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Offline Azash76

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2011, 01:24:03 PM »
Actually if your army revolves around a suicide bomb sternguard drop pod putting Lysander in there his a hell of allot more effective than the obligatory librarian.

1. He gives the whole squad much needed survivability from shots as you can allocate wounds to him in shooting. His stats are obvious in this regard so I'm not going to belabor that.

2. Sternguard do not hold up to assault its essentially saying "im going to kill one of your units and lose to of mine but your really going to hate that i killed your best unit". You put Lysander and a PF in that squad and they stand a good chance of getting through and assault. Given Lysander's 40mm base you can stick him out front and let him take the brunt of the melee blows then when you swing back you have some good CC ability.

3. The unit is stubborn w/ LD 10 so barring really bad rolling they are not going to break from Melee that they lose (good chance of that happening)  making them an even more annoying thorn in your opponents side which gives the rest of your army additional support for at least one more round or another round of your opponents assets being diverted. Either way its a plus.

Offline Idaho

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2011, 02:33:16 PM »
Quote
Edit: Sorry to stray off topic, on Marneus, he is a good character, and fight most other characters well.  He is fighty to a degree, but is somewhat wasted points.  If you are fighting monstrous creatures then he is ok, but vs normal troops Titanic Might is a bit wasted.
That's exactly it, though -- on anything smaller than a Talos or possibly Carnifex, Titanic Might is more or less redundant, so short of fighting Eldar (either variety) or Tyranids, he's ultimately a double-fist Chapter Master with gimmicky shooting and some cheerleader stuff.

I disagree. You roll 6 dice to hit against a Chaos Marine squad (or whatever) and roll a nice average 4 hits. How many times have any of us rolled 4 dice and 1 dice at least come up a "one" blinking up at you? Killing 4 Ork Nobz is better than 3 right?

And wounding a Carnifex requires the same dice roll score as any infantry model, since they only have Toughness 6.

His re-rolling wounds isn't only great at reducing bad luck ruining an assault, it grants you flexibility to choose between striking at a higher than average initiative when needed and still be likely to get some kills, and it makes his shooting attack VERY useful.

Calgar is a juggernaught who can consistently put wounds on opponents every turn and is hard for opponents to remove. He can also be used decisively, particularly if you get him into assault where he can really turn people apart.

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2011, 05:02:48 PM »
Ah cute. The Pod Bomb. Nobody has thought of *that* before, and nobody decided to use Logan, Arjac, and a unit of split-firing Relentless Long Fangs instead...you know, because having range matters if you are committing *that* many points to a semisuicidal alphastrike (it's not great either but is still "better" than what you suggest, At the bare minimum, for 5 Sternguard, Lysander, and a Fist, 3 or so Combiweapons, that's the cost of a full Assault Terminator Squad. For...3 melta shots on turn 1 that might not even hit their intended target because the opponent went first, has no lynchpin targets, can reliably reserve, or can castle/gunline because you spent so much on...3 Meltaguns.

For the record, suppose Tyranids or Dark Eldar or even the maligned Footdar decide to assault. Your Fists won't make a difference and you know why? All three of these armies not only have a proper distribution between squishy and harder targets, but all have weight of fire: Having a woundsoaker only really matters when you make one save at a time. When every model has to save...and you have to do it again and again...be it from Shoota or Splinter Cannon, Glanded/Toxined *Termagants* or being tagged with Doom, you will be making saves, and your squad will fall even if Lysander lives. Rather than slowing your enemy down, you only hasten your demise. And it's not like one cannot coordinate an MSU multiassault where Lysander has to allocate his attacks to a Wych unit, leaving the Agonizer Succubus to do the bulk of the killing...(or any other similar scenario where Lysander's 200-point beatstick may hurt 10 points of model).

I tackled a Draigostar in two phases using my Boyz...what makes you think Lysander has a better chance?

Offline Admiral Dred

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2011, 07:30:28 PM »
Ah cute. The Pod Bomb. Nobody has thought of *that* before,


Ok, so because a tactic has been used before makes it irrelevant?  Seriously?  Why doesn't the military throw out stealth tactics because *that* has been used before...

Lots of people use it, some have success some don't.  Don't trick yourself into thinking you are taking the higher road by ignoring a tried and reasonably successful tactic.   All of the things Azash said are true and valid and I agree.

And then you reason by saying that that my reasoning behind "melee monster heroes" is bad.  Ok.  Great point, because having a melee monster is a bad thing....   
And that Lysander offers no support.  Ummm, army-wide stubborn, bolster defenses, that rule called bolter drill...  You take all of Lysanders abilities away like they are nothing and then blabber on about him being solely a beatstick. And I like I care, because Lysander is one hell of a beatstick, one of THE toughest characters in the game.   And about your comment on Sternguard squad with Termies, you boil their squad down to .... 3 meltaguns...

I cant believe it!  First of all you bury all the tried and true tactics like they are nothing and you hate them, then your "better then what you suggest" features the blandest way of using sternguard possible!  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And for the record, your "comparison" includes a mandatory HQ, so its barely valid. 

I commented earlier that the unit can take down a nightbringer in a single turn.  Its not that easy to get that fire power.  And if you fought that with your ever so precious termies they would die pitifully, as their amazing invul gets ripped through and their greatness dissolves into 10 orks trying to punch down a god.  Or you can use my idea and slaughter the 400 pt+ model without breaking a sweat.  That power is hard to come by, and it can be put to use on many things.

It comes down to his:  Lysander is a strong model, capable of taking anything in the game and giving it a run for its money.  He meshes well with 3 squads (including assault termies if you read my entire post, so you can stuff your singular insult on my sternguard idea), he packs some support abilites, and he has stats worthy of only a Space Marine.  Not to mention he cracks open tanks like nothing.

And to mirror your anecdote : My Ghazghkull killed two Land Raiders in one turn, that doesn't mean I laugh and point whenever my opponent is packing 2 land raiders.  And you know what makes me feel that Lysander will do any better?  Because before your boyz get to charge there gonna receive 20 twin-linked bolter shots wounding on 2+, thats why.

@Idaho

I agree, and your point about the shooting attack is duly noted.  He is good, I just cant find a great use for him. 

@Azash

Agreed on all 3 points.
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2011, 09:32:01 PM »
Hey there Dred:

Quote from: Admiral Dred
Ok, so because a tactic has been used before makes it irrelevant?  Seriously?  Why doesn't the military throw out stealth tactics because *that* has been used before...
False analogy/strawman. I mentioned the issues with committing too many points to an unreliable alphastrike with actual counters behind it that threatens...one target on its initial drop. I mentioned said counters in turn. This is not about taking the high road, being condescending, attacking your character, or any other slight that would warrant a string of '!'s. This is about calling a bad plan for what it is.

Quote from: Admiral Dred
And then you reason by saying that that my reasoning behind "melee monster heroes" is bad.  Ok.  Great point, because having a melee monster is a bad thing....
It's a matter of opportunity cost. Your deployment puts him on foot. He does not have Fleet, Jump Packs, a Bike, a transport...most anything to make him able to actually bring his melee monstrousness to bear. Once you drop down and slag something, his ability to support is limited to killing whatever the opponent sets forth before him...if your opponent even plays by those rules. What if the mission doesn't favor you? (Oh man...try going first in Dawn of War against a mech Guard player). Or what if you can't even Deep Strike anywhere *near* an ideal target?

Quote from: Admiral Dred
And that Lysander offers no support.  Ummm, army-wide stubborn, bolster defenses, that rule called bolter drill...  You take all of Lysanders abilities away like they are nothing and then blabber on about him being solely a beatstick. And I like I care, because Lysander is one hell of a beatstick, one of THE toughest characters in the game.   And about your comment on Sternguard squad with Termies, you boil their squad down to .... 3 meltaguns...
-Stubborn benefits armies with large numbers that expect to lose melees to such a degree that without it, they would be pasted outright before they could reliably attrition their target down. For example, if you are playing an Imperial Guard list where you want to take several blobs with 20-30 Guardsmen, each unit hiding 3-4 hidden Power Weapons (and possibly having Priest support), then yes, Stubborn is an advantage if only to allow weight of numbers and attacks to kill. You are not Guard. You Know No Fear, you lack the numbers, and you *shoot* better than you actually assault by default. If you lose and flee, should you be caught you...take some No Retreat wounds you'll probably save anyway; thus if you want to run an assault army with Marines, should you lose a combat by a significant degree that Stubborn would make a notable difference, chances are what you just faced will kill you anyway. Therefore Stubborn itself isn't a notable advantage for your assaulty guys. On the *other* hand, your Troops do *not* want to be bogged down in combat, for they shoot better than they assault. If anything, Stubborn is a disadvantage in that you lose Combat Tactics, especially since there are occasions where you *want* to flee, autorally, then try again.
-Bolster Defenses is a *very* situational bonus, that requires your deployment zone to have Ruins to begin with. No ruins, no benefit. It's nice for a Scout unit, but it's not as game-changing as, say, Grand Strategy or Vulkan's bonus, Eldrad's Divination or the ability to modify a Force Organization Chart...
-Bolter Drill is...cute. If it were a bubble akin to Pedro's attack aura, I'd take it more seriously. Otherwise, running superlarge Sternguard units=eggs in basket.

Quote from: Admiral Dred
I cant believe it!  First of all you bury all the tried and true tactics like they are nothing and you hate them, then your "better then what you suggest" features the blandest way of using sternguard possible!  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And for the record, your "comparison" includes a mandatory HQ, so its barely valid.
I am mentioning flaws in your proposed setup. What I mentioned was the "bare minimum" pointwise needed to get such a squad to work. I take there's another 125 points at the minimum you're throwing in to take *full advantage* of your Bolter Drill...but then you gotta take more Combi-Meltas as well! You want a valid comparison between setups then? Podding Sternguard is a bad setup for a list.

Quote from: Admiral Dred
I commented earlier that the unit can take down a nightbringer in a single turn.  Its not that easy to get that fire power.  And if you fought that with your ever so precious termies they would die pitifully, as their amazing invul gets ripped through and their greatness dissolves into 10 orks trying to punch down a god.

Or you can use my idea and slaughter the 400 pt+ model without breaking a sweat.  That power is hard to come by, and it can be put to use on many things.
Another idea would be to use a Rhino to roadblock the Nightbringer from actually reaching a combat for a turn, and subsequently work on phasing out the Necron army in turn. Or focus on the actual threats to your armies like his Destroyers.  Or attritioning Nightbringer over the course of the game should it come to that (it's not like he's going anywhere fast)...For the record though, even without any buffs, 10 Assault Terminators of the Thundershield on the charge will inflict 2.7 wounds to the Nightbringer, another 1.8 in the next round. Statistical deviation favors the Terminators if only because of weight of dice. Toss in Null Zone and any prior shooting (you are taking an actual army to support these Terminators, right?) and it's not like the Nightbringer has much of a chance one way or the other...for the record, anyone still running Necrons moved over to the Deceiver assuming they aren't just running dual lords. Necrons are in a messy spot nowadays, dude.

Quote from: Admiral Dred
It comes down to his:  Lysander is a strong model, capable of taking anything in the game and giving it a run for its money.  He meshes well with 3 squads (including assault termies if you read my entire post, so you can stuff your singular insult on my sternguard idea), he packs some support abilites, and he has stats worthy of only a Space Marine.  Not to mention he cracks open tanks like nothing.
No insult intended. Take it as such if you will. Incidentally, there are better matches than Lysander for Assault Termies. The Librarian brings Nullzone. Shrike gives them Fleet (so they can actually...get the charge off), there's the oft-mentioned Vulkan...you know, general-purpose buffers who will actually make your army better, rather than providing the illusion of improvement.

Quote from: Admiral Dred
And to mirror your anecdote : My Ghazghkull killed two Land Raiders in one turn, that doesn't mean I laugh and point whenever my opponent is packing 2 land raiders.  And you know what makes me feel that Lysander will do any better?  Because before your boyz get to charge there gonna receive 20 twin-linked bolter shots wounding on 2+, thats why.
Difference: I pulled this off due to a well-planned MSU multiassault, where I took advantage of every rule involving order-of-operations for moving attacking-model-to-attacking-model, noting that Defender React is limited by the same restrictions posed on the attacker in question (must maintain coherency/etc), allocation of attacks from model-to-unit, and general reduction in core strength of the Draigostar to actually bring its full force to bear. I...would like your dice if you pulled that off with Ghaz, and to lecture your opponent on basic LR tactica...oh, and for the record, you probably should use Dragonfire against Orks on the drop, since they will deploy for 4+ cover (assuming they don't just string out Buggies/Grots/other filler to ensure you're out of range to shoot their *important* stuff. You know, the Lootas, Kans, and Battlewagons...). Even then, you come short of 9 Orks dead for all that awesome shooting. More Grots will die of course, but they're expendable by contrast.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 09:36:04 PM by MagicJuggler »

Offline Admiral Dred

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2011, 01:02:00 AM »
Some good points indeed.  An obvious veteran  :)

First of all, a lot of successful drop pod armies have been comprised.  You wording of "Drop pods.  Because nobody has thought of *that* before" was undoubtedly misleading.  I don't know how you can make that seem like you are not downgrading a tactic because the volume of uses, because that's what it clearly looked like to me.  But that is just the wording, obviously it had a different meaning. 
Anyways, I never mentioned the success rate of the individual build, nor did I even say of it in *any* of my comments since I signed up on the website :) so I cannot speak for it.  I was ONLY commenting on your (slightly snarky to me) comment about overall drop pods.  Not once did I discuss the use of Sternguard or Lysander in a drop pod.  Just to clear that up. 

Anyways many people have found it useful, but usually run it with more drop pods, as to make more targets, which is the weakness as you quite clearly explain.

Your second bit:  Once again I *never* discussed builds.  Not once.  In response to your comment I simply listed the advantages that you didn't recognize, I did not put forth individual builds and I did not mention transport.  Please reread comment if that was what you got out of it, because that was not my intention.

About "What if the mission doesn't favor you."  Can happen to a lot of things, that fate is not singular to this unit and is an over-generalization of the unit.  Sometimes the mission doesn't favor any of your units, that's that.

Lysander does have 2 transports.  Drop pods and Land Raiders.  With the Land Raider you probably want a deathstar unit of termies, but IDK.  For the drop-pod, you dont have to drop into the heart of the enemy.  Drop it outside, which tricks your enemy and makes him think you are setting up a forward gunline, then you eerily advance your sternguard forward basting full-auto when within 12" means a good amount of destruction.  Then you charge?  What?  Well your gonna get 30 attacks on the charge plus Lysander.  Thats not bad.  OR you can bolster a ruin, drop in, use the bolters, then counter assault with Lysander when the enemy advances to the ruin.  The drop pod is a cheap way a putting unit, a storm bolter (or missile) and another presence on the board, without making it suicide.  I think the pod is brilliant, if not for your classic suicide. 

The Land Raider in my mind is less effective but that is just me.

Your next point

Stubborn.  Well, it increases LD overall, which is good for shooting tests.  Also, it helps mitigate LD modifiers like combat loss or Pariahs (some debate there though).  If you lose combat, Combat Tactic then rally, you are running 2d6 backwards, which for any enemy unit means that if its their turn next they can charge again.  If you stuck in combat, then they wouldn't get their extra attacks.  So your idea works if you lose then run on their turn, you turn around then shoot.  But if you lose on your turn, they will chase you the maximum 12 inches, blaze you with assault weapons, then inflict more pain with the extra charge.  Its 50/50, but I see what you are getting at.  I still think that the great advantage of unmodified all around LD 9 and 10 is great.  Less running, more spacemariney  ;)

Bolster Defenses.  A lot of the things in the game are situational.  Never said it wasn't, but you lacked any previous insight on his support aspect.  It can be quite nice, and if you have a Thunderfire cannon, you can bolster 2 places to fortify your objectives or to protect easy kill-points.  A decent support ability, not be completely overlooked.

Bolter Drill.  Its good, in all my experiences and tests it proves itself as good.  It may not be bubble like Pedro, but you get massive wounding capability and with Vengeance you can crush MEQs, while you have very little chance to overheat.  You might not like it, and not everyone is gonna like it, but it stands as it is, and I find it brilliant.


Onto your next point....

Well, above I remind you of my "proposed setup" never existing.  :o  I never *had* a proposed setup.  Did I?  Your comment is invalid because you try to prove your idea to another idea that you had made up to fight against yourself.  :o Personally I don't know where you got "proposed setup" from.  :o  My only hint of a setup was that he had three nice units to mesh with, and I didn't talk about wargear, transport or .. well, setup. However I think you got my so called setup when I defended drop pods, even though I utterly misunderstood you like a complete doofus  ::) Cleared up I hope.

Also, there is no immediate need for more combi-meltas, though they are good. 
And I thought of a setup.  3 combi-meltas, 3 combi-plasmas and 3 combi-flamers.  A good all-round idea, they can flexibly react to anything the opponent throws at them with 3 (6 if you rapid fire plasmas) shots of different situations.  Don't include Lysander with this if you dont want to.  Tell me what you think :)  Add a fist for close combat punchyness :)

Your next point:  The deathbringer will actually inflict about 4-5 wounds on your termies.  With 7(correct me if I am wrong) attacks 5 will hit and on a 2+ 4-5 will wound.  Thus 5 dead Termies.  Effectively killing your unit, or taking away half of your unit that costs as much.  Your guys then attack with said attacks.  They hit on 4s (once again, correct) wound on threes then half or a third with nullzone are saved.  Like you already said, on the charge they will inflict that much.  A lot less then the nightbringer.  He will hit again and basically kill your entire deathstar unit for 2 wounds in return.

PS I might have calculated that wrong, please tell me if I did.  And if you use the Sternguard, then you don't *need* prior shooting.  Its dead there and there.

For the record, I was using the nightbringer as an example because on average your Sternguard will inflict around 12 wounds, enough to kill.  It was a way to express the strength that you bring to the table with those re-rollable shots.



Next point:  All three of those characters die instantly to anything above strength 8.  That isn't hard to find.  An 35 point ork nob can single those characters and easily and statistically kill them off.  Shrike dies easily, Librarian dies easily (he wont even have an invul unless he uses his ability, but that's only a 5+), Vulkan is a bit harder, but with only a bit of luck the Nob can see to his immediate fate.  Eternal Warrior seems to have an effect?  Thats a lot of points (especially Vulkan) down the drain with *one* not even that lucky shot.   Where as Lysander shrugs it off and keeps swatting around the orks.  The chance of Lysander dying in one round to a Nob is nigh impossible.  My previous idea stands.

Your final point:

KK, nice tactics.  I understand you are good at the game.  But obviously you had no luck, and its not like Orks aren't a close combat unit...

Ghaz did me proud, end of story.

Actually, like I have mentioned countless times, I never suggested Drop Podding.  Why does everything you say make me out as the evil drop pod demon!  :P

If your orks were charging at me (my turn for scenario) in no cover then those 20 shots would probably ring about 15 casualties.  That hews your squad in half, or more if they suffered prior shooting.  Hmm, your charge will then be stuffed by 20 space marine attacks chomping 5 or so more orks, so with 10 orky buddies left (providing you suffered no previous casualties) you aren't gonna do so much damage to my squad are you?  And with Darnath waiting around the corner, your greenskins better be saying their prayers.  Your squad is beyond mob rule and will probably break.  And if they dont, you will receive 5 more wounds and your big bad mob of DraigoStar killing super orks will be reduced to nothing.  I got my points for Lysander back, and he hadn't even charged your Dread yet! 
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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2011, 03:01:11 AM »
Good Lord! You guys are getting seriously worked up over this. Take some time off to have a cup of tea or something relaxing.

One thing caught my attention, though.

Quote from: MagicJuggler
If anything, Stubborn is a disadvantage in that you lose Combat Tactics, especially since there are occasions where you *want* to flee, autorally, then try again.
True as that is, there are also situations (rare as they are) when you might want to keep something big tied up. As an example, let's say a Carnifex charges a squad, wins, but doesn't kill the squad completely; if you're Stubborn, you stand a higher chance of keeping it in place for let's say a Dreadnought (for argument's sake let's pretend it's an Ironclad, if only to give it a melee-centric purpose) to counter-charge. Ditto if you're up against, say, a Wych Cult*. Arguably it's less useful for shooting-focused armies than for melee-focused ones, so it may look like I'm clutching at straws, but Stubborn isn't entirely useless -- depending of course on how much close combat stuff you're packing, so my guess is that a Lysander-centric army would not only need to think it's a beatstick, but be a beatstick as well, on account of having the biggest beatstick in the Codex at its head.


*Yes, I know you should shoot them down the instant you see them, but the Dark Eldar player knows that too and will use everything at his disposal to not let that happen. Sometimes, they succeed and your ranged units are in for a world of misery.

Offline Idaho

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2011, 05:39:43 AM »
@Idaho

I agree, and your point about the shooting attack is duly noted.  He is good, I just cant find a great use for him. 

Yeah he just doesn't fit into everyone's army. I actually don't run him right now because my current style doesn't accomadate him very well.

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2011, 10:16:09 AM »
Dred:
-A good army has the means to adapt to these circumstances. Saying "the mission doesn't always favor me" sounds somewhat...defeatis t. And yes, I know some scenarios can be wonky, like seeing Dark Eldar have the Initiative Seized from under them in Annihilation but having extra options in case of a counter or unfavorable mission circumstances will only help you in the long run.
-For the record, you only attempt to Combat Tactic during the opponent's turn. The point is partially to leave your opponent out to dry, going "I won!" while everyone else has their big guns nearby and go "whassup?" The closest analogue would be like Hydralisk-dancing in Starcraft. :D
-I would like Bolster Defenses more if it wasn't limited to your Deployment Zone. I could better-get behind using a bolstered area for staging stuff then. The odds of two Ruins in a DZ aren't exactly those I count on, and thus I always viewed the bonus as incidental. Now, I actually have a soft spot for Thunderfires despite them being fragile. That said, note that Thunderfires are actually fairly small models. Small enough that you can hide them behind a Razorback in fact. Know Space Invaders? Imagine it in reverse: Your transports are your shields, and your cannons are the tank on the ground. Only, the tank is staying still, and the shields are blocking line-of-fire except to the target you *want* the Cannons to shoot anyway.
-Honestly, I am not *that* bothered by hidden Powerfists. I think I need to write a "Tactica: Multiassaults" sooner or later, because I find learning and taking advantage of said rules helps one win assaults they otherwose should not, and thus it helps win games. It would be more efficient for me to prepare my assault vector as "Boyz to Lysander, Klaws (and other stuff) to Sternguard." I think I'll place this in General 40k later today.
-Nightbringer *wishes* he had that many attacks. I was throwing a mathhammer to counter an assertion, though ultimately said assertion matters relatively little. Again, the Deceiver does more for Necrons (even if he subsequently tempts the player to take Pariahs) and both options are generally inferior to running a second Destroyer Lord, and using the leftovers to buy another Destroyer unit. To some degree, this feels like arguing the comparative melee benefits of Scorpions versus Banshees when Fire Dragons fulfill a role (popping Land Raiders, multiwound deathstars, etc) that the rest of the codex isn't as capable of.
-Given the purpose of a Land Raider is to deliver cargo, against Orks, they should attempt to maintain full speed. The odds of a single S10 Klaw attack destroying or immobilizing (given the importance of said Land Raider, odds are good the opponent took Extra Armor) said transport? 3.2%. For Ghaz to stop one is thus 1-(3.2)^7=.205 or 20.5% (basically, take the odds of *every* attack failing, and subtract from 100%). The odds of Ghaz disabling *both* require a combinatorial function that is less than the odds given. Basically, if I want to stop Land Raiders, I am pretty much bringing 2 Deffrollas, and a fair bit of light armor like Buggies/Trukks to use as mobile roadblocks that said Land Raiders can't flee, attempt to sidesnipe my wagons, or even attain full speed. (I am willing to lose several vehicles to give my stuff the option to hit on 4+).

Hey there Koval:
I understand there are *some* situations where I want a model to stay in place assuming his last buddy died. Atm, I find such situations...relati vely rare (as an example, I would probably prefer to reliably flee/rally from the Carnifex...I have the advantage in initiativd and chances are it overextended its cover. Meaning "commence Missile/Melta Salvo").

With Marines, since the Rhino is *so* cheap relative to individual squads in question, and the game rules generally do not favor assaulting vehicles (cannot consolidate, 6s to hit if they cruise, vehicle explosions are comedy...), in general, throwing more hulls on the table and using them to deny threat-vectors will replicate the advantages of Stubborn. Remember Fish of Fury? Marines can still do similar by running two vehicles in a /\, difference being you can do so while double-tapping Melta/Combimeltas in each unit involved, and you can smoke before you drop in turn...or run a triangle of Rhinos, and avoid assault in turn. In general, look not to focusfire the Nobstar, Trygon, Wychstar, or other beatsticks to kill. You can slow them down while eliminating support first. The Lootas, Hive Guard, and Ravagers of those armies each generally will be the greater threat if only because they can project force where the opponent wants instead of where *I* want. While dealing with assault threats is an inherently reactionary process, you in general have some choices placed before you on how to react.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 10:23:22 AM by MagicJuggler »

Offline Admiral Dred

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2011, 06:55:57 PM »
Now I want a dancing Hydralisk....  ::)

Yeah it does sound a wee bit defeatist I guess but you worded it like that was a viable reason to prove the units ineffectiveness.  One unit doesn't dictate your army, but I agree with that.

Im gonna test a lot with Lysander and the Stubborn vs Combat Tactics.  Problem:  Metrotown GW closed down.    :'(   

The Thunderfires look quite big.  I just wish that Bolster Defenses wan't just ruins.  It's not like the Techmarine cant whip up some barricades on a hill.

My Power Klaw nobs have claimed many a poor T4 multi-wound life, that is what I based it on.  I don't know how skilled my opponents have been, however.

I wasn't trying to argue Necron tactics.  :)

The two land raiders were standing still (IDK, I wasn't playing them!) but still Ghagzkull shouldn't have killed both!  It was quite ludicrous, and my ability was still there.


Ah but one last thing.  I acted like a wee bit of a douche.  IDK, I think I misinterpreted what you said as insults to the tactics but the were just comments...

Anyways sorry.  :-[
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2011, 09:42:24 AM »
It's all good mate. We're in this for more-or-less the same reasons; 40k *is* an expensive hobby after all and it's worth enjoying on every level, be it learning to model (I am a happy konverter; it's one reason I'm still Orks), paint (still learning this :) ) or to play the game itself (I'm always learning this).

Anyway, it's generally easier to take advantage of hidden powerfists on the attack than on the defense and it's especially ideal should you have additional movement be it in the form of supporting transports, fleet, or Jump Pack movement. Extra movement does more than increase your effective assault range: It also allows you more fine control in dictating which models have to fight which models. A simple example (one I'm a fan of; see the attached picture) is "Nob Squad in base contact with the rank-and-file Grey Hunters, Boy mob (from a Wagon/Trukk/etc) to the Wolf Guard with Fist." Force the hidden fist to attack several Boyz, while the Hunters (who normally cause a fair few casualties to Orks) find themselves doing less to the Nobs (who get Cybork Bodies/FNP/etc). Or (as a Marine example): "Tactical Marines to the Uge Choppa Nob Bikers, Assault Terminators to the Klaw Nob Bikers"

Offline Admiral Dred

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2011, 07:48:55 PM »
Thanks for being cool.

And on your second thing, the idea is to scale your S and worth vs the T and worth through assault positions?  Like the pwnerfist (S8) vs nobcheez bikers with klaws (T5 and more points) and your Tacs(s4) vs Uge choppa cheez (T5 but worth less then klaws?).
Sense just doesn't make sense, if you just happen to make sense of it all.
I use Calgar as terrain/objective.   8)
I'm only missing 4 teeth so I should be doing fairly well in Ork World.
When in doubt, C4. --- Jamie Hyneman

Offline Venator101

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2011, 05:40:55 PM »
Christ it's been a while since I've actually posted on here.

And on your second thing, the idea is to scale your S and worth vs the T and worth through assault positions?  Like the pwnerfist (S8) vs nobcheez bikers with klaws (T5 and more points) and your Tacs(s4) vs Uge choppa cheez (T5 but worth less then klaws?).

No, what he actually means is that the Power Klaw guys have to attack the Assault Terminators, as that's all that they are in base contact with. This means that the Termies get a reasonable chance to save the wounds that would slice right through your regular marines, thanks to their Storm Shields. While the Power Armoured marines tie up the 'Uge Choppa ones, meaning they still get their armour save, and the Terminators can't get picked off before they can strike. As it's them that will do the real damage to the Nobz.

Oh and thought I'd point out, when a Nob is on a bike, it's T4(5). Meaning while they are treated as Toughness 5 for trying to wound them, they still suffer Instant Death from Strength 8 weapons. Look at page 26 of the BRB for more info.

Thanks
Honest Win/Draw/Loss Record since 9th August 2010:
Space Marines: 49/18/22
Black Templars: 8/3/3
Grey Knights: 21/6/7
1500 Pts Black Templars vs Necrons. Capture and Control. Draw. 1-1 Objectives.

I don't get much time to play Warhammer recently unfortunately.

Offline Admiral Dred

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2011, 07:09:41 PM »
Ahh ok, I get it.  Thanks for clearing it up.  (and then you comment on my libby thread, what a guy!)

I dont want to hijack the thread, so I have an opinion on Calgar.

His Extra Honor guard is kinda useless, as honor guard aren't all that great IMO.  His dual powerfists aren't great and they have slight redundancy vs low T models with Titanic Might.  However it helps with his shooting (still not great IMO) and his sword.  Calgar however costs a ton, and only allows you a choice of failing or passing LD tests as his army buff.  Space marine LD is already good, so this is a situation ability at best.  He doesn't have much else, but can face most stuff in the game, without breaking a sweat.  But clocking in at 265 (!) pts with his Terminator Armor, he takes up a chunk of your army.  He has his uses, but they are specific, and personally, I am not a big fan.  There are better choices methinks. 
Sense just doesn't make sense, if you just happen to make sense of it all.
I use Calgar as terrain/objective.   8)
I'm only missing 4 teeth so I should be doing fairly well in Ork World.
When in doubt, C4. --- Jamie Hyneman

Offline Idaho

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2011, 09:40:58 AM »
Honour Guard are amazing, though ironically enough do better in a list with a standard Master rather than Calgar.

Using Honour Guard is difficult because their primarily use is to bully infantry and not kill hard targets like Assault Terminators are best for (with those Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields). I have been practicing with Honour Guard since 4th edition so have gradually managed to get quite effective at utilising them on the table.

Still, that's delving into Off Topic territory so think we should perhaps move along here.

Offline Admiral Dred

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2011, 06:57:09 PM »
Yeh of course people can use them good, I just can't lol.  I just feel the ability to have 3 squads is a bit useless.  I mean, what is the point lol? Any AP2 weapons ruin your 35-point guys immediately and I would rather have a Terminator for those few extra points.
Sense just doesn't make sense, if you just happen to make sense of it all.
I use Calgar as terrain/objective.   8)
I'm only missing 4 teeth so I should be doing fairly well in Ork World.
When in doubt, C4. --- Jamie Hyneman

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2011, 02:32:56 AM »
Yeh of course people can use them good, I just can't lol.  I just feel the ability to have 3 squads is a bit useless.  I mean, what is the point lol? Any AP2 weapons ruin your 35-point guys immediately and I would rather have a Terminator for those few extra points.
In all fairness Honour Guard cost less than the equivalent-loadout Vanguard Veterans and don't take up a Fast Attack slot. The problem with seeing it in those terms, though, is that it makes a good number of possible Calgar army setups think they're giant beatsticks with artificer armour.

Offline Idaho

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2011, 03:08:33 PM »
Yeah I agree; Calgar lists with 3x Honour Guard aren't so hot I reckon. If they were Troops choices you might be able to build a list with them, but a standard sized game will just not be competetive with those assault troops...

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2011, 04:07:06 PM »
I use Calgar as terrain/objective.   8)
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Offline Admiral Dred

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Re: calgar worth it or not?
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2011, 07:10:02 PM »
Yeh of course people can use them good, I just can't lol.  I just feel the ability to have 3 squads is a bit useless.  I mean, what is the point lol? Any AP2 weapons ruin your 35-point guys immediately and I would rather have a Terminator for those few extra points.
In all fairness Honour Guard cost less than the equivalent-loadout Vanguard Veterans and don't take up a Fast Attack slot. The problem with seeing it in those terms, though, is that it makes a good number of possible Calgar army setups think they're giant beatsticks with artificer armour.

Sure, but I dislike Vanguards as well. lol.  I would just take a terminator, you get and Invul, relentless, superior shooting, a heavy weapon and S8

Vanguard are overpriced IMO, so its no surprise to me why they cost more lol.

Though Honor Guard EAT infantry like nobodies business.  Also I heard that Calgar is dead, any confirmation?



I use Calgar as terrain/objective.   8)


I might put that in my signature.
Sense just doesn't make sense, if you just happen to make sense of it all.
I use Calgar as terrain/objective.   8)
I'm only missing 4 teeth so I should be doing fairly well in Ork World.
When in doubt, C4. --- Jamie Hyneman

 


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