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Offline fremen

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Fixin' eldar codex
« on: March 24, 2014, 05:43:01 PM »
So, it's been almost a year since we got the new codex, it's very good book, units are great, but lots of missed opportunities imo. Some units are just no brainer, some are quite good but very situational and very few are utter crap. I hate being looked down as an "oh, the eldar guy, so much cheese" just because I play this army(doesn't matter I started in the middle of 5th edition when eldar were pretty bad) so i made a bunch of house rules in order to balance some issues with our codex.

I didn't write all the rules and wargear units have, just added what I think they should have and fixed the price accordingly.

Lets start from beginning

HQ

Eldrad: 220 pts

added rules:
master of faith: can re-roll any rolls for psychic power

Prince Yriel: 120 pts

Illic Nightspear: 160

added rules:
shred(ranged attacks only)
webway portal: units arriving from reserves can opt to come through webway portal. If webway portal has not been deployed, units do not roll for reserves. If portal carrier has been removed as casualty, unit cannot enter battlefield and is counted as destroyed.

Asurmen: pts stays the same

Jain Zar: 220 pts

added rules:
banshee phoenix: one unit of howling banshees count as scoring.
furious charge
Mask of Jain Zar: Ignores overwatch, in addition, if she makes successful assault, unit must take ld test on 4D6. If the test is failed, unit is pinned.

Karandras: 240 pts

added rules:
scorpion phoenix: one unit of striking scorpions count as scoring.
lying in wait: instead of placing Karandras during deployment, you can choose 1 terrain piece where he is. Write down his location. Roll for reserves as normal, when he becomes available, you can put him in that terrain piece. If you can't fit him there, he arrives from your table edge as normal. He can not assault the same turn he arrives from reserves.

Fuegan: 230 pts

added rules:
dragon phoenix: one unit of fire dragons count as scoring.

Baharroth: 205 pts

added rules:
swooping hawks phoenix: one unit of swooping hawks count as scoring.
warlord trait: Seer of the shifting vector

Maugan' Ra: 205

Added rules:
dark reaper phoenix: one unit of dark reapers count as scoring.
maugator: str 6 ap 4 heavy 6, rending, pining, ignores cover


Avatar of khaine: pts stay the same
added rules:
can buy exarch power "battle fortune" - 20 pts

Eldar seers

Seer council:
you can take one farseer and 2 seers as a single HQ choice

farseer profile: the same

seer profile: 80 pts

WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W2 I5 A1 LD9 SV-

psychic mastery 2

wargear:
rune armor
withcblade(can replace with singing spear for 5 pts)

can take runes of witnessing

can roll on runes of faith and divination tables

Warlock council: 40 pts per member
profile stays the same, but has LD9

spiritseer: stays the same.


Troops:

dire avengers: 14 pts
added wargear: dire avengers have shuriken pistol and a close combat weapon.

guardians defenders: pts the same
can excahnge shuriken catapult for guardian lasblaster

guardian lasblaster: S3 AP5 assault 2 range 24 (we have dire avenger shuriken catapult which is better in range than guardian catapult and swooping hawks lasblaster which is better in rate of fire than guardian's equivalent, I think it's fair)
EML platform price: 25 pts

storm guardians: pts stay the same
power weapon upgrade: 5 pts per model
storm guardian chainsword: AP 6
A unit of 20 can take 4 special weapons(flamers/fusion guns)

guardian jetbike: 18 pts per model
guardian jetbikes can re-roll their move in assault phase.

Rangers: 10 pts per model
all rules the same

can upgrade to pathfinders: 12 pts

added rules:
WS4 BS5 S3 T3 W1 A1 I5 LD9 SV5+
webway portal: entire unit can take webway portal upgrade for 40 pts, as long as a snigle model of that unit is alive, unit can place webway portal.


DEDICATED TRANSPORT:

Wave serpent: 105 pts

added rules:
serpent shield: str 4 ap- range 18 heavy D6+1, pinning, ignores cover, concussive
All penetrating hits are downgraded to glancing hits on 2+. If shield is fired, penetrating hits are downgraded to glancing on 4+
EML upgrade: 10 pts

Falcon: 115 pts

added rules:
EML upgrade 10 pts
can take flakk missile: 5 pts

Elite

fire dragons: stay same

howling banshees: 17 pts
added rules:
furious charge
howling banshee mask: enemy gets -1WS and -1I, ignores overwatch, unit successfully charged by howling banshees takes leadership test on 3D6, if the test is failed, unit is pinned.
acrobatic: unit may assault after running.

striking scorpions: stay same

added rules: scorpion chainsword: AP 5(if kroot can have it, than why not)

harlequins: I don't want to go there.  :D

wraithguard: 35 pts
any number of wraithguard can exchange their wraithcannon with D-scythe for 10 pts.

wraithblades: 35 pts
any number of wraithblades can exchange their wraithswords with wraith axes and forceshield for 5 pts

Fast attack:

swooping hawks: 18 pts

added rules:
Skyfall: When deep striking, unit that consists only of swooping hawks can attack enemy flyers. If they choose to do so, do not drop swooping hawks grenade pack, instead, place them within 1'' of flyer that is being assaulted and rol D6. If swooping hawks squad consists of six or more models, roll 2D6 and pick highest result. Swooping hawks squad makes that many hits with haywire grenades on that flyer.

warp spiders: 20 pts

shining spears: pts stay same

added rules: they ignore terrain for assault purposes.

Vyper jetbike: pts stay same
unit size: 1-3
changed profile from "fast skimmer" to "eldar jetbike"
WS4 BS4 S3 T5 A1 W2 I5 LD8 SV 3+
for each 5 guardian jetibkes you can take vyper in their squad

Crimson hunter: pts stay same

added rules:
can take upgrades form eldar vehicle upgrades
agile: adds 1 to jink save

hemlock

180 pts

BS4 F11/S11/R10
can take upgrades from eldar vehicle upgrades
in 12'' around hemlock, all enemy units lose ATSKNF, stubborn and fearless

HS

dark reapers: stay same

added rules: can take flakk missile (on top of starshot missile) for 5 pts

Vaul's wrath battery: stays same

fire prism: stays same

nightspinner: stays same

warwlakers: stay same

EML price: 10 pts
can upgrade EML to flakk for 5 pts.

Wraithlord: stays same

wraithknight: 220 pts

ghost glaive: 10 pts

scatter shield: 20 pts:

can take 2 of the following:
scatter laser: pts stay same
shuriken cannon: pts stay same
star cannon: pts stay same

can take
2 wraithcannons: 30 pts

or

sunncannon: 50 pts


runes of witnessing: can re-roll single roll on psychic powers table, in addition, can re-roll single failed psychic test. - 5 pts
runes of warding: Model adds +1 to his deny the witch rolls, all friendly units 12'' around bearer add +1 to their deny the witch rolls - 10 pts

All thoughts are welcome, do you like it, would you change anything?
I like how it represents eldar in a different way, pretty much everything is more expensive and imo that fits an elite army like eldar. Units have more options what to do, they become better at their specific roles, but price increase follows their better performance.
And we got rid of that serpent shield, so no more yelling cheese from our opponents.
I am also interested in non eldar players opinions, would they prefer to face this army or the army from the original codex?
This is just something I'd like to propose to my friends, an eldar codex what I hopped it would be.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 08:56:31 AM by Irisado »

Offline Irisado

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Re: Fixin' eldar codex
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2014, 06:49:56 PM »
Have you play tested any of this?  I'm curious, because a lot of it just looks unnecessarily complicated, or just not needed.  For a codex that's a vast improvement on its predecessor, I'm really not sure why you wanted to make so many changes, other than you thought that it might look good on paper.  On the battlefield, I just can't see many of those rules making things better, in fact I'd argue that a number of them make the units you've given them to either worse or too rules heavy, and thus overly complicated as a result.

The whole idea of making Phoenix Lords confer scoring to their Aspect Warrior units comes up a lot.  It was discussed extensively during the Eldar redux (take a look through the threads in the Eldar project board), and was always contentious.  I saw more merit for it under the old missions system, but now that you have fast attack and heavy support potentially being able to score, I think that there's less need for it.  The main problem was always how do you determine which Aspect unit is scoring if you have multiples of the same Aspect?  The one which the Phoenix Lord joins?  What happens if (s)he leaves that unit and joins another Aspect of the same type?  Is scoring conferred?  We found this very difficult to resolve during the redux.

I think that Jain Zar's rule you've come up with has the potential to be overpowered.  Why 4D6?  Why not just 3?  Also, why such massive penalties?  It seems way too good.

Karandras' rule addition could be quite amusing, but ultimately not necessary.

I don't see the point of a Seer Council.  They're not meant to be better than regular Warlocks, so why add them at all?

I remain opposed to equipping Guardians with Lasblasters.  It's an Aspect only weapon, so shouldn't be used by Guardians.  Before someone mentions Rogue Trader and Second Edition, that was Lasguns back then, a different gun altogether since third edition, so there isn't precedent for this change.  The way we (eventually) agreed to solve the issue of Guardians and the disconnect between the weapon platform and their Shuriken Catapults in terms of range was to extend the Catapult's range to eighteen inches.

Now, that has a knock on effect to Dire Avengers, which isn't overly easy to resolve, so from the point of view of game mechanics the Lasblaster option is easier, but Guardians then will effectively become objective campers.  Some players think that this is the way in which they should be used and will like it, others will not.  I fall into the second camp, but it has been play testing by quite a few over the years, and shouldn't cause a problem from a balance point of view.  You'd need to check for unexpected surprises with the sixth edition rules set though.

Jetbikes are arguably our most powerful troops unit in sixth, so why boost them further?

Pathfinders with enhanced Ranger stats are not new.  I'm ambivalent about that change to be honest.  You'd have to playtest that webway rule though.  I can see potential abuses arising from that.

The Wave Serpent rules are just confusing.  Yes, the shield's ranged fire is too effective, but why the change to heavy?  Why such a cut in range (it has always had a long range, go back to Epic Space Marine 2 and look at the rules there if you have access to them)?  Also, why would it have a shield effect of any kind when it's just fired off its shield?  That makes no sense to me.

The rules for Banshees are more in keeping with how Jain Zar ought to work, but I still think that you need to play test that whole pinning rule.  Combined with everything else, I think that it may go too far.  Also, the rule about assaulting after running, I assume that this does not override the rules about disembarking from a transport?  It shouldn't, based on your wording, but I'd like to confirm this.

I don't think that Wraith units need any changes.  The same applies to the chainsword changes you've listed for Striking Scorpions and Storm Guardians.

Swooping Hawks don't need any complicated and awkwardly worded rules like the one you've proposed.  I recommend leaving them as they are.

The concept of the Vyper being a two seater Jetbike was scrapped years ago when GW changed the model's design.  I see no need to re-invent the wheel.  Again, just leave it as it is.

The change to the Hemlock looks too good to me.  It shouldn't override all those special rules.

The rest looks broadly okay.

My major problem with this though is that you haven't justified the changes.  To me, it seems like you decided to change things because you think that it looks good.  That's not a good way to go about altering a codex in my experience.  You can see just how extensively issues were debated in the old redux project to see how difficult it is to make changes without having unintended consequences.  If you want to make a compelling case, therefore, to justify your revisions, I'd advocated carrying out substantial play testing, and reporting your findings.

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Offline fremen

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Re: Fixin' eldar codex
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2014, 07:25:47 PM »
My major problem with this though is that you haven't justified the changes.  To me, it seems like you decided to change things because you think that it looks good.http://www.40konline.com/Themes/Astonished_201/images/bbc/spoiler.gif

It took me over hour and half to write this down, my English is not very good and I spend much time refining my posts and searching in online dictionaries just to make it understandable(also, praise the Emperor for the spell check on this forum ;D).
I wanted elaborate in detail but I was exhausted, and I really don't have all night to do it. I hope I'll find more time tomorrow for that.

Offline Irisado

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Re: Fixin' eldar codex
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2014, 07:31:24 PM »
If you ever need help with English, then I used to teach English as a foreign language in a past life, so you only need to ask ;).  Not that you have any problems with your use of English on the whole.  I understand your posts without difficulty :).

What you can also do is put your thoughts into Notepad (don't use Word, it doesn't mix well with the code used in forum posts), and then copy and paste to save time when you're on the forum itself.

Anyway, I look forward to reading your reasons at a later point during the week.  I also want to be constructively critical.  If you post ideas that I think are workable I will say so, even if I don't like them myself (see my comments about Lasblasters as an example).
« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 07:34:52 PM by Irisado »
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Fixin' eldar codex
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2014, 08:21:16 PM »
You are right in that you made everything more expensive, but you made in error in how much more things should be.  Often times you added a few points for a rule that is worth a lot more than that.

Eldrad:  15 points more for a psyker of the level of Eldrad?  Price this at 50 points and maybe it would be alright, but hard to justify unless he were ML3

Yriel:  No, he is fine at his current point cost.

Illic:  10 point increase per rule you are adding?  The Webway portal should have the price taken from the Dark Eldar, which is 25pts more than you are costing it.  Add in shred and Illic should be closer to around 200.

Jain Zar:  With those abilities, should be closer to 300pts

Karandras:  Price him at 280 and you got a deal.

Maugan Ra:  If it is an extra 10 points to have a unit of aspect warriors count as scoring, then the increase to his gun should increase his cost by a further 15 to 20 points.

Warlocks:  An increase to LD9 for a psyker should be more expensive than just 5 points.  15 minimum as Marines pay 10pts for a vet sarge who isn't a psyker.

Dire Avengers:  Shuriken Pistol and CCW would have them at 15pts a model as they are traditionally 1 point per weapon.

Guardian Lasblaster:  So you want to give the Guardians the Lasblaster from the Hawks.  If this is being included it would not be the same quality as the one the hawks get.  Either Assault 1 or 18" range.

Storm Guardians:  Power swords are always 15pts, at best make it 10pts to put them on par with Guard.  No reason to change how the chainsword works. 

Jetbikes:  1 point for that much of a change?  That alone is worth 10.

Rangers:  Fine as they are.  Pathfinders are appropriately costed for what they do now.  If you wanted to increase BS, it should be +15pts per model.

Wave Serpent:  Ditch the additional rules, serpent shield in offensive form drops to st5.

Banshees:  The negatives to weapon skill and initiative are enough of a change.  Being immune to overwatch as well as pinning a unit is too much.  With those rules in place they should be closer to 25 or 30 points.  Acrobatic would make that an easy 30 points.

Scorpion chainsword:  Kroot have AP 5 because Kroot do not have Power Armour.  Give them AP5, increase their points to 20.

Wraithblades:  4++ save on a T6 model for 5pts?  Try 10.

Hawks:  20 points per model, and 1 attack per model on the deep striking, hitting on a 5+.

Warp Spiders:  Don't need to change price.

Shining Spears:  Useless rule, they already have skilled rider.

Vyper:  It's an armoured vehicle, the change makes no sense.

Crimson Hunter:  It is just getting Agile for the same points cost?  To which it can add a Holofield for an additional +1?  Try a 25pts increase because you can add holofields.

Hemlock:  Taking away ATSKNF has no justification in the fluff at all.  Having that ability in addition to being able to cast Terrify would put the cost of this unit at 200pts.

EML / Reapers:  Flakk missiles cost other armies 10pts.

Wraithknight:  No.  There is no reason for this unit to be cheaper.  Most people would agree that it should be more expensive.  If you are charging for the Heavy Wraithcannons, then leave it at its base value and put the additional cost on top of that.
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Re: Fixin' eldar codex
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2014, 07:26:41 AM »
I fail to understand the need for the vast majority of these changes. The Eldar codex as a whole is very well balanced, with few obviously poor choices.

The only no-brainer in the codex is the Wave Serpent, which is definitely overpowered, or at least has the potential to be when spammed.
This could easily be fixed by making it d6 S5 shots or something similarly powered so that you actually have to think before you decide to shoot it (currently you should shoot it every turn), and you actually have to think before you decide what to shoot it at (currently you can shoot it at pretty much anything short of heavy Armour).

The only obviously horrible unit is Banshees. They could be fixed by giving them back their old banshee masks, and allowing them to ignore overwatch. Allowing them to assault out of a transport would probably be too much, but I quite like allowing them to assault after a run.

The only other tweaks I might be tempted to make is to reduce the points costs on the Phoenix Lords (and Illic) by roughly 10%, but leave the rules as is.

The grand sweep of changes you suggest are unnecessary, overcomplicated and would make the codex totally overpowered.

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Re: Fixin' eldar codex
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2014, 08:23:16 AM »
Not that you have any problems with your use of English on the whole.  I understand your posts without difficulty :).


You should see draft versions of my posts, it's strangely resembles orkish ;D. (makes me wonder if I'm playing the right army)

Ok, back to the topic. I will go through units and address changes both you and Grand Master Lomandalis propossed.


Eldrad I was looking at Tigurus for reference, he is way cheaper than Eldrad, yet his buffing ability is better, the difference is in Eldrad having better ++ save, being better ML and having the ability to restore warp charge.
Tigurus on the other hand can almost guaranty to get desired power(read as, you can build army around desired power, which is very important), has access to all disciplines including divination, which normal librarians do not get, and has a handy re-roll on psychic test.
Perhaps 15 more for Eldrad is not enough price increase, but I feel 50 pts is way to much.

Yriel Ok, I admit, when I broke him down to basic autarch cost and started strapping on wargear he has, I was kinda generous with cost of his Eye of Wrath. He got nerfed from the last codex, his singing spear not as usefull and his ++ save in cc got worse, and problem is he is a T3 cc model. I am really not sure of him, but with his low cost he would at least intrigue people to take him over regular autarch.

Illic Sorry about that, 10 pts increase was just for shred on his sniper, I forgot to add cost for webway portal, I listed it in new pathfinders entry, I priced it 40 pts for them.

Now, I feel most Phoenix lords are way overpriced,(there is a reason phoenix lords are never taken in competitive lists, hell, none of our special characters are, while other armies (competitive, of course) can be build around their special characters)  they should give more for their point cost so I included the ability to make one unit of their aspect scoring in their base price. Simply to make them more attractive. And besides, it's a nice addition at best, not great or game changing, specially since in 6th edition troops are not that important any more. 
I haven't thought about how to determine which squad is scoring if multiple squads of the same aspects are present, but a rather simple way comes to my mind, you can simply point it with a finger and say "they count as scoring" ;D
I'll have to think about it a bit more.


Jain Zar Well, she already has that modifiers for WS and I, check her entry, it's not something I made up. Ignoring overwatch is something banshees should do(at least I feel so, others may disagree), no reason not to allow their phoenix lord the same.
And the LD test, you maybe didn't notice I didn't give banshees or her grenades. It basically has the same function as grenades, only it's not certain and doesn't work on all units. (check going to ground in the rulebook, how units that have gone to ground(equivalent of being pinned) behave when assaulted. It's only in assault phase and only if charge was successful, I don't see it as being overpowered. I wanted to give regular banshees  3D6 LD test, so I find it only appropriate to give their phoenix lord 4D6 test.
I mean, how much would you pay for grenades on Jain Zar? Actually a crappy version of grenades because it doesn't work on fearless/bikes/walkers/MCs and other units that can't be pinned.
On acrobatics, I simply don't see it being useful as it is now, and of course, I never thought they should be able to charge out of transport.

Karandras So, you would price his ability to hide in terrain 50 pts? It's really not that good, since he can't charge when he is available, and some players will still want to take him in squad with other units and there is no reason for him to be more expansive for a lone deep striking that can be countered by a proper deployment. Plus, there's a chance he will not be available before turn 4. It's simply a fun rule, not game changing or anything.

Maugan Ra Actually, a price hike was only for his gun, as said earlier, all lords got the ability to make one of their aspects scoring for free.

Warlocks Well, 50 pts, compare it to spirit seer. For 20 pts more you get ability to change FOC with wraithguard, spirit mark, access to telepathy and one wound more. 40-45 top is price range I would go.

Dire avengers True, point taken, (there's of course a paradox of grey hunters costing less than regular marines and having similar ability which makes them way better, but I think that will be changed). I feel they are like general elite infantry and the addition of counter charge rule on them makes me want to push them a bit towards cc.

Guardian defenders I don't think I made myself clear. In 6th edition I mostly used guardians as a poor's man dire avengers(or sometimes in large blobs of 20), in wave serpents as opposed to objective campers they were in 5th. In that role, I'd rather have them with their current shuriken catapults than lasblasters, bladestorm is just too good. With the ability to have lasblasters(watch out, there would be a distinction between guardian lasblaster(assault 2) and swooping hawk lasblaster(assault 3),similar to difference between dire avenger catapult and guardian catapult.) they would become good objective campers, but that's only one way to use them. It gives more options and flexibility.
In short, I wouldn't call lasblasters better than shuriken catapults, simply different, they change battlefield roles.

Storm guardians power weapons in guard codex are for sergeants and commissars, characters with multiple attacks, and they cost 10.
I feel current price on storm guardians is way to high. Not sure of this.

Jetbikes Well, I thought since they don't benefit from battle focus, let's give them something similar.
But on the other hand, it would only make them better, so improving other troop choices in order to make them more attractive is kinda pointless.
You are both right, they should stay as they are.

Rangers and Pathfinders Point of their price decrease is making them more attractive. Simple as that. We all know what our best troops are, if there' s something much cheaper, people might be inclined to take more of it. There is a reason why there are good all jetbike armies and no all ranger/pathfinder armies. Webway portal is also a way to add "sort of" mobility to otherwise static list.

Wave serpent Now, the most ridiculous unit in the codex, to have a troop transport that outclasses every other tank we have except fire prism against AV 14. When I first saw range 60'' on serpent shield, I thought it was a typo and it was supposed to be 6'' I imagined serpent shield as a prior to charge weapon, something that softens enemy unit. There is a mention in IA 11 about serpent shield, how it stuns enemy units while disembarking aspect warriors prepare to assault, and I would like it in that role.
I agree that the rule I added about turning penetrating hits to glancing on 4+ is excessive, I guess I wanted a trade off of some sort because serpent lost his range and firepower, so I wanted to boost his defense a bit.
Oh, and I thought it already is a heavy weapon, doesn't make any difference if it's assault weapon since it's only on a vehicle I guess.

Howling banshees Acrobatics and pinning on banshees was already discussed on Jain Zar. I don't know why you price ignores overwatch so high, there's a cheep vehicle upgrade in chaos armory that does exactly the same on multiple units. And -1WS and -1I is like having a "mini Jain Zar mask", a regular banshee mask. It could be worded like "unit that consists only of howling banshees ignore overwatch" to prevent people from sticking autarch with mask into a unit and charging in.
I admit I went a bit overboard with furious charge.

Striking scorpions Well, I thought it's kinda appropriate to give them better AP than that of storm guardians, but it's not necessary.

Wraithblades In codex as it is, there is no price for replacing wraith swords with axes and shields. I priced both standard wraithguard and wraithblades a bit higher because the ability to mix weapons in the same squad, and added cost replacing weapons. Again, in that configuration they might see more table.

Swooping hawks I'm fine with that, large squads are now more appealing than min 6 man units used for yoyo with grenades.

Shining spears Not useless, they ignore terrain for assault purposes, meaning, no penalty for charging into cover. Or just give them grenades.

Vyper And I thought I was so inventive when I thought of the concept of a 2 wound jet bike, hahaha. The problem with vyper is he is outclassed by other fast attack choices we have. The change is made to improve the internal balance of the codex.

Crimson hunter I compared it to a nightwing for a price refernce. In my opinion nightwing is much better fighter than crimson hunter, and yet, it's cheaper. I wouldn't increase his cost at all.

Hemlock Well, hemlock is described as a weapon of nightmare, the ultimate war crime by standards of Eldar. I thought rules should, at least in a way, represent it in battle. But I admit, I just made him in a hurry, it requires more thinking. And as with everything else, he needs to be good so the idea of taking him over crimson hunter would not be dismissed immediately.

Dark reapers True, 10 pts it is.

If I missed something, sorry, I will add later, my head is about to explode!


Edit: What I wanted to achieve with this changes. Imagine you are going to a tournament and there is a million dollar award for a winner so you are strongly motivated to make as strong list as possible. Let's say you can take 400 pts in fast attack. What will you take? Of course, as much warp spiders as possible. Why? because they are one of the most versatile units in the codex and can deal with infantry, vehicles and to a some degree with flyers. Sure, vypers are ok, hawks are very good, crimson hunter has it's uses, but spiders simply outclass them all.
I wanted to make changes that will make you think about what will you take. To bring all units on pair with our best units. And fix their price accordingly. The other way to achieve this would be to nerf some units, like serpents, so they stop being auto include.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 09:13:52 AM by fremen »

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Re: Fixin' eldar codex
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2014, 09:10:25 AM »
I think that you're now starting to see some of the problems with devising rules without play testing to see how well they work before you publish them ;).

Regarding Jain Zar, I've taken out the current rules from your first post, as if you're not changing something, there's no need to mention the existing rules ;).  I think that ignoring overwatch in combination with her existing rules is good enough without adding other bonuses to her and the Banshees.  The big problem that Banshees have is that they are so very vulnerable to being gunned down when trying to assault.  Take away overwatch from their intended target unit, and they suddenly become much more of a threat.  I'd really recommend taking nine Howling Banshees and Jain Zar, and play testing them with just those rules first before you consider adding anything else that you've thought about.

Phoenix Lords in general are just too expensive.  Instead of trying to tinker with their rules, wouldn't it be simpler just to lower the cost a bit?  That would solve the problem in my opinion.  By all means try to work on the scoring rule if you think that would help.  Have a look at the first post in this thread, specifically the Phoenix Lord summary, as it may be of some help.  You can take a look at the discussion on this issue later in the same thread if you wish.

The problem with using competitive as a base for rule changes is that it's so subjective.  Someone could play competitively in what many would call a casual environment using a balanced, rather than a competitive list, so it becomes quite confusing as to what these terms actually mean.  Competitive means different things to different people.  I like to win against my friends if I can, so in that way I'm competitive, but I field balanced lists, and never spam Wave Serpents, so does that make me uncompetitive?  I've never thought that trying to justify changes on the grounds of competitiveness is a very effective way to achieve anything, so I'd recommend thinking about it in a different way.

For example, a better argument is the one which you make about the Vyper being outclassed by other fast attack choices.  This is an internal balance problem, I agree, but my only caveat is that is the Vyper comparatively weak enough to warrant major changes to the rules, or would a cost adjustment be sufficient to fix the problem?

Finally, on Guardians, they're not meant to be objective campers.  That's what Rangers (and in Big Guns Never Tire Dark Reapers and War Walkers are for).  If you want to make the change, then it's probably not going to make a huge amount of difference from the point of view of balance, but play test it to be sure.  Full size squads with Lasblasters and weapons platforms that can sit back in your deployment zone may actually prove to be quite nasty when combined with certain other powerful units in the Eldar codex (think Wave Serpent spam).  I'd advocate leaving Guardians alone, but it's up to you.
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