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Author Topic: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)  (Read 4510 times)

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Offline legionnaire

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2007, 10:15:01 PM »
So what the problem here is that you think that a non doc guard army doesn't have to guts to take the fight to them.

We can it just takes a little planing and tactics.
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Offline swingliner

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2007, 11:04:30 PM »
I think one of the best ways to inject some mobility into vanilla armies is to make heavy use of Heavy Weapons squads.  Heck, you can get up to 5 of them (that's 15 weapons able to put out serious hurt at 36" or more) without even needing a separate FOC slot.  Then just load up your infantry squads with special weapons, back them up with vehicles that can move and shoot their own heavy weapons, and off you go.  That way, the squads that have to remain stationary to fire can REALLY put out some damage, while the ones that don't can move off and do silly things like capture objectives without loosing much if any firepower.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2007, 11:13:30 PM »
The only Doc I use, Is hardened fighters. I put it on my main Command squad so my HSO is WS5 with his powerfist. Otherwise, I use three other of my Docs, to buy back units I want to use. As my army is heavily converted, I like to choose Docs that fit the theme of my army, not the ones that seem the most tactically sound.

Though, if I where to not give my Command squad hardened fighters, then I would be playing vanillia. I don't think there would be too much of a difference in my playing style, besides freeing up some points.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 11:14:33 PM by Killersquid »
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Offline *Nosferatu*

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2007, 11:18:53 PM »
This kind of brings up the fact that we don't really use doctrines the way they were supposed to be used; fluff and flavor. I find that most people I've seen only really take 1 or 2 they really need and then whore on the restricted troops; there's no real fluff or flavor there.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2007, 11:29:21 PM »
I find that most people I've seen only really take 1 or 2 they really need and then whore on the restricted troops; there's no real fluff or flavor there.

That is what I do. Does that mean that I don't have reasons behind the Doctrines I take? I choose hardened fighters, to represent the skill my rat-man Warlord has in combat and the skill of my warriors are as well, then I take preists, ogryns and rough riders (all restricted troop whoring) to further enhance the assault-oriented theme of the army (also, whats a rat-man army, without Rat Ogres?). Just because someone takes only one true doc, doesn't mean there cannot be Fluff or flavor behind it. I would personally take other Docs (Iron Disipline, CoC etc..) but they don't fit my armies theme. Though I may use Eldar Fighters eventually  as my army has a lot of Eldar trophies.
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Offline Dr_Ruminahui

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2007, 12:27:12 AM »
I have to agree with The Squid... taking one (or 2) central doctrines and then a bunch of restricted troops is not whoring.

Really, its all about theme.  Killersquid's is about a skaven guard, so his additional doctrines reflect that theme - Ogrynn (rat ogres), priests (really crazy rats), and the like.

Mine is a bit more complex - its an Chaos infested planet that was virus bombed and then (much later) recolonized.  Its an Eclesiarchical planet, meaning it doesn't have to provide tithes to the navy or the imperial guard - and also meaning it hosts a schola progenium (the place they train stormies, commissars and inquisitors).  My own army is a PDF force that found its way into the IG through extra-ordinary means (inquisitorial fiat - I often field a WH inquisitor and stormies with it).

My own doctrines are conscripts (with no tithes, the jails fill up - that's where the navy typically draws its gangs), independent commissars (the schola), stormies (the schola), psychers (the ex-chaos) and one other doctrine that will be rough riders (camel borne scouts - its a desert planet).

These themes are at least as credible as those for the GW "famous regiments"/

I can't really say how meeting a theme is "whoring"... now, perhaps those that just take COD, ID, LI, DT (or a combo there of) and then spend their doctrines willy nillly... that might be whoring.

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Offline Ailaros

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2007, 12:52:24 AM »
I can't really say how meeting a theme is "whoring"... now, perhaps those that just take COD, ID, LI, DT (or a combo there of) and then spend their doctrines willy nillly... that might be whoring.

Yeah, that's my idea of doctrine whoring (If I even had one before reading the last few posts). People who take CoD, ID, vets and DT just because they're free / "necessary" bugs me.

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In fact, as my little narrative might imply, vanilla forces are often more fluffy and creative than doctrined forces are, given the popularity of some doctrines.

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Offline *Nosferatu*

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2007, 01:11:23 AM »
First off yeah I guess it isn't exactly whoring, my definition was off, anyways, I'm sure doctrine whoring though does get retarded quickly.

In fact, as my little narrative might imply, vanilla forces are often more fluffy and creative than doctrined forces are, given the popularity of some doctrines.

Reversal there I guess, Doctrines make you unique, but since everyone uses doctrines, only the vanilla Guard forces are not being spammed.

Though I don't know about vanilla forces being more creative and fluffy, I guess it really depends on how the person handles the doctrines. A person can use the vanilla list and write his own fluff and such, and still not make it seem cookie cutter. The same thing can be said to make doctrine lists unique.


Offline Lt_PliskinAJ

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2007, 02:52:58 AM »
Im sorry but if you can't win without doctrines something is wrong. I do use the doctrines because my army doesn't use any of the restricted troops so i use close order.  As my games get bigger tho i might drop all doctrines all together. I played before this codex and it was dotrine free and it was fine. I believe its there to support people's fluff.

Games workshop is just making the armies more customizable. Take for instance how IG can use allies now.

Offline Skankin_Catachan

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2007, 07:00:22 PM »
vanilla more fluffy than doctrined list? or vice versa?


The army is only as fluffy as the player who builds it and his creativity. There are fluffy doctrine and vanillas armies out there. There are also vanilla and doctrine armies that whore units and abilities.

It all comes down to the individual.


Offline legionnaire

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2007, 09:13:10 PM »
meh for my so all vanilla army. I have as of the moment one CC command squad 3 support squad and 3 platoons and 2 leman russes and well i've been doing find in the few games i have played.
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Offline The Hobo Hunter

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2007, 02:51:13 AM »
I used to go for a 'true' cadian army. The full deal on every soldier available - everyone had sharpshooters, every officer had ID, I loaded up on whiteshields and was even thinking about stormtroopers. In lists 1500 and over I used to always have Creed and Kell running my army, and it was quite a competent list. Then I thought "woah, why don't I try out some abhumans, ogryns and ratlings sound fun. Oh wait, I don't have the doctrines for that, but I still want to be a 'cadian' army."

Hence the birth of my doctrine-less cadians. The codex states that using doctrines is perfectly representative of any regiment, so now I can still wave my cadian banner high (with Kell) and use any unit I wish.

Gameplay-wise I haven't really been negatively affected. I've had good success with my ogryns and ratlings, and my tactics haven't really been altered (except the times i use my abhumans, I'm still getting the hang of them). Yes I miss rerolling a lot of '1's on my meltaguns, but I only took it to be 'cadian', so it's not like my battle strategy hinged on it or anything.

As others have said, the list is only as fluffy as the player who writes it - a simple doctrine/vanilla dichotomy doesn't determine that.
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Offline *Nosferatu*

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2007, 02:58:25 AM »
It also find that a lot of players build there lists AROUND doctrines and not vice versa. As Ailaros put it earlier, players will pick all the doctrines, and say this and that to try and justify it.

Others would have what they want, then look at the doctrines and say "Perfect, that's what I need," in order to better represent their army. Even if it's only one doctrine, i.e. Mechanized.

Offline Garak

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2007, 02:29:31 PM »
I usually make my list and then throw in the doctrines (and add the restricted stuff). In my last fight I used ID and it saved my ass 'cause it allowed my IG to regroup the next turn and rapid fire the damn SM. I also use Conscripts and Independat Commissars....for some reason the enemy keeps going after them, fine by me. Those guys managed to kill kroot, shoot the frak out orks and make a SM player waste a few shooting at them instead of taking the damned table quarter. And in Cities of Death I tend to take Carapace Armor and Camelioline.....it's hilarious when a SM starts cursing that there is no point in shooting you OR charging you. Mechanized infantry has also saved my hide in a objective capturing mission....I was first there and wouldn't budge.

I admit that I tend to try out various doctrines and geaar in each battle but since my army has some rag-tag elements, the fluff works as well....as long as I don't overdo it...like say sticking Valhallans and Tallarn in the same army. Can u imagine the fight they would have over the heat control units on the troops ships?

Mostly I like the doctrines because u can have quirky armies and I like quirky/experimental/fluffy armies more than I do the competitive ones. That being said, I dread to think what will happen in the next IG codex. When is that supposed to appear at any rate?
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Offline Dr_Ruminahui

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2007, 04:53:55 PM »
I must admit that I felt slightly dirty using close order drill in my last battle report (now up in that board) - and fielding Gaunt as well didn't help.  I look forward to when I've finished my roughriders and removed any further temptations to fill that last doctrine slot with something strategically viable. 8)

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Offline Ailaros

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2007, 05:02:39 PM »
I must admit that I felt slightly dirty using close order drill in my last battle report

Heh

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Convicts: "beslubber you!"

Moments later, the constripts organize themselves in close order drill and use highly disciplined, coordinated strikes against the enemy in hand to hand


vanilla more fluffy than doctrined list? or vice versa?

vanilla more fluffy. If everyone takes the same 3 doctrines, then everyone's fluff is going to be 60% the same as everyone else's (as you need to have the fluff for the doctrines).

Now, obviously this isn't always the case, like people who take the one doctrine they really want and then buy back their units, but it is often the case. Being vanilla means that you aren't bound to the fluff for the doctrines you take.

I mean, I'd like to see some doctrineless forces that DON'T have a long tradition of giving hours of practice in close order combat in their fluff.

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Offline *Nosferatu*

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2007, 05:17:35 PM »
I mean, I'd like to see some doctrineless forces that DON'T have a long tradition of giving hours of practice in close order combat in their fluff.

Or force that DON'T give grav chutes to their Hardened, crack, experienced, and elite Veterans to go on suicide runs.

Offline Dr_Ruminahui

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2007, 06:10:33 PM »
Well, that's something I have problems with, doctrine list or not - but with storm troopers.  Mine are wiped out to the man pretty much every single battle.  Makes you wonder where they get all those BS 4 guardsmen.

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Offline Sheepz

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2007, 10:34:31 AM »
I often play vanilla for the nostalgia. Lets me take lists I used to take before I heavily themed my list to Light Infantry. Every now and again it's great to throw in a the odd Leman Russ, Ratling Squad, stupid amounts of Commissars etc. The entire reason I play doctrines is for fluff, the entire reason I'd play without them is to take variety and restricted troops. My fighting style doesn't change much.

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Re: Who's gone vanilla? (Playing without doctrines)
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2007, 11:17:57 AM »
Quote
Or force that DON'T give grav chutes to their Hardened, crack, experienced, and elite Veterans to go on suicide runs.
Unfortunately I'm guilty here. Of course that is until I get enough $$$ to field my proper mech force and swap out Drop Troops for Abhuman and ID for Afreil Strain. Till then the ammount of plastic I have tends to limit my lists. Of course, it does help one learn to get creative with that plastic in a hurry.

Quote
Congradulations, son - you are now ballistic skill 4!  Report immediately for drop training..."

"Ah man... I knew I should have deliberately missed that last shot... now I'm guaranteed to die next time we see combat!"
It's not so much the BS as the abbility to min/max a suicide unit. Uhm, sents, sws, storm troops etc. They all die just as nicely BS or no. The BS does make me feel all fuzzy though.

As for would I ever play a line army? Never. I'll insist on making the most impractical lists I can find. I'll not be happy till I butcher every doctrine or unit choice ever. Priest with Stormies? Haha! fun times.
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