannon, short range warmachines that can wipe out whole units in a single turn. In addition to this, they have the best long rifle team in the game as a core choice as well, with the ability to move and fire a rifle, thunderes can be one of the scariest units in the game.
The core has other strong choices that should be mentioned. Rangers and Miners... Miners can dig and re-advance anywhere on teh battle field, while thye're slow, (though dwarfs can ALWAYS march no matter the range of enemies), they come up ranked and ready for combat, and are armed very well. Rangers, your scouts, also are deployed in ranks, amking them very tough to beat down as well, and they also carry ranged weapons.
The special choices is where you'll find most of your rock solid infantry, the infantry that will give your opponest fits. From the unbreakable slayers, who litterly have to be killed to a man, who can tie up incredably expensive enemy units, and haul down monsters with relative ease, to the 2+ save of the Ironbreakers, who are incredably tough, strong, and skilled with their weapons, the the wise longbeards and their ability to never be phased by anything, to even the royal gaurd itself, all of these choices are incredably potenet and hard to deal with.
The other rare choice, that of the gyrocopter is unique is that it's a helacopter. This gives movement to another wise fairly slow army. In case you havn't noticed, i havn't mentioned calvery, because that is one of the dwarfs... quirks. They have none. This unit allows for some fast movement, however eats up a rare choice, and isn't that fantastic, it does add some intresting elements to the game however.
the other major dwarf quirk is that it lacks magic. yes, you heard me, this race doesnt even have the option of magic outside of an incredably expensive, unmovable unit that requires a weak lord choice... So basicaly, No. You can get magical protection, increased nubmers of ways to dispell, ect. but unlike some of the elf ranged outputs, which always include concentrated magic, dwarfs simply have their inane resistnace (whcih helps a little, though less and less in larger games) to deal with the anslaught.
This isn't that big a deal given their armour saves, but is one reason why most dwarf armies do infact have large amounts of projectile weapons, because otherwise their troops would be swallowed by magic if they coulnd't return fire.
An interesting thing about the dwarfs is that thier magic is "runic" wich means you basicaly can design your own magic weapons within certain combantations restrictions, allowing for some incredably potent heros. In addition, they have lord choices that can take even more magical items, increasing their potency yet again. A dwarf hero is something that no one wants to face on the battlefield.
The set up dwarfs is fairly uniform, packed into corners, guns bristling foward, inflicting massive damage, and massicaring what makes it through. They have an incredably good win ratio, and newbs in particular when fighting them will find them incredably hard to break. The biggest advantage they have over other defensive lists is that dwarfs have a base Toughness that is higher than everyone else, and a weapon skill that matches the elfs. This makes them incredably hard to both hit, and wound, and their armour save makes this even harder again.
The alternate lists are interesting, but really more for an advanced player, so something that i'll cover on a more person to person basis, and will not be included here. The dwarf alternate lists are VEYR challenging to play and are not recommended if you need the benifit of this article, well not at first anyway.
The models for the line are, in most people's opinions, beautiful, very nicely done, and the army is very quick to paint up with all the hair and metal. even a beginner painter, with a few quick lessions and some care (you can't just slap paint on obviously) can have a very clean looking army that looks very very nice on the battle field. I've even seen dwarf armies where the painted improves so quickly that you can litterly tell the order of the guys IN AN UNIT that he painted...with lords/heros that are (as they were painted last) above the avereage model already.
The last notacible thing about dwarfs is that they don't have monsters. when i say they don't have calveyr, i mean they don't have anything fast. if this is a HUGE concern for you, you can always recruit some Dogs of War (who will be covered much later in this thread), and so get some calvery, but this is an expensive choice that eats up a rare choice, and honestly most of the time you're better with the rare choices persented to you.
May your beard grow long, your mug grow empty, and your grudges be satisfied!
*Grumbles* Why, when i was beardling, why, advice was hardly even needed to be given, dwarfs back then were REAL dwarfs.. (get ready for a lot of that attitude... theyr'e a dying race after all, and back in the day, monsters were scarier, greenskins more vicious, beards were longer and beer was stronger!)
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Beasts of Chaos
There are three ways to use the beasts, either as a pure beast force, backup for a mortal/demon army or mainly beast with mortal/demon allies. I've only use them as a pure force, so what I say about the other two options is based on my observations of other peoples armies, not my actual game experiances.
Using a Pure beasts army with mortal/demon backup
So when you start your army, you probably want to start with heroes. Your general will either be a Wargor(in less than 2k), Doombull, Shaggoth Champion or a Beastlord. Even with the worse profile, I like the beastlord more than the Doombull or Shaggoth because of ambush, the coolest part of beastmen. With the doombull or shaggoth your army will just be a frontal assault army, something a mortal army is much better at. Use mages if you want, they're sort of hit or miss, but if you take one, take the staff of darkoth.
As I said before, the ambush rule is the best part about beastmen. The ability to have gors appear behind dwarves or other defensive armies is amazing, and will make your opponents s*** themselves. If you plan on ambushing, take the horn of the great hunt.
After choosing your heroes its best to check out your core units. Beastherds are the best choice, as the can ambush, skirmish and get rank bonuses. Taking them also allows bestigors, which are always helpful.
Bestigors-great unit, with t4 and heavy armor they should be able to take some arrow fire before getting into combat. Try to get the charge with them, as they should be able to break a unit in 1 turn(excluding undead). Some things to note about them, they cannot ambush, and only one unit can have a mark. dont ask why, but its in the book. Chariots are good on the charge, but after that they are sort of pathetic. Warhounds are only usefull for screens and increasing your ambush count.
For special choices, you have centigors, your semifast cav unit, which can win you a game or ruin your battle plan, depending on your drunken roll. Minatours, Ogres and Dragon Ogres(A rare choice) are expensive, cause fear, are fast and have a lot of attacks, and its probably best to get them great weapons. Dragon Ogres are the best, but are massivly expensive and have the worst models. I like ogres more than mintaurs as they are 5 pts cheaper and have a better armor save even though they have a lower Ld. and cant get marks. I dont like trolls, because stupidity and low Ld. are never a good mix. They are good against knight though, so if your facing brets they might be a good choice.
For rare choices, you have the Dragon Ogres(touched on above), Spawn, giants and the almighty shaggoth. Spawn are slow and even though they are ok in combat, I dont like them. Giants are fun and good in combat sometimes, but great weapon units tear him apart and its hard to avoid them when you constantly roll 'pick up and...' The shaggoth is immense and deadly, especially when marked. Use it in big games, but it will attract every RBT and cannon your enemy has.
If you want to add mortals or demons to your list, I have a couple suggestions. Use furies or screamers for taking out warmachines and causing havoc, and use knights if you want some badass cavalry, but I dont really think mortals or demons are a great addition to a beast force.
Ok, its been a while but heres some tactics-
Your main advantage is ambush. I cant say it enough. It'll turn the entire tide of the battle if its used properly. If youre going to ambush, give your general the horn of the great hunt if you want it to work at all. Foerenders in your beastherds is close to necesarry, as his better stats (mainly Ld. and S.) makes your beastherds deadly in combat.
Another one of your advantages is the raiders formation. with M.5 and skirmish, you can run circles around your opponents and hit them almost whenever you want.
Use your monsters to hit your enemy's lines along with your bestigors and chariots to hold the units in place and circle your beastherds around them and hit them in the flanks (rear if you ambush.) Remember, you cant beat chaos warriors in combat with a single unit unless yourereally lucky or if its a shaggoth.
If you want to add beasts to a mortal or demonic horde, these are my ideas but as I said above,I dont have any experiance playing them, its just what I've seen other people use.
Beastherds are good to hold flanks against fast cav, skirmishers and flyers and is good as a flanking unit. The doombull or shaggoth champion would be a good lord choice in a 3+k game to add a little more punch to your assaults. Maruader fast cav is normally better than centigors, despite the worse models. You could use bestigors as a cheaper, faster unit of warriors with great weapons, as they have a decent ws and their I doesn't matter but its all up to you.
In conclusion, if you want an armored, frontal assault army go with brets or a mortal chaos herd. If you want a quick, skirmishing combat army, Beasts might be for you.
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Hordes of Chaos, part 1
Chaos is big, too big for one or even two books. The possibilities are almost endless: there are daemonic, mortal and beast armies; some armies worship Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch or Slaanesh, some are dedicated to chaos undivided and others use a mix of units with a mark of several Gods. The possibilities are endless, but that doesn't mean that every combination or tactic will work.
Chaos is an excellent choice if you're looking for a small, fast and strong army. Some call them the Smurfs of warhammer fantasy battle: their stat line of the core units is impressive, you can make tactical mistakes without loosing the game, most armies are relatively small and they get too much attention in WD. This makes them a very good beginners army.
Playing with a chaos army = attacking, getting into combat as fast as possible. The easiest tactic is running to your opponent, charge him and break him with your superior warriors and knights. Your units are good enough to defeat most rank and file units without a flank charge and without outnumbering. Looks simple on paper and it's indeed easier to play with a chaos army than playing elves. You still need some basic tactics. Every army needs to protect its flanks. This is even more important for a chaos army. Your opponent will have more units, but your units are stronger and tougher. You have a good chance of winning if your enemy can only attack your front ranks.
Every attacking army needs enough fast units and something to destroy war machines. Chaos has one of the best cavalry unit in the game (I haven't seen the new Bretonnian book but I think that grail knights are better), their cheap cavalry options are decent too and the beasts of chaos book gives you even more options. You can use two things to take out war machines: furies and/or magic. Furies are more reliable, because most defensive armies are magic heavy too. You can make a complete cavalry army, but that?s not always a good idea. It'll be very expensive ($$) + they knights cast lots of points. You don?t have a "normal" cavalry unit: knights are elite and warhounds/marauder horsemen aren?t made to charge rank and file units. It's a good idea to have at least 2 blocks (warriors, marauders or daemons), at least one hard hitting fast unit (KNIGHTS, monsters from the BOC list) and 1 or 2 lighter cavalry units (daemonic cavalry, warhounds, marauder horsemen) in a 2000 pts army.
Chaos characters are often very expensive. Some people spend 700 or 800 pts on characters in a 2000pts army. Those characters kill a lot and it's difficult to kill them, but it's also very difficult to win your points back. Try to find a good balance between characters and units. That's general advice for every warhammer army, but many chaos players put to much points in characters.
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Hordes of Chaos, part 2
The units
Mortal characters and units:
Both a lord and an exalted sorcerer are good, but don?t take an exalted sorcerer if he?s your only wizard. A daemon prince is your third option. It?s a risk to take him. It?s possible that an isolated daemon prince will disappear in the warp. Only take him if you have lots of cavalry units.The heroes are okay, but expensive. An aspiring champion is good enough to lead a unit warriors or knights, but I prefer exalted champions for my marauder units. The extra 4 attacks are often the difference between winning or loosing the combat.
The warriors are the core of your army. They have everything: decent stats, good armour save and a mark of chaos. A unit of 16 warriors is a good start, not too expensive and strong enough to defeat most opponents. The knights are your elite cavalry. They are great and one of the few cavalry units able to win a fight in the second or third round. You can make both warriors and knights chosen. That?s not always a good idea and only worth it in bigger battles. A unit of marauders is cheap and gives you the numbers you might need in combat. One or two units can be useful, but don?t take too many marauder units. Other armies have better and cheaper units with a similar point cost. The marauder horsemen and warhounds have the same use in combat. Marauder horsemen are always better than warhounds. Take them if you can find the points. Warhounds can be useful when used to screen the knights or warriors, but they need the LD of the general. The last mortal choice is the chaos chariot. Chariots are cool and can be devastating on the charge, but a chaos chariot is too expensive IMO. It?s a better idea to take beastmen chariots. Include at least two chariots if you want them.
Daemonic characters and units:
I think that GW doesn?t like all-daemon armies. Only the daemons of slaanesh are good. The other standard units (bloodletters, plaguebearers, horrors) are too expensive for what they do. A warrior unit is cheaper and better. The biggest problem is the absence of a command group in combination with the daemonic instability. An daemonic all knorne army will be difficult to control without the non frenzied units, the daemons of nurgle don?t have the much needed fast units and the horrors will get slaughtered in close combat. Their magic is decent, but not good enough to pose a real treat.
The main use of daemonic units: take them as a special choice in a mortal army. Furies and screamers are very good to destroy war machines or to annoy enemy skirmishers/fast cavalry. You can use daemonettes or bloodletters instead of a warrior unit and nurglings are good as a screen. Plaguebearers are not a good choice (I can know it, I have a plaguebearer unit in my army, for fluff reasons).
Greater daemons are worth it in 3000pts games. They can give you victory in smaller games too, but you will almost always loose the game when they?re destroyed.
Spawn of chaos and bestial units.
Don?t take beast herds or bestigors in your army for tactical reasons. Beast herds can be used as a screen, but marauders are better in a mortal army. It?s the same for centigors: you have marauder horsemen and they?re cheaper. The only units I would include are ogres (a mortal unit if you look at their background), minotaurs (not very fluffy) or dragon ogres (too expensive IMO). Their staying power is better than the staying power of hounds or horsemen and they?re cheaper than knights: an decent unit on the flanks. Spawn aren?t bad, they?re not impressive but add something chaotic to your army.
Hordes of Chaos, part 3
Gods and magic
My favourite lore for a chaos sorcerer is the lore of shadow. ?Unseen lurker? and ?pelt of midnight? are very good spells when cast on one of your elite units. ?Shades of death? is good too. The 3 lores of chaos aren?t super. The lore of Nurgle and the lore of Tzeentch are average. The lore of Slaanesh is better. It isn?t very destructive, but subtle instead.
Using an army dedicated to Nurgle or Slaanesh won?t affect your tactics very much. It can be very interesting to outnumber your opponent when using a nurgle army, but taking big warrior units is too expensive. Tzeentch and Khorne are a different story.
Khorne: very powerful in close combat, but frenzied. Their big advantage is also their biggest drawback. You need enough non frenzied units to protect the frenzied units from flyers/fast cavalry/detachments/? A Khorne army that can charge the units it want to charge will win the game. Another problem is the lack of magic, but that shouldn?t be a problem, you have enough dispel dice.
Tzeentch: your characters are super characters. You?ll have lots and lots of power dice. Be careful with your characters, they?re very expensive and will give the opponent many victory points.
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Ah hell, i'll do empire right now...
1st thing to notice when you take empire si that you excell at nothing and you dont' really have many "deals" in your army, as in underpriced units. however, in tandem, your army will work very very well together.
So lets run down your options here.
Lords: Well this is the thing, Elector counts are probably the best lords to point ratio in the game, not only will you allow a state banner into your core, but you'll also get a fairl cheap, yet fairly powerful lord. He's personaly ALWAYS my favourite choice, though if your going for a knight ortiented or magic oriented list, even a warmachine list, he may not be the aboslutly best choice for you. personaly, i think he's tops, and i'll always take him, i just find him way to versitle to not take, and i like being able to take the griffon banner in a unit w/ greatswords as my other big block, allowing me for basicaly 2 stubbron core units, which also will make up the core of my army. If you put a BSB in you basicaly just score an extra banner wooT!
mage Lord. VERY VERY averaege lord for magic. Only really good if your playing a list that demands it (Riekland)or a very very strong magical army, in which case, again it's probably Riekland.
Knight Lord: an exellent lord choice, but again, the elector count is just more versitile for what he does, and is better at it. I'd find it hard to justify taking this huge point sink unless i was playing an army with at least 3-4 units of knights in it, which while isn't too uncommon, isn't my empire play style of choice.
and as a hero choice, the engineer, always take him with a long rifle. if your playing Nuln a couple of these guys with long rifles can be a pain in the a$$, as they can pick out characters and snipe them from a very long distance. You'll need a barage of 6's to hit and wound, but frankly it's a VERY cheap points investement, especialy as they save your warmachiens a little as well.
never take priests outside of an Ulric list
With empire my general advice is keep your magic items pretty simple. Swords of Might, some magic armour, maybe a talisman or two, but you get the idea. Nothing real fancy. Generaly i won't even use the 100 pt max on a lord. usualy i find it tough to get over 60. Dispells and powerstones are KEY if you want to get any spells through and if you want to hold a line. most empire lists are fairly defensive, so i can't say this enough, scroll cadies and a couple stones are REAL REALY key, Fire, Heavens and Light are the only 3 lores worth taking, and fire and heavens are my general choices.
A cute trick is the "Scroll caddy" that isnt' a scroll cady. put him in the front line of a unit that you think will be charged by something nasty, say a vamp lord. Then take the Van Horstrums' Spectrum and change stats with the guy. the proceded to beat his monstrosity down w/ your lvl 1 mage. =)
Core:
Basicaly you have 2 major choices for your parent units. Oh, i should also mention ALAWAYS TAKE DETACHMENTS... they're what makes an empire army scary. Empire is an ARMY not a UNIT. you can NOT NOT NOT uber unit an empire army, the empire stands together or falls together. (- perhaps the cheese tank.. more on that later) your two major choices are A) Swordmen, possibly the best points/ability empire troop, or spearmen. Spearmen are alright. make sure your blocks are big, try and get a griffon banner in there to make them stubbron. better for defensive lists... Swordmen give you a tad more flexability but can't fight in two ranks, so you know. your call. Swordmen have a better save though.
Detachments should generaly be Halberdies for their added str, very useful against low save armies, such as Chaos and brettonians, and handgunners. I cna't say enough good things about handgunners, they're VERY Cheap, and sure you need a mess of them to do anything, but thye're also core, and with that many shots coupled with a lot of warmachines, you can crank out a lot of damage
As far as the crap militia are concerend, free company arne't bad, and make okay detachments with thier extra attack, i don't really like them myself, but i'm not a big militia fan. never upgrade them with anything, no one will target htema nyway. Always take a unit of archers, upgraded to huntsmen so you have some scouts tho, that's just good common sense.
as far as knights go, everyone takes a unit, and a mixed list isn't that bad for this army, just make sure you use them smart. they're for coutner charges, don't just go galavanting away unless your playing an all knight list
also, don't have knights of the innner circle in a non all knight list, it's not fluffy, it's expensive, not voerly good and i can't say enoughb ad things about it.
Special choices:
Cannons, Morters, pistoliers oh my!~
Pistoliers: some of teh best light calvery in the game, nice models, and a real highlight to any empire list, I suggest everyone take them. if you get them behind the guy, espeicaly if you have a some pistol upgrades, they can be a pain to tkae pistol shots in the back every turn...
cannons and morters: personaly i like 1 cannon, 1 morter and 1 to choice. but i like warmcachines... my empire list has 5 in it!
knights of the white wolf are alright, though i don't like fielding them much, mostly due to fluff reasons, in a bigger game i'll take some, but in a small game i just don't like that they're always there... they're a heavy point sink, and yea, if you upgrade them to inner circle they're real good, but if you read the book.. you should shon't have a unit of innerciricle white wolf knights in 2k game.. 4k okay. really nice models though!
and Rare choices:
Helblaster: this bad boy can hold a whole table SIDE byhimself, not to mention destroy whole stratagies. EVEYRONE fears the helblaster. This warmachine can litterly destory an entire FULLLY armed, HEAVY infantry unit who hasn't taken any casulaties. of course, it could just blow up too.
Meh.
Great machine tho, i take 2 in my list. Ptus the fear of well... hel... in them =)
Flagelletes, dont' like em, they're just a sand trap unit (you get them stuck in with the most expensive thign teh other guy has, and that unit won't move all game) i'm not a big sand trap player, but if you like that style of play, they're really annoying, and with theif flails even kill stuff occasionaly on the first round of combat. i'd take a helblaster instead
DOW... well yeah, that's another thread, read about their army later, you can take one of their regiments as a rare choice....... some are good, some are bad, but that's another thread... empire part 2 later
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Theming a Fantasy Army:
Well we have all (or most) read threads and articles on how to theme 40k armies but I wanted to introduce a article on how to theme fantasy armies. So here it is.
Well Fantasy is one of the harder type of genres to theme. First they rarely make Fantasy movies, yet they do make alot of fantasy books. Also GW has done a great job of bloodlining/provinsising/citying all the great armies. And some of the not so great ones so your armies are easy to theme. (Wow did I just say GW did a great job of somthing...)
Now with the new creation of the huge gigantic-big-book-o-bitz that GW came out with it is easy to find stuff that will really make your army stand out from other armies. (Whether it has 2 dragons in 3K or has a specific scar on its back representing it is from the XXXXXX provinence.) Next lets take a look at diffrent sources that you can get ideas from.
Here are some sources I will also include examples.
Movies: The night of the Living dead I, II, III , Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers and Lord of the Rings: Return of the king. The Last Samuri and that is all for now if you would like to add any PM ME.
Books: Sabriel, Lord of the Rings, Pawn of Prophecy, Liriel, Abhorsen, the Warhammer book series (of course). IF YOU HAVE ANY TO ADD PM ME! ST. Bathory added Owlflight, Owlsight, Owlknight, Exile's Honor, Sword of Truth series, Dragonlance series, Soveriegn stone series. Your Army book.
Incorporating this into your army
Now you have read a book that sounds good, or somthing of the type you will start to wonder, "How do I apply this?" Well the #1 thing I would do is LOOK THROUGH YOUR BITZ BOX AND THE BITZ CATALOG. Before you start to convert and paint remember to write some fluff. If you write some fluff before your army it will get all the odd changes that tend to happen when you write your own fluff for your army, OUT OF THE WAY. This can be very useful.
If you find the way you chose of converting is too hard or too expensive don't give up. Go back through the process and figure out a way for things to be made cheeper and more efficient. It will be worth it in the end.
Now I am off to do some stuff I will add on shortly!
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BY: Farseer Ulthrion
Hello all,
On advice of Rasmus, I will copy a post of mine here. It's a reply to someone asking what to get when starting a new Orcs and Goblins army:
Orcs and Goblins...Good choice mate!
Anyways, First of all you need the army book (of course).
Also, Do you have the fantasy start set, or just the rulebook?
I'll assume that you don't have it:
First, you should get your 2 core choices. As far as I remember an Orc box has 19 models in it. In any case, try to get 2 units of 24 (the 25th space will be taken by a character, or another Orc if you have the models). This gives you a solid 50-Orc basis to get your army around, in addition to filling the required 2 core choices.
Depending on what you face, I would go for a rock lobber (against infantry), or 2 bolt throwers (against cavalry), or maybe even both if you favour artillery.
Next I would get a unit of 20 night goblins with a musician. The rest of the command group can stay at home as they are an expendable unit, and the standard bearer can possibly give your opponent 100 VP's which is not good.
If you want fanatics, go ahead. It's not needed, but I would go for a second (similar) unit of night goblins before adding fanatics, as this forces your opponent to guess where the fanatics may be.
As a starting character, I would go for an Orc Big Boss with great weapon (and Drog's Dead 'Ard Armour). This is possibly the best combination you can give to an Orc Big Boss. As for the first shaman, take any you want (I would suggest taking one from a type of Orcs/Goblins that you field, it looks much better). Just don't take the savage orc shaman, as getting your shaman involved in a combat you don't want him in is generally a very bad idea.
If you get all that, you'll have a potent infantry/swarm army, but you still lack some real punch. Black Orcs for the punch (and the animosity-prevention) if you like to field lots of infantry, or Boar Boyz (savage or normal, depending on taste) if you want some speed in the army.
Once you start expanding to 1500 points, and eventually 2000 you should get a box of wolf riders. 1 box gives you 10 wolf riders, which, armed with shields/spears, musician, boss are great at hunting vehicles, setting up traps, getting flank charges etc. Wolf Riders are probably the best supporting unit you have at your disposal, and I wouldn't leave home without them. Also, don't give them light armour, as you'll appreciate the fast cavalry special rule much more once you get the hang of it.
Also, a giant is pretty good, and snotlings are definately not to be underestimated. Depending on what your opponent plays, the Giant is good against almost everything, but he'll die real quick if your facing lots of artillery (especially against dwarves and empire). Snotlings, on the other hand, can stop almost everything in their tracks, as long as it doesn't have an insane amount of attack. Naturally, they are great cavalry stoppers, and perfectly for protecting a flank against silver helms and the like. One mistake you should never make with snotlings is to sue them as a support unit to ty someone down, and them hit them with an elite unit. Your opponent will get a good combat result against the snotlings, and things might just go very very bad. Once the snotlings are in combat, leave them alone.
In short:
1) get a good basis of Orc Boyz. Units should come in 25 even in smaller battles.
2) get artillery/magic. Boyz alone don't cut it if your opponent can soften them up by removing their rank bonus.
3) get expandable units: Night goblins are great for their threat of fantaics, even when they don't have them. Also, wolf riders are expendable, and they are great on the field once you get the hang of them.
4) get punching power: Once you have the bsis above, you can add the real devestating units like black orcs, big 'Uns, and boar boyz. Chariots are also a great choice, especially wolf chariots.
5) get the fun stuff: Giants, snotlings, doom divers depending on what you want/need.
Well, the first three points are highly reccomended, and the other two are just there as a general guideline. Remember, no matter how strong and appealing the strong stuff may be, you are playing Orcs and Goblins, and horde tactics really work well for them making the normal Orc Boyz a vital part of the army.
This doesn't mean that you shouldn't get a unit of black orcs early on, I just want to warn you against laoding up on them .
Good luck, may Gork and Mork be with you!
Farseer Ulthrion
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BY: Feinstar
As if Lizardmen don't have rocking cavalry!
We're talking Sauruses on Cold ones with Spears!
Stupidity don't mean too much when Ld8 on 3 dice picking lowest...
That's 2 attacks at S5, S4 after charge + another attack @ S4 per turn per model, T4, and 3+ saves. That's rock hard. That's like a Blood Angel Assault squad charging. Admittedly, they're slow, but when you put a character on one of these things...
Scar veterans will go to 2+ saves, S5 going to 6 on the charge, a mark could give you an extra attack making around 4 - 5 attacks, give him a great weapon and holy cow, virtually nothing will stand that.
Then imagine the Carnosaur, if we're looking at cavalry types, it almost fits - M7, he'll be alongside the cold ones.
The Oldblood is looking at 2+ saves and 150 points of magic items, and some of the best you can get in the game mind you, including marks, and lots of S5 attacks, before you factor the spear in. Then throw in the Carnosaurs attacks, as well as its frenzy, and the fact it does D3 damage to other monstrous creatures...
In straight fights, lizardmen could conceivably beat anyone, (even if their Initiative is a weakness against the really tough and hard hitting opponents like Chaos or High Elf elites). They have low numbers though, and they aren't very fast, and they don't have artillery, which is their weakness. But to make up for this, they can throw up skink screens that not only can skirmish but also scout, in CORE choice slots, giving you not only respite from most enemy guns while closing, but also giving you the capacity to restrict your enemy's movement, deny enemy flanks, and trap him into giving you the charge.
And that's before you throw the Slaan into the equation.
Second and Third Generation Slaan Own the magic phase, as they should. In addition to the fact that they can fly 10 inches a turn, or make their guard stubborn in close combat, or use skink shamans as telepathic conduits for their spells's line of sight, they can take 150 points of devestatingly powerful arcane items, outclassing the High Elven Archmages (their closest competitor) considerably.
They can be beaten, or course, often by decimating the skinks with either shooting or combat, (after all they are very low Toughness) and then picking your fights by outmanuvering them. (this can be tricky if the opponent uses his skinks cleverly, and/or if there is a lot of terrain) Furthermore, they are likely to be outnumbered, especially if they take all their cool rock hard units, and that may give competitors an advantage in combat, providing outnumbering/rank bonuses, flank charges and attrition in shooting.
I hope that my purely theoretical speech is close to reality. If I wanted purely to win, I'd be collecting Lizardmen. However, I realised that my heart is with the likes of Feanor, Finrod, Galadriel and Elendil, so the High elves, although they may be beaten far more easily, to my mind, are the only choice.
In the sense of feel, you can like Lizardmen for their uniqueness to the Warhammer fantasy world, the rich Mayan theme making them spectacular and their raw and savage looks adding a whole new brutal nobility to fantasy armies, or you can dislike them for their seeming lack of coherence in classical fantasy settings. This is a matter of personal choice. Although few will argue in times to come that Lizardmen can look awesome, whether or not you actually like their feel will always be less certian.
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BY: Rasmus
Since Vice wanted it....
Tactical consideration on the Tomb Kings
1. Your general, the Tomb King or Prince is a hard-hitter, not to go up against a tooled up Dark Elf Lord on Black Dragon, but powerful enough to lead a charge into most things. Don’t hold back with him. He is dangerous. Use that.
2. Your Heirophant must not die. This is paramount, unless you are in your last turn. So keep him in units (this makes sure that a stray cannonball, or the hated Gyrocopter) can’t get to him, and keep him where he can maximize range, and still not get charged. Archers are good units for this. So are Light Cavalry. The Cloak of the Dunes provides mobility, but you still can’t outfly the Gyrocopter for long. Beware.
3. Balance. The Tomb Kings are all about balance. If you get too little in ways of magical items, Priests and Princes/Kings, you won’t get a single incantations through the dispel of any army (even at 3 dice you are in trouble) but if you tool up on bound items (of which there are far too few in the list), spellcasters (if the term be used) and such, you will lack the points to get enough troops into the game to sustain any attack. This will leave your characters open, and they will be killed. However, as long as they are alive they will cause havoc in the enemy lines with their magic. This is tricky.
I have found that for 2k against magic-light armies you can get the most punch with a King, two Priests and the Banner of the Undying Legion. Using the Plaques on the first Priest (NOT the Heirophant) also lets you drain more Dispel-dice than placing the plaques with the Heirophant himself. However, against magic-heavy armies such as Tzeentch, Dark Elves, High Elves and Lizardmen, you might well be stepped on. Certain Vampire-counts will do this too. Your dispel-power will be critically low, and anyone not bringing at least two scrolls will be asking for it.
4. Flankers. This was something I did not consider when I started playing the Kings. You need to win combats and outnumber your enemy to make them run (Fear-causing), and this is pretty hard. However, a large block of Spearmen can do it. Now, if you use a flanker, or several, you can make sure that you will get positive Combat resolution. Powerful flankers are Light Cavalry (unit strength is on their side here, and speed) as well as Carrions and Tomb Scorpions. Now these are not big enough to cause loss of Rank-bonus, but they are potent enough to inflict some more kills, and get heat off the spearmen. It actually does work, and once the enemy flees it is easy for the flankers (which all pursue 3D6”) to run them down.
5. Slammers and soakers. There are essentially two types of units in the TK list. Slammers and Soakers. You must have both, but you can never balance the two, as you will upset the list, and get slaughtered. Slammers are units which excels when they charge. These include the chariots, the Heavy cavalry, and the Bone Giant. These are only good for offensive purposes. As countercharges they can serve in defencive capacities as well, but it takes more planning. Soakers are units that can get lots of punishment and still stay in a combat. Warriors, Swarms and Carrions are like this. The Tomb Scorpions are both, and the Ushabti are neither, being unaffected wether they charge or not, can dish out hurt but crumble far too quickly. Augmented Soakers can be slammers, but it takes magic, and flankers for them to do the work well.
6. Planning. If you want to play this list you need to think twice before making your list. If you want to play offensively you need to make the list for it, and not hold back. All cavalry, chariots and carrions make for a furiously fast army (magic….) but if encountering an army that can soak up this charge (like stationary Chaos) this tactic will fail miserably. The defensive army should stay in place, soak up damage when the enemy gets to your lines, and make sure he pays for it as he approaches. Archers, flankers and catapults serve this well. Carrions and Swarms halt enemy marches and lets you shoot more at them, and with enough magic you can shoot LOTS and make your enemy pay. Once they get to your lines you can possibly break by outnumbering (Fear-causing) and counter-charge with some units. This can well work. Two catapults at 2k is probably a better bet than a single and a casket, unless you are facing an army with no dispel-power. Then the casket will reap deadly harvests of enemies as they try to advance to it.
This is all for now. I have only done ten battles or so with this list, and once I figure out more I will tell you.
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BY: Pendragon
Pendragon’s Tactica Tomb Kings Part 1:
I thought that I might put down some of the things that I have discovered while using the Tomb Kings army.
Pros: Fear, immune to psychology, unbreakable, decent magic, decent magic items, great lords, decent war machines, it came from below, constructs, chariot squads (that can be core)
Cons: Must take two characters, may crumble, cannot march, low initiative, low strength, low armor saves, usually outnumbered, light chariots, can only accept chargers, low magic power levels
Army objectives:
Combat resolution. Fear combined with numbers auto-breaks units that are not immune to psychology. This idea is the core of any Tomb Kings army that I put together. If you haven’t figured this out yet, you are probably losing plenty of games with this army. Against armies that are immune to psychology you will have a fight on your hands, but you still have to go for combat resolution. If you do not you will slowly wither away and end up losing no matter what you do.
Magic. While looked at individually the Tomb Kings magic list and its casters will seem weak compared to other magic/magic-users. This is an illusion. With magic that can bring lost unit members back, magic that can allow charges in the magic phase, every character casting, and reforms before charging, you will find it is very effective. Magic is intrinsically linked to the Tomb Kings. It is magic that animates them. A Tomb Kings army with low magic is likely to be overwhelmed by faster or more numerous armies in short order. You will have to find the amount of magic that makes your army work. If in doubt, add more!
Characters:
Kings and Princes:
The Tomb Kings and Princes are fairly powerful characters. They also have limited magical abilities. With the combination of the two, these guys are very good. Properly equipped and placed on the board, they will more than hold their own.
How you equip your King or Prince will be determined by how you play your army. There really is only two ways to play this army, defensive counter-attack or offensive. A combination army usually is not large enough to pull it off and will quickly find itself in trouble.
If you go defensive a good option is to place your King or Prince on foot. With a King, I like to put him with either a large block of Tomb Guard or Skeleton Warriors with spears. I will usually put some archers near him or some other shooting unit so that his “my will be done” magic can be useful early in the game. This is extremely effect as your opponent must either spend dice to dispel his chants or use dispel scrolls. This will usually free one of the Priests for casting whatever you like. Never forget that the king can affect Screaming Skull Catapults, as this will almost assuredly pull some form of counter magic.
With the Prince I use the same tactic, but usually put him in a shooting unit. The Prince’s magic only affects him or a unit he has joined. I have tried him in a Screaming Skull Catapult crew and in archer units. Both work, but in the archers he is much safer.
Offensive armies probably have chariots and this is where you should put your King or Prince. Although recently I have been experimenting with a flying King. I wouldn’t suggest this tactic unless you are fairly experienced with your army as a whole.
Once you have decided where your King or Prince will go, then magic item selection becomes much easier. What you put on your character will be dictated by your style of play. Item selection itself could take up a whole tactics article, that said I will not go into any great detail on what you should or shouldn’t bring on a character as most of the items are top-notch and a little trial and error will quickly garner much needed experience on what does and does not work well with how you play your army.
Liche Priests:
As stated under the army objectives, magic is very important to a Tomb Kings army. To little magic will usually result in poor performance. This is not always true, but an experienced player will certainly take advantage of low magic in a Tomb Kings army.
Priests are weak characters. Protecting these guys is very important, because as we know magic is important in this army. Stay out of sight with these guys. Empire long rifles, cannons, lore of heavens magic, and other assorted ranged attacks will take these guys out fairly quickly if you are not careful.
I usually bring as many as I can. The more the merrier. In an offensive army I always bring 2 Priests on horseback. In a defensive army I bring 3. In both armies they are always used the same. They are there to move units faster, allow units to charge after the movement phase, bring back dead unit members, and make shooting units shoot even more.
Priests can cast any and all of the incantations on the list. They can also cast the same incantation in the same turn. Never forget that a unit can only be affected by an individual incantation once per magic phase. However, this needs to be a successful incantation. A dispelled incantation can be recast on the same unit as many times as you have casters. This is powerful and can frustrate opponents.
Again, how you play your army will decide where and how you place your Priests onto the board. If you are defensive they can be on foot, flying, or on steed. If you are going offensive then you will probably want a flying Priest and the others on steed to keep up with your army.
Magic items on your Priests should include a dispel scroll or two. I suggest any bound items that can make your army have more spells, such as the Staff of Ravening. After that it is pretty much up to the players personal preference on what items to equip with your Priests. My personal favorite is the Hieratic Jar. You never know when that one single extra spell is going to help. The Plaque of Mighty Incantations deserves a top spot also.
The Casket of Souls. The Casket of Souls can be given to one of your Priests. The Casket can work really well in a defensive army, as it is an additional spell that is cast and can reach across the board early in the game. This can work well if you are magically shooting other units. You can draw a lot of dispel scrolls early in the game with the casket in combination with other shooters. This makes the Tomb Kings close in magic very effective late in the game. I prefer to give the Casket to my lowest level Priest. This is a little bit of a sneaky tactic. Basically, the Prince, then the King, then low level Priests, then the Hierophant, and then the Casket cast in that order. By putting the Casket with the lower Priest a lot of times the opponent will forget that it goes last and will spend most of his/her dispel dice on everything else. Most of the time this usually pulls dispel scrolls and was the intent all along.
Well that is all of part 1 of Pendragon’s Tomb Kings Tactica. Part 2 will cover units and Part 3 will cover tactics.
-Pendragon
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BY: Jester
Gods and their daemons (as special choice ina mortal army, not for an all daemon army):
a) Papa Nurgle, lord of decay and my favorite chaos god.
A good choice against low LD armies. Units of Nurgle should be bigger than those of the other gods. Fear is only usefull when outnumbering an opponent. Nurgle seems to be the best god for slower, bigger armies(not more points, but more miniatures/point). His mark doesn't improve the close combat abilities of his followers and his daemons are slow. You'll see what i mean if you add the fact that it's always a good idea to outnumber an opponent when causing fear.
I can't understand why someone would choose nurglings. It's a swarm, but not unbreakable?? Plaguebearers are better and have a chance to survive against other rank-and-file units thanks to their special abilities, but they lack a command group to be really reliable. i also wouldn't take a great Unclean One, alarge target with M4 isn't very attractive.
A character with the mark of Nurgle is difficult to kill, but there aren't lots of good magic items wich are nurgle-only. Only the plague-banner is worth buying. I normally give my general the crown of everlasting conquest. the same is true for daemons of nurgle: no cool daemonic rewards, but a better survival rate.
His magic is mediocre and can target characters in units, wich is helpfull against magic-heavy armies or VC. Their best spell(pestilence) is totally different and can win the game for you if playing against small elite armies.
b) Khorne, the blood god
Units, characters and daemons of Khorne are designed for Close Combat. They are an exellent choice for beginners and are very good when playing against beginners. Their major advantage is also their most important disadvantage. An experienced general can play with your frenzied units and will propably show you every corner of the table. A real Khorne army has no sorcerers, but lots of dispell dice.
He has the best daemons: fast cavalry or a daemon unit with a command group. The command group is very important for daemons in 6th edition. There über-monster is the bloodthirster, prpably the best fighter in the game, but frenzied. He's one of the few models with 5th edition stats.
c) Slaanesh, the dark prince
Their mark looks great, but doesn't make you unbreakable. Immunity for psychology isn't that powerfull for LD 8 troops. A daemon prince or exalted daemon is very powerfull, certainly when giving the right gifts. Soporific musk and aura of slaanesh are very good and can ruin your opponents day. His daemons aren't as good as bloodletters, but they make a close second with 2 attacks and M5.
I really like his/her/its magic. It's not destructive, but very subtle. (I would play a slaanesh army if I liked pink or purple)
d) Tzeentch, the changer of ways
Characters of tzeentch are very expensive. They're sorcerer-warriors and are as good in combat as any other chaos character (apart from Khorne). They have the cool option to ride a disk, a flying chaos lord is always fun and a mobile character is always usefull. His daemonic gifts are off course magic related.
I have mixed feelings about daemonic units of tzeentch. the horrors are poor in close combat, but can cast some spells. Taking horrors is gambling, wich fits a tzeentch army. I like the screamers of tzeentch, they're expensive but are the ideal tool to kill war machine crew and small skirmishers.
Tzeentch is the lord of magic, but his spells disapoint me. the lore of Tzeentch isn't bad, but are not powerfull enough. Tzeentch is supposed to be the lord of magic, but he doesn't have the best lore. Propably to make the game balanced, but not very fluffy.
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BY: Farseer Ulthrion
also, an addition to the Orcs and Goblins:
Orcs and goblins are more extreme than some people seem to realise. Mostly people refer to tremendous victories or defeats due to randomness in the army, but this is not the extreme I'm talking about. What I mean is the fact that orcs are incredibly tough and cheap so you can get lots of difficult to dispose troops. Goblins are simply cheap cheap and again...cheap, meaning that they can swarm across any other army, and literally swamp the battlefield. On the other hand, you have an average leadership at maximum, and animosity is also usually a very bad thing. The combination of the two means that it's very difficult (and usually depends more on luck than anything else) to keep a solid battleline. Also, your orcs and goblins might have a good rank and outnumber bonus, they are fairly weak on the offensive side, meaning that they won't easily win a combat against the many specialists out there. Especially heavy cavalry can utilize this to breach a hole in your battleline.
So in an O&G army, you can expect to put up a very solid line of massed ranks of tough troops, but it will require a lot of effort and luck to actually get this line in good formation across the board.
One of the main strengths of the O&G, however, are the Orc characters. Even the heroes (big bosses) have a higher T than their dwarven counterpart, and their solid defence allows you to concentrate a bit more on the offensive part. Note that a well-equipped orc warboss (lord) in a unit of lowly orcs is extremely good at putting everything to a hold, including heavy cavalry.
Another extreme are the magic lores. O&G have the problem of not being able to use the magic lores, however they have 2 lores of their own. Simply put, the little waaagh is a bit weaker compared to the average lore, and the big waaagh is a bit more powerful than the average lore. So when chosing your lord choices you are struck between either a shaman who can cast very powerful magic, or a lord who enables you to withstand a lot more physical damage and chargers. Rest ashured that they are both viable options.
They are also extremely predictable. You sure get a lot of choices, and you can make pretty extreme armies, but at the end of the day, you'll probably have a troop-orientated army. This is largely because the army might have all sorts of units, but it lacks skirmishers, flyers and scouts. Furthermore, the only fast cavalry it has have a low Ld and animosity. This is not to say that the wolf riders are bad (on the contrary), but it does limit your tactical uses of the army and maneuvrebility of your units.
Finally, it might seem now that the O&G are more an army of luck and fortune than about tactics. None could be further from the truth. You have various options available to minimize the effects of low Ld and animosty, and even when the whole army decides to preform superbly poor generalship can make you lose anyway (I'm managed this once :().
More than any other army, though, Orcs and Goblins allow you to make a fun army. From a giant eating Archon, to snotlings actually causing a casualty, from squigs deciding to cross half a table in a single turn, to fanatics killed by their own chains. Lots of fun things can happen. Add to that the great stories in the army book, which really inspire you to take misfires lightly (if you don't believe me, read the stories from the doom diver misfire chart).
In general:
Pro's:
- Either cheap T4 troops, or simply very cheap troops
- Powerful characters
- Powerful magic on lord characters
- Many troop type options, almost all are worthwile
- Fun to play with/against
Con's:
- Low Ld and animosity make it difficult to keep your plan together.
- Weak(er) magic on non-lord shamans
- No scouts, flyers and skirmishers limit your tactical options.
- Predictable
Well, I hope this gives a clear image of the Orcs and Goblins (at least, how I experienced them this edition)
Farseer Ulthrion
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Wood Elves
While often less played than the other races, Wood Elves are by no means any worse in terms of gameplay. While many will complain some of the models are bad, they are certainly suitable until the new ones arrive, and the list itself is potent in many ways.
From magic, to CC, the Wood Elves have it all, and I'm gonna show you a break down of the list.
When it comes to lord choices, the wood elves do not slag. With the ability to take either a high level mage with the potent lore of life, or a mighty Forest Lord mounted on a gigantic Dragon, Wood Elves certainly get the best of both of the CC and Magic Worlds.
While a few months back, our magic was potent, now with the revision of the Lore of Life, wood elves certainly have gained much in this way. Top this off with the fact that an Archmage can also choose to use the already potent Lore of Heavens, and the always amusing Lore of Fire, there isn't much we can't do. Top it off with the fact that they an Archmage can be mounted on a unicorn, and you have a deadly model. The 100 points on magic items only make her better. Top this off with the great Wand of Jet, or the very handy Acorn of Ages, she's got a limited, but very good, choice of items.
Generally when Forest Lords are taken, they are given a gigantic dragon to have some fun with. Generally they are the main reason to take a Forest Lord over an Archmage. It tends to be best to equip your lord choice character with the hunting spear, as it gives them extra punch, and any ol' glade guardian cane take the bow of Loren.
I prefer to give my general (be it archmage or Forest Lord) the Hunting Spear, backed up by the Hail of Doom Arrow, a mount (Unicorn or Dragon depending on type), and let em go crazy! The Archmage is a pseudo-flyer with a bolt thrower, and deadly magic, and the forest lord has a fricken dragon! Good times!
The Bladeweaver is generally the most unused of the wood elf characters. Although cool on paper, you never will quiet feel like you got your points worth when you use him, although he is hella fun when you do. These guys and definately make for some very interesting gameplay.
Glade Gaurdians are generally considered to be a fairly weak character for thier points, but they are generally pretty good for equipping with an item you couldn't fit on your lord. Bows of Loren are deadly in thier hands, no doubt.
Mages are also very versitile. I prefer to keep mine mounted, but if they aren't you certainly won't be hindered in any way if they do not. Life magic is a very potent, and very versitile lore, albeit it a bit hindering at times. I generally recomend taking atleast 1 mage to compliment your Archmage, giving you a nice 8 power dice. Equip 'em with Wand of Jet, and let the magic phases begin!
When it comes to core, we are rather lacking, even for an elven army. With only 3 choices, we don't have a wide selection, and to top it off, 1 is widely considered useless.
While Archers cost a massive 13 points a model, it won't mean much when you're taking away armour saves, and ignoring the long range penalty to hit on a very high BS. Often taken in small groups of 5-6, archers are without a doubt, the true core to a wood elf army. Unfortunately, they have some of the worst plastic models, even for the 5th edition range. The metal alternative is much better looking, but unfortunately, you will pay quite a bit to get those metal minis. If you decide not to use the plastic models, you're looking at a very expensive, all metal army.
Glade Guard are not a popular choice, for models or gameplay. Widely considered clumsy, and ineffective for thier points, they can be used well. They can be given a good armour save, but for what you pay, they are suprisingly ineffecient. While it is nice to have ranks, they are generally an unescissary, overpriced (In both gameplay and real life terms) unit.
However, much unlik Glade Guard, are the fantastic Glade Riders. The most expensive of all the fast cav choices, Glade Riders pack a punch (and a very high AS for fast cav). Although some argue they are not worth thier points due to thier very narrowed down role (IE either CC or shooting), I find they are worth everypoint. They are very easy to bait enemies with due to thier high speed, and 3D6" flee reaction. I prefer to equip mine with spears, as I find we generally have enough shooting as is. However some disagree, and have found bow equipped Glade riders to be more effeceint for taking out warmachines and the like.
The strengths in wood elves lie in two things. Shooting, and counter charges. The shooting is generally covered by the archers, but when you need more, there are always alternatives.
The first of these examples is the scout unit. While high in price, there are few better scouts you can get (although they certainly need a point deduction, as the highly superior chameleons skinks cost the same amount of points, have a higher M, and are even poisoned, all on the same BS, and even have the ability to double tap). They serve as your one of your primary defences against warmachines, and atleast 1 scouting unit, either scouts or pathfinders, are always recomended, although I will get to pathfinders later.
The other strength as mentioned before, is that in counter charges. With 5 units, specially designed to counter charge (and in one case, take charges as well!), it's obvious that this is where the Wood elves make up for lack of variety in the core department.
The most common of these tends to be the dryad. Versitile to the extreme, dryads can mess anyones day up. With a higher than average strength, dryads are worth all the points spent to buy them. They have 4 aspects which are selected each turn, which make them a ridiculous pain to fight. One turn they can be strong, the next hard to hit, the next extrordinarily tough, the next they'll be sending out so many attacks it's ridiculous (This is all assuming you don't run away after the first round of CC!). They are more popular than wardancers as they have a higher toughness, and have the ability to take a charge, something that is highly appreciated in the wimpy legions of elves.
The other responsibility of counter charger, lies in that of wardancers. Very much in a similar fashion to that of dryads, wardancers have various dances that can effect how they act. Arguably the most powerful of these dances, allow the wardancers to remove ranks, something most skirmishers are not allowed. This makes wardancers something to be feared, and in gameplay terms, are the cheaper alternative to Dryads. I generally recomend taking atleast one unit of 9 or 13 per game, you will not regret it.
The great eagles is not as restricted to it's counter charging roll as the wardancers are. Being formidable in thier own, they are also good at helping your scouts out with warmachines. Although they cannot take on a whole unit by themself, they can act as a valuable last minute shock troop, although thier primary use lies in warmachine destroying.
Warhawk riders are argueably the Wood Elves most useless unit. Unlike other flying units, they are certainly much cheaper, but at the same time, much weaker, making them less reliable. Thier ability to shoot doesn't mean much as your scouts will really be able to do all you need as far as "Behind lines" shooting goes, and thier roll as a warmachine exterminator are often out done by the stronger great eagle. I wouldn't recomend taking them unless it is in a theme of yours, as they frankly aren't worth it.
The final, and most fun, of all of our combat oriented units, is the terror-causing treeman. Saying that this creature is a beast in CC, is an understatement. Providing the wood elves best defensve against chariots and large monsters, and having the highest toughness in the army, treemen are generally considered to be an essential part to all wood elf armies.
The final unit of Wood Elves, is the ever helpful waywatcher. With great deployment options, and the ability to shoot through denser forestry, waywatchers will be your most effective defense against warmachines, although your highest priced. These guys are great, although they are not taken as often as I would personally like by others. I generally try to include atleast a unit of 5 per army I create. They add flair, and are fun to use no doubt.
I have learned some clever tricks on this very board about WE. For example, I never knew that dryads and treeman, and what not, could move further than normal, should they be in a forest that is moved with treesinging. This is an infinately valuable tactic, that has helped me out alot since I found out about it (although I thought it was illegal at first =).
Wood Elves are a very fun army, and I highly recomend them to those not caring about the emininent re-release.
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Ok, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post in this thread so if I'm not, please remove it.
I'd just like to know more about the skaven, and when someone one will post the skaven section. I'm not really sure but I think the new skaven's been around for a while. However, this is just a question, please do not think of this as a request. (I'm sure most of the mods around here are busy enough). I just think that it'd be nice to have a general help outline for skaven. I noticed that it's a work in progress, but I'm not sure If it's suppose to take this long. Just an idea.
Cheers
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New to Warhammer and looking for an army to start? Warhammer vet looking for a new army? Considered Lizardmen but still undecided about the choice? Well, look no further my friend, for you have found a compacted summary of the grand Lizardmen army! Here I will cover the more commonly used army, Lustria, and may do another later for Southlands if you DO happen to decide to play Lizardmen.
Fluff: So, long ago, there were powerful, god-like beings now known as the Old Ones. These beings had massive capacity for creation, and their servants, the Slann we all know and love, were their most talented. With the aid of their powerful masters, the slanns were capable of lesser works of creation. Well, making a long story short, the Old Ones stumble upon the world on which Warhammer takes place and rebuild it, altering its orbit and such other things. The first sentient race of the world was the Lizardmen. The Old Ones created a killing machine to use as warriors and protectors of their temples and cities. Around this time a huge band of saurus was patrolling the jungles, committing genocide to those creatures that did not fit in with the Old One’s meticulous plans, while defending others fiercely. Eventually, the Old Ones needed nimble, intelligent servants to help run the day-to-day activities in the temple-cities. Thus the skinks were born. The Old Ones also manipulated other jungle beasts to be servants and, if need be, powerful warriors. And so the Kroxigors appeared fr!
om the festering swamps of Lustria to serve the Lizardmen. Eventually, however, the Old Ones were driven off/killed/left of their own accord/whatever, and disappeared for ever, because of Chaos. The remnants of the Old One’s forces sought to end the Chaos insertion, and with the help of a noble sacrifice from the Elves, they were able to stem the tide. Since the departure of the Old Ones, the slann became dormant and thought the best ways to fulfill the Old One’s plans.
Strengths: This section deals with some of the more noticeable strengths of the Lizardmen.
- Magic. Despite the fact that they don’t have their own lore, the Lizardmen have arguably the greatest amount of magical power. The Slann Mage Priest is barely short of god-like in magic terms, and is an absolute must for magical dominance. They get so many bonuses and some great magical items, not to mention the banners they can get, that it’s just disgusting to not at least consider getting them. That is unless you hate magic. If this wasn’t enough, the lesser Skink priests access to one of the best lores in the game: Heavens.
- Troops. Lizardmen have some of arguably the most cost effective infantry in the game, in the form of Saurus Warriors. With two attacks each, a decent strength, and some high-ish leadership, these guys are meat-grinders and can more often than not stand up to almost anything, with the exception of Chaos Chosen and heavy cavalry.
- Dinosaurs! That’s right my friends, dinosaurs. Big, ugly, powerful, scaly beasts ready to absolutely crush everything in their paths. From tyrannosaurus-like carnosaurs to stegosaurus/triceratops/anklyosaurus hybrid stegadons, to raptor-like cold ones and demitridon-like salamanders (who spit fiery luegies!), and finally to the flying reptilians known as terradons, we have an army list that smacks of Jurassic Park. This, my friends, is beautiful!
Weaknesses: No matter how good I made you think this army list is, it still has its weaknesses, as follows.
- Nearly useless magic items bog us down. Dragonfly of Truesilver and a lot of our pendants and such absolutely suck. We actually have a very small selection of useful stuffs, consisting of little armor and little beyond some good cc weapons. It’s sad really…
- Short ranged. Let’s face it, no true war machines and access to weapons who’s highest range is a foot, we are a very short ranged army and rely on speed and positioning to be effective.
- Crappy special characters. Kroak is sweet, but he costs an army on his own. Unless the battle is huge, forget him. Kroq-gar is practically useless. Wish we had some access to some more powerful cc characters, but, alas, no cigar.
- No lore. We don’t have our own lore. That’s pretty self-explanatory.
- High points costs. We will be outnumbered and we will suffer from bad roles because of it.
While I am not the most “experienced” lizardmen player, I do know a fair deal of tactics. Now, I know that some consider word of mouth tactics with little experience is very illegitimate, but the following are agreed on by a large sum of lizard players, so I’ll go ahead and try this anyway. I will try to break down some well-used tactics as well as good force-organization considerations that I do not doubt will be useful to not only the newbie lizard player, but also the moderate-good player looking for some tips. Without further blabbing, here’s the Tactica.
SPECIAL RULES:
Blowpipes are a fun addition to what our skinks can do, making it so we can hail even more poisoned death upon our enemies. Javelins and blowpipes have been found to be nearly equal in effectiveness, depending on the given situation, and it is advised that at least one unit should have them.
Cold-blooded: This is a fun little rule that will make some inexperienced opponent cry cheese at times. This gives a little extra staying power in much needed close combat, so those who enjoy saurus armies will usually love this rule unanimously. Personally I love it ;D
To be continued...
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*Lizardmen continued*
LORDS:
Slann-mage-priest: With its higher leadership, and magic-heavy abilities, the slann is a good choice for magical dominance as well as good leadership. Generations can be a waste in lower points games, and players usually don’t go past fourth generation. I advise not to use them higher than 4th unless you are playing at least 3k.
An important question that results from the fact that the slann is pathetic in close combat, with his measly skink attendant attacking for him, is this: What unit should I put him in? This topic is highly debated, with several sides. The two major stances on this choice are, quite obviously, blessed spawning saurus, or temple guard. Both are excellent choices, and the spawnings usually chosen are Tlazcotl and Quetzl with spears complimented by the banner of prophecy, which results in a nice, hard unit that can auto-break other units. The temple guards are also a good choice, what with their halberds and higher armor and being stubborn. Plus they look so dang cool! Magic weapons chosen by slann are usually plaque of dominion (or tepok, which also helps a lot) and either cube of darkness, which can shut down very important magic phases, or diadem of power, which some prefer sticking on a priest. Lores that are chosen for the slann usually depend on the player, but a popular one is Light.
Saurus Oldblood: Ah yes, the dreaded saurus killing machine! My personal favorite. If you want the power of a Chaos lord packed into scaly skin, this is your man…err, Lizardman. Speaking of which, there are many different ways to tool up your saurus general, whether he be the Oldblood or the Scar-veteran. So many in fact that it would take an entire tactica on its own to explain them all. The most widely (and effectively) however, is the Jaguar Saurus of Doom/Death, or JSOD for short. What this entails is basically giving your saurus the Jaguar Charm and a greatweapon. You can choose other weapons and equipment from there, as you desire. It is also important to remember to take blessed spawnings! Which brings me to my next topic: Mounting Your General. If you plan on having your saurus on foot, skip this here paragraph. Many people love the thought of a giant monstrous dinosaur from the dark depths of the jungle charging down enemy monsters a sadistically fun thought (me included!). This is not always the most practical choice (Carnosaur for those of you who are slow J), as it makes a large target that many a cannon would love to blast into nothingness. Not to mention that the carnosaur is far from on par with other such beasties, i.e. dragons, and players often feel inadequate. Nearly every general, however, loves oldies on Cold-ones, and they are often quite fierce when put into units of Cold-one Riders. The –1+ or so saves are often a very convincing factor.
That’s about it for lords, I’m sure I missed some, but it probably isn’t very important.
HEROES:
Saurus Scar-veteran: See oldblood, but ignore comments about carnosaur and remember that he’s limited to two spawnings and 50 points of gear. Still useful for staying power, still an evil little bugger that can really screw with people’s battleplans.
Skink Chief: This is one of the most useless heroes in the game, in many people’s minds. In fact, there is only really one viable option with this guy that actually makes him stick out: FSOD. FSOD, or Flying Skink of Doom/Death is, quite simply, a cheap mage/war machine killer. Give this guy a Cloak of Feathers, a Sword of Might, scouting, and let him fly! If you really want to, though, he can be a…poor to average fighter. If you want to just have fun and mess around, give him Dagger of Sotek and Killing Blow some poor sap’s chaos lord. That’s always fun.
Skink Priest: Generally used as scroll caddies, magic support, dependant wizards on their own, or diadem-holders, skink priests are actually more useful that their combat-based counterpart (skink chief). The option of putting him in a Stegadon is pointless, mostly because you no longer have the giant bow. But the extra protection and impact hits are always fun. Not one of my favorites, but if you want to, go ahead and do it. I just advise against it.
CORE: Thus brings us to the staple of all armies: the core choices.
Saurus: Wow. These guys, simply put, are amazing. Very few armies have units on par with saurus for core. Only problem is high point costs. The two attacks and decent save are very helpful in making these guys contenders with even chaos warriors. Usually you will see these guys with handweapons, and we’ll get to why in a second. But first, a note on command: the points cost to get this guy up one attack is stupid, and if you make/accept challenges with this guy, it is pretty much a waste (unless you want to distract that black-orc warboss while you kill the warriors around him) unless you are using him to fill points.
Spears. It is hotly debated whether or not they are worth the points to give them spears, but in my humble opinion, it isn’t. For one, you get no real benefit on the charge (and that’s generally what you want to get) with spears, and you worsen their survivability (no parry rule). On the other hand, the +second rank attacks can often turn the tide of a battle. Is it worth the points? I personally don’t believe so, but in the end it’s up to you. I will cover spawnings in the SPECIAL part of the tactica, so be patient or skip the rest of my stuff.
Temple Guard: As earlier discussed, temple guard are a viable option for slann-guarding. Let’s face it, 3+ save in close combat when using hand weapons is freakin’ sweet. Plus the two high-er strength attacks really help heighten these guys’ appeal. Reasons not to take them are they have to be joined by the slann, which can be a bad thing at times. If they are somehow overrun, bam! There goes a 900-point (at least!) unit all in one turn. Stubborn helps, but they can still be auto-broken, which sucks.
Jungle Swarms: They do what they do. Block marches, slow down big units, set up flank charges, and most of all, live for a surprising amount of time. Whether you think they are a waste of points or a valuable addition is your opinion, I really don’t have my own. Oh, and the poisoned attacks work wonders.
Skinks: Skinky skink-skinks! You cannot, I repeat, cannot leave these guys at home! I will physically force you to bring them if need be! How can you pass them up? People are scared of them and they do some great damage. Poison is a godsend against things like giants and ogres, which have little armor and you generally don’t wanna mess with in close combat. Just remember to keep them outta combat!
Javs or blowpipes you ask? This choice is purely situational. If the skinks are gonna take a charge and are just screening more valuable troops, go with javelins. They don’t suffer the normal penalties from moving and long distance, plus you get an armor save. These guys are great in conjunction with Kroxigors. If you are scouting or just standing and getting off as many shots as possible (defending an obstacle, maybe?) go for blowpipes. Double shots are vicious, especially on stand and shoots where you have to get poison to do anything anyways. Mine as well skip rolling to wound! These guys are oh so great for scouting because they have a greater range than javelin skinks, and can employ harassment tactics more effectively. Also used well with Kroxigors, but not as much in my opinion.
To be continued again...
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*Lizardmen continued again*
SPECIAL:
Saurus Cavalry: Wow, these guys… I just love em to death. Who doesn’t enjoy hulking lizards carrying spears and riding faster, more stupid hulking lizards? Apart from stupidity, there is little to dislike about Cavalry. In fact, I can’t think of any! Well, except for the fact that they have miniscule armor compared to the other heavy cavalry choices in the game. But these are a huge improvement to skink cold one riders. They even have better weaponskill than regular saurus! High point costs, but worth it for flanking and riding down goblins. Give them Banner of Huanchi, and watch as your opponent whimpers in terror. Again, I’d leave the champ outta this unit, since he’s worth more than half as much as a regular saurus.
Kroxigors: Like skinks, you should never leave home without these guys. Decent save, better than other similar units, and skink screens make these guys a must-have. Leave out the ancient, he doesn’t add a whole lot, but he’s more cost-effective than saurus champs, so… if you want to have him, I wont hold it against you. Skink screens are almost a must, so keep these guys on the flank and have some fun bashing stuff.
Chameleon Skinks: Infiltrating, sneakier skins that are harder (much) to hit than regular skinks, these guys are pretty fun. A cheap tactic is to hide them behind enemy lines, making them in effect out of sight, but I wouldn’t do this since it seems a bit like powergaming. People generally don’t use them, but this is just personal prefrence. Keep the units small.
Terradons: Like a lot of other stuff lizards have, I love these guys to an extent that probably isn’t very healthy. Take into account the amount of stength 4 attacks. Then consider the fact that these guys fly, making them a very fast unit. And if this isn’t enough to make you start drooling, throw in hit-and-run. Salivating yet? Thought so. These happy bird-like reptilians are best used for hunting war machines and lone mages, but they can also be effective flank-chargers, helping out them there saurus. A large drawback to terradons, however, is their generally low leadership. If you hit-and-run, you run the risk of losing your terries. Horrible thought, ain’t it? But in my opinion, it’s worth it. Plus they have some great models to boot.
RARE: Whew, almost done folks!
Stegadon: This hulking mass of flesh is probably the most debated unit in the army. This is a love-hate relationship. Often you find that the giant bow, coupled with impressive strength, 2+ save skinks, impact hits, and survivability just brings so much joy to you as you smash through unit after unit with your beautiful triceratops mutation that should have probably never happened. At others, however, you may discover how frustrating it is to see nearly 250 points of destructive power being wasted by low-end troops because of low leadership and unsoloability. In other words, don’t charge these guys in alone, it barely ever works. All in all, this is a preference. Just try not to cry when he starts sucking to goblins…
Salamanders: Have you ever giggled like a little schoolgirl because you get a sick, sadistic pleasure from engulfing a unit in flames, causing a heck of a lot of casualties? Yeah, the salamander seems to have that effect. At under 70 points a pop, sallies are one of my favorite and most useful units in the game. I can’t argue with how many hits you get with Spout Flames, even if they are considerably low-strength. Sallies can also be a support unit in close combat. Low leadership and general hatred from other players are drawbacks, but sallies are just too fun to pass up. Keep in mind that two is the optimum unit level, and that people usually frown upon three. Whiners.
TACTICS: In this section, I will talk about some very fun tactics that have been honed over the year or so the new book has been out.
Thunder Lizard: it’s in your book.
Flying Serpent: Again, it’s in the book.
Harassment: This is generally a skink-tactic, although I suppose it could work with sallies. This involves being just out of charge range of a unit that is especially nasty in close combat, say, chaos warriors. The point is to keep moving as the warriors try to get close and charge the skink unit. Eventually he may be pulled into a flank position with some Kroxigors or something, and at which point you charge the sonofagun. This tactic generally only works on frenzied units or complete newbs. Most vet players wont fall for it, so you should save yourself some embarrassment.
Lone Slann: This tactic is pretty self-explanatory. It’s a slann taking advantage of his maneuverability, being alone and free to zap a unit with magic at his leisure. This also helps if you need to get somewhere and use that high leadership for a valuable unit.
Using swarms: Roadblock a unit, say a giant. Flank that giant. OR, roadblock a hefty cc unit, such as knights. Then flank charge. You get the idea.
Dang, didn't know it was gonna be that long! Oh well, enjoy ;D
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I guess I'll try the Vampire counts just cause I gots the book for em'.
VAMPIRE COUNTS:
The Vampire Counts (affectionatly reffered to as the VC) can muster up a ton of dead rotting walking carcasses. They move rather slowly and attack fairly slowly, but there are a lot of them. They have some pretty awesome units putting aside the skelies and the zombies. The Black Knights are great (by undead standards) and move fast (also by Undead standards).
They can take Vampires, awesome close combat units and with access to pretty nifty gear. The 5 different bloodlines, Strigoi, Necrach, Blood Dragon, Von Carstein & Lahmia. All of their Vampires can use Necromancy (except the Vamp. Thralls). If they can't make the use of counts/lords (which are Vamps in the Lords catagory), they can take Necromancer, which fill in the magic roll. Vampires tend to be point heavy but are very strong, very fast and deadly combatents.
Blood Dragon Vampires all specialise in Close Combat. They can take down almost any opponent they are required to fight. They could take down a Khorne Bloodthirster.
Von Carstein, is basically the all around vampires but can use the SoC list for the army of sylvanian which is a whole nother story.
Strigoi, (who've seemed to de-evolve rather than evolve) are machines driven by the hatred of their own kindred. All Strigoi vampires cannot take any weapons/armour or such things, but are none the less, still potent wizards and are more resilient than other vampires.
Necrach Vampires are the most magic oriented. While they are the worst Vampires in close-combat, that really doesn't say much. They still retain the scary speed of vampires and the strength of them, but with more powerful magic.
Lahmian Vampires are exclusively female. They are the fastest vampires. They also specialise in psychological abilities that can screw up your opponents forces.
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Units: The thing that you must remember with the undead is that they all cause fear! Fear is your greatest weapon in this army. Remember that relying on your Characters only can be a bad idea.
Moving onto the units.
LORDS:
Vampire Counts & Lords:
In 2000 point games, Counts are very good generals. Lords are generally reserved for larger games considering they take up a lord & hero slot. Usually want to give him a mount of some sort and always a form of a ward save considering that you are with undead and that he is the most important model in your army. If you give him a big mean mount (Winged Nightmare or Zombie Dragon) than you can throw him into the thick of the enemy and not have to worry about him too much. In small games, this is a bad idea though as the troops won't benefit from his aura.
Master Necros:
These guys aren't that great in games of 2000 points because they lack the strong power of a vampire. They make a nice second lord choice in big battles though.
HEROES:
Thralls:
Vampire Thralls are useful for making the fighting capabilities of your army better and the Ld of your core units better and can carry the general's standard. They are awesome in reducing the casualties in reducing the amounts of casualties suffered.
Wraiths:
These undead guys are great for challenging power enemy characters who have left their magic weapons at home, at his girlfriends car, ect. and can scare some dudes nicely with the Terror he invokes.
Necros:
A must have. They give you the magical support that the VC or any undead army desperatly needs. It's very wise to give them a bunch of dispel scrolls while you can have your general taking more interesting items.
CORE:
Skelies:
Skeletons are the basic bread & butter unit of the Undead. They can be bought in big units without equiptment or fewer of the lightly equipted ones, while keeping in mind you can always raise em' up from the dead if need arise.
Zombies:
One of the c**piest cc units in the game because of the "Braindead" rule. Basically, they have to wait until everyone has attacked and then they go (even after the Great Weapons). However, their strength is in numbers, not quality. With the highest unit minimum and the lowest cost and the easiest to raise. It all boils down to the fear tests; the more the better (and scarier!).
Ghouls:
They are a great screen for missile fire and prove useful in close combat when other units can get to other enemies. Their poisoned attacks are great for killing skirmishers & small units. They are alive however & not undead.
Dire Wolves:
They have a long charge distance (18" is pretty long!) and a unit strength of 2 per model and with that on top of it, a nasty slavering charge. It is ideal for killing artillery crews and small units. They do a good job of attacking the flank. However, they are extremely vulneralbe to missile fire.
Bat Swarms:
Flexible and very fast. They can tie up enemy units and are good at taking care of warmachines.
SPECIAL TROOPS:
Grave Guard:
Grave Guard are exceptionally strong and can continue to fight even after the death of the general and even characters should be aware of them and try to keep away of them because they all have killing blow.
Black Knights:
Same that applies to Grave Guard applies to Black Knights. But wait, there's more! Their equiptment gives them a better armour save and strength 6 attacks on the charge and they can move faster. They will rip the enemy apart if they start in the flank.
Fell Bats:
The fastest unit that you have, but don't hit hard and are best suited at warmachine hunting. They can also kill missile armed skirmishers in open, enemy wizards who stay on the outside of protection of their units.
Spirit Hosts:
These can hold up chariots and large monsters easily with the "Ethereal" rules that apply to them. They are great screenings against missile fire.
RARE UNITS:
Banshees:
They are expensive & frail, but can be very hindering against heavy cavalry with their screams.
Black Coaches:
Any weapon with 7+ is the bane of this construct, otherwise which is extremely resilient to missile attacks. It does a great job of charging units, but won't last long if charged.
And so concludes my part here.
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Bretonnia part 1[/i]
Well let’s start with the Lords and work our way down shall we? First is the Bretonnian Lord. No fancy name, just a Bretonnian Lord (often referred to as a duke.) Obviously, he is the best combat character that the Bretonnian’s have. While having weapon skill six and usually strength six on the charge (with the abundance of magic lances) he is good, but doesn’t compare to a lot of other armies lord characters. But needless to say, that a Bretonnian lord is still a powerful character on the battlefield, and adds and extra punch to a charging lance of knights.
Then there is the Prophetess…that in my opinion doesn’t really belong with Bretonnian’s. Some people will argue, but I just do not believe Bretonnia to be a magic heavy army and your points would be better spent somewhere else. Sure she has access to heavens, but in all honesty life is a perfectly good Lore and works well enough as it is. Only time I would consider a Prophetess is a 3000pt battle or more, and even then a second Duke might be better to consider.
Now, onto hero’s. As Bretonnia, we are required to take one more hero than normal, so in 2000pts we have five heroes when everyone else only has 4. That can be a benefit but can also be a problem. The benefit is that we get a BSB without spending the points for the upgrade. The downside is that there is another character that is taking points away from your core. Now, you do not have to max out on characters, but then again with the ability to field 5 characters at 2000pts you can field a Lord, 2 Paladins, and 2 Damsels. Which gives you a decent combat force, as well as magic defence. Paladins are your basic character, can give the added bonus to a knightly unit. Damsels are your basic casters, with access to the Lores of Life and Beast. Really, Beast does not suit the Bretonnian styles of fighting, considering a mounted damsel can hide in the center of a lance and not be able to cast magic. Life however, does not require line of sight (except for rain lord) and can be very useful. Your damsel remains protected and she can still kill things.
Now, the hero’s have been more or less covered…let’s focus on the big benefit of Bretonnia…the Knights. Starting at the lowest of the knights is the Knights Errant who are affectionately called (by me) The Boys. They are essentially your basic human on a horse with a lance and armour. No biggy right? Wrong. While they just appear to be humans on horses, they are much more than that. They are Impetuous! Essentially they are harder to control than your basic knight, but they aren’t as hard as frenzied units. Basically, they have to take a leadership check if you did not declare a charge and they could have. Now that is the disadvantage of Impetuous, the advantage is that if you didn’t figure them to be in range they may still charge…but the bigger advantage that on the charge they are immune to psychology for that turn. Added with the Errantry banner, for the cost of another Knight, you get +1 St on the charge and –2 to the impetuous test. So you’re testing on 5 to see if you can hold back the charge.
Next up are the Knights of the Realm. Your basic unit of knights, which you are required to have at least one unit of. Relatively cheap compared to most other armies knights. Nothing fancy aside from the fact they can take a magic banner. Now Pegasus Knights are essentially Knights of the Realm on…you guessed it, a Pegasus. They have an extra wound but do not receive a barding bonus. Aside from that, they can fly and are skirmishers, which make them excellent flanking units. A unit of 3 or 4 with a standard in the flanks of a unit getting hit by a lance of knights will cause even the hardiest units to flee.
Here comes the fun ones, the Knights of the Grail. Which are Questing Knights and Grail Knights. Questing Knights are the most unique unit of knights in the entire game of Warhammer. Reason being, the models. They are guys with massive swords who have their entire life on their backs. Now, for rules and game play, people will say they have the most punch than any other unit of knights. That may be true, but during combat they are also the most vulnerable of Bretonnian knights. Their great weapons remove their shields in combat so they only have a 3+ save. Ok so they have great weapons and are knights, big deal…but they also have the questing vow, which is quite cool. In the previous editions of warhammer, all the questing vow did was make them immune to panic, however in the most recent version of the Bretonnian list the questing vow makes them reroll a failed psychology test. While it is still possible for them to flee from panic and terror and such, there is a greater chance that they will pass which makes it all that much more better.
Finally the last unit of knights to cover, who also happen to be my personal favourite unit, the Grail Knights. The Grail knights are, arguably the best unit of knights in the game. Immune to psychology, 2 attacks that usually hit on 3+ at st6 on the charge…while in lance formation. Even chosen chaos knights are hard pressed to cause as many wounds. These boys are the second most expensive unit in the Bretonnian list for a reason (second only to Pegasus knights). A unit of 8 grail knights in lance formation with a damsel in the middle rank will have: 14 attacks hitting a unit, magic resistance, and 2 ranks. Throw in a full command for the hell of it and every time they charge they will break a unit guaranteed (unbreakable and stubborn units don’t count). I try to include one unit of 8 in every army that I personally make. Sure it’s an expensive unit (comes out to 365 I think) and it is likely to draw a lot of attention, but in all honesty, all the fire power and magic that gets directed at it isn’t going to the rest of my knights, and even if 4 knights live out of 8…that’s still the same amount of attacks as a lance of 8 Knights of the Realm. What I’m saying is that, even with a small amount of models left they still cause quite a hurting.
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Bretonnia part 2
Now for the Low born…errr I mean Peasants. If you are unfamiliar with peasants, they are inbred, malnourished, weaklings. But anyways, let’s begin with the Men-At-Arms. They are the basic lowborn, brought to war by their lord. They have a pitiful weapon skill of two, which means they are hitting weapon skill five on 5+. No big deal, that’s where the honour is, let’s leave it for the knights. So really, WS2 isn’t that big of a disadvantage as long as you don’t go against the big baddies. Men-At-Arms are actually still quite good. They have a decent save and for no additional cost you may switch their halberd to a spear. But the real question is, is that a good idea? With WS2 they are practically always going to be hit on a 3+, so yes it is a very good idea. The halberd might give a strength bonus, but spears can give you more attacks. But what’s the biggest benefit of a Man-at-arms? He is cheap! Dirt-cheap really! You can have a squad of 20 for 100pts!
Ok next are the Bowmen. Your basic human archers, they aren’t going to hit much and aren’t going to kill much. But, they have long bows so have a decent range, and are only one point more than a man-at-arms. One of their bonuses is their defensive stakes. Basically, it adds an inch to the charge range of the unit charging them, but removes all their charging bonuses. So a lance won’t give the extra strength, great weapons strike last etc. For one point more, then can skirmish, which allows them to make an excellent screen to either prevent your Knights Errant from charging or prevent the enemy from charging your knights.
My favourite unit of low born has to be the Grail Reliquae. They are the only peasants that benefit from the Blessing of the Lady. From what I can tell of this unit, they have one weakness in the Bretonnian army. They have WS2 (as they are peasants) and they only move 4. Other than that the unit is all advantage. They are stubborn, they hate everything, they have leadership 8 (only peasant unit which does), they have the blessing, come with unit strength of 12, and (after buying more battle pilgrims) can be brought up to unit strength of 36. Theses are however, the most expensive peasants…but not by much.
There are the Mounted Yeomen, which are not anything special. They are your basic fast cav. Slight save, fast moving, bows, cheap. I have personally never used them, but they would make good flankers, but I guess it would be a personal decision on them.
Finally is the Trebuchet. A recently added war machine to the Bretonnian Arsenal. It’s a cheap effective unit. A strong stone thrower with a minimum range of 12” and a crew of 4 models. Most people don’t believe it fits in with the Bretonnian image, but it is a good change from the ordinary. People will often complain that something is unfluffy and shouldn’t be in the army list, but then they complain when they see an army that is the way Bretonnia is supposed to be played, a vast majority of knights.
Next installment will be last, discussing tactics and such.
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where the orges ?
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Noone has bothered to write them up. If you do it I will gladly include them.
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The Baron speaks the truth about all the Bretonians except for the yeomen in my opinion.
They are a very cheap unit of mounted horse archers in my opinion and if you need something to draw attention and/or fire away from the knights then the opponent may mistake these guys for important enemies. Especially if your playing people that don't know about Bretonnia
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The article in here explains the DE as expensive and mostly metal. The post however is about 4 years old - so does this still stand true? Based on some threads I read in the DEldar forum, they are mostly plastic now (though I may have misunderstood).
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No, you'd be right in thinking the majority are still metal im afraid
all of the characters, all but one of the five special choices and both rare choices are still metal
they only have four plastic units, three of which are core (and one of which is the same kit with different options)
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How up to date is the information in this thread?
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not very, if you look at the dates they were posted the actual reviews were done over 4 years ago
that means that a good third of the books have now been redone, not to mention i think a new edition of the rule book (pretty sure that was summer '06)
plus a new army entirely has been added (daemons)
all in all, you'd be best looking into the army specific boards, i think they have a bit more up to date and in depth info on the armies
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Somewhat yes, but even the stickies in the army-specific boards are getting a bit dated by now. One of the many projects I keep trying to get done in between bouts of not getting my army finished for the 8th 40KO tournament is updating the ones I know anything about (so Dwarfs then. And maybe one or two others)
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It still mentions BoC and HoC mixing, hehehe
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Exactly, it be ooooooold.
I know I'm not staff in these here parts, but I think it's safe to say that modly appreciation and possibly sexy sexy custom titles would be doled out to those who put their rears in gear and produced an updated run-down for any armies they feel comfortable discussing at length
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I play BoC so I would do the writeup if anyone is interested.
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Then do so, consider me interested at the least.
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Will do but will probaly be tommorrow before I post it.
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Don't tell me, show me.
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Beasts of Chaos
The beastmen are not an easy army to play. You will find that your book is underpowered and that a lot of unfavourable rulings are made against you. Having said that I love the beastmen.
Pros
Good toughness
Fast moving infantry
Cheap troops
Good WS
Access to monsters
Cons
Crap Armour
Low Leadership
No ranged weapons.
Beastmen are the guerilla force of WHFB. A beastmen army should rely on it's mobility to put several units against a enemy unit to ensure victory. A BoC army should play like a wolfpack hunting it's foes. You will depend on combo charges as a beastman unit ain't spectacular. Low leadership will also hammer home this point of redunency particurally when fighting the undead or daemons. A good beast general plans for his units to fail.
The type of army you cna field is varied with the Boc. You can go for the standard force led by a beastlord which is depent on it's beastherds and chariots to get the job done and use monsters in support. Or you can play a force led by a doombull which allows you to take minos as core. This type of army is similar to the Ogre kingdoms list as it relies on fear and fast mobile monsters. Also you must choose what mark to take. Undivided is for those who can't decide and allows you the most choice of other marked units.
Khorne gives you frenzy and dispell dice. This mark is as good as the player using it. Against someone who isn't prepared you will dominate. If someone however is able to use frenzy aghainst you, you'll be lead all over the board. A personal favourite of mine I rate this mark as the best as it also protects the beastmen from their low Leadership.
Tzeentch turns characters into casters and units give Power dice. The best mark for characters and the worse for units it allows you to pump out a barrage of magicial attakc s but severlly lessens your units Lds protections and gives them no benefits in the game. If you like magic then I recommend this, remember the BoC lore of tzeetch isn't the best lore in the game though.
Nurgle is a funny mark. It gives your units fear, and scaly skin to minos whcih is great. Previously I found it lacking but in the current metagame (fear causing enemies common) it becomes alot better. If you want a mino force then it's the best mark otherwise meh. The lore is primarly more support.
Slaanesh is IMHO the worse mark. It give your unit a immunity to psychology whcih for a army like the Boc who depend on being able to flee is death. The LD protection is alright thoguh. However it has by far the best lore whcih can easily dominate the game. IF you want a magic heavy force it's wonderful otherwise don't bother.
Lords
Beastlord
The standard general for a beast army. The beastlord is best used as a super beastmen. His high movement and toughness means he is quite a good investment for a beastherd. I recommend you keep him mimally tooled to do his job and just leave him to it. Treat him like any generic leader.
Beastlord
Chaos armour, great weapon, shield, pelt of the dark young.
Total:139 points
This is my favourite beastlord to run. He's cheap enough that you don't break the bank in taking him and resonably versatile, the great weapon is truly a useful weapon as his strength of 7 with it means that chariots can be popped. Pelt of dark young is there to add to your army's magicial protection .
Other variations include
Khorne beastlord
Chaos armour, greatweapon, shield, .
Total: 154
This is a beastlord odesigned to simply be skilled at fighting things. Pelt of the dark young isn't needed if your playing a khorne army. The mark of khorne doesn't alter his proffession, which is to say, hitting things but instead makes him a more potent fighter. Be wary though he isn't able to fight other races generals if they're fully tooled up so should be treated with care.
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I could put up a VC and/or ogre one if you so wanted... the new army book is quite different from the old one, and nobody else has updated it.
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We could do with a beastman update as well.