Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!

[Rasmus]

Rasmus I don't get what you mean by, "handing over complexity to your opponent."

  It means that whatever your army does is what your army should do. You should not have an army that gives your opponent more work. Imagine, for instance, playing an opponent who says "Ok, just so that you know; I can't have any bikes, even though they'd be sweet right now, right+" You smile and look at his army and go "Yeah, they would." That works. Same guy, after setting up his army saying "Ok, since my army has the Eternal Dance-trait you are allowed to reposition all the terrain on the field." You have allready set up, and want to play, and now you have to do something else first? That is not such a good idea. Better keep it "within the family" or in this case, within the list, so to speak. Better now?

I'm sorry, im sure this was answered earlyer but is the venom now a deticated transport option or so? i am looking at it in the 4th edition codex and i cant seem to understand it enough. sorry.

   It is both. This is because it is simpler to have it as a transport for deployment-purposes, but it is a lot better to have it as Fast for things like the Solitiare. So it is both.

I am reading this and i am impressed. how do you decide the amount of points certain equipment and units are worth?

   It takes a bit of work, cross-referencing different lists, playtesting and balancing. It takes a few hours of work for every single model/item.

And please, manny, do not serial-post. The "Modify"-buttn, as pointed out by InfinityCircuit, is there for a reason. Thank you.

[Manny-Kun]

I see, this is the first time i heard of this.
by any chance is it an option to choose whether you want it as a dedicated transport or both dedicated and fast choice? the Venom counts as both fast and dedicated

also can a solitare choose a eldar jetbike for wargear?

[Rasmus]

I see, this is the first time i heard of this.
by any chance is it an option to choose whether you want it as a dedicated transport or both dedicated and fast choice? the Venom counts as both fast and dedicated

also can a solitare choose a eldar jetbike for wargear?

   You buy it either as a transport or as fast attack. You have to pick when you pay the points for it, there is no way to "shift" it in mid-game.

As for the jetbike; look at the Harlequin Armoury. See the jetbike?  See the line under it? Does it answer your question?

[InfinityCircuit]

Has anyone done any playtesting with regard to the 'optimum' number of Benathai?  I'm just curious but it seems like an easy place where points could be wasted.

Rasmus: Have you gotten any clarification on how leaping is handled in the new Tyranids Codex?

[Rasmus]

1. I have played with the Benathai a few times and if you don't use it correctly you are wasting a lof of points, but when launching into combat with termies just the shooting of four is enough to earn your points back!
2. I am working on securing that clarification, and hope to get it within a week at the most.

Edit: update posted - slight clarification on SS-power and vehicles, as well as a clarification on the passanger-capacity for the Venom, and finally a tweak on the Mimes' options.

[Biggreengribbly]

I'm pretty sure the leaping rules for Nids are that the rule allowing everybody within two inches of a friendly model within B2B is extended to 3 inches.

This I found out from the book belonging to a guy who pre-ordered the army box in case you wonder how reliable it is. This is my memory we're working from here so maybe you might want to confirm this

[Rasmus]

This is the information I have gotten too, which is what is in the revision at this time. Thanks.

[InfinityCircuit]

I went through it with a fine tooth comb, and I have a  couple more comments, mostly niggling reminders:

-The interactions between Jetbikes and Flip Belts.  I never really noticed this before, but I think you should make it clear that all Flip Belt rules apply for Jetbike-mounted models.  (Or am I wrong on this?)

-Do Flight Belt-equipped models use 3D6 instead of 2D6 for all relevant movement tests?  I don't think this is very clear.

-Plasma Grenades now can be used against vehicles.  Can a Pack Grenade Launcher be used to fire a Plasma Grenade at a vehicle?

-I think Tanglefoot Grenades should be 3 points.  Why?  The current incarnation will only reduce the enemy by 2", normally, whereas it used to reduce by 3.5".  However maybe with the high Initiative of Harlequins it is fine the way it is.

-Does the Masque of the Last Laugh give auto-hits or do you have to roll to hit?  You only mention basic S, not WS so I don't understand what you mean.  If you DO have to roll to hit, do you roll against an enemies modified WS or the enemy's original WS?

-I have a weird question about Masque of the Laughing God: Suppose you are playing a 2v2 game with Daemonhunters as your ally and two non-Chaos opponents.  Can the Daemonhunters adversary rules daemons be summoned within 12" of the Harlequin?  They wouldn't be summoned by "Chaos" models, per-se.

-Does Masque of the Red Death work on any Harlequin?  Does this include Spiritwalkers, Jetbikes, and Independent Characters?

-Shadowseer is mispelled in the "psychic powers" description section.

-Does the Vindicare Assassin Spy Mask work against Veil of Tears?

-Under Impetuousness of Youth the mention of "Warlock Troupe" needs to be removed.

-Don't you have to mention under all the units that they are either A) Harlequins or B)list the special rules?  I'm just wondering--it's obvious but I'm going for maximum ease-of-use

-"infiltrator" under Superb Infiltrator for the Master Mime needs to be capitalized.

-Isn't the accepted cost for a Shuriken Cannon on a vehicle 20 points, not 15 points like on the Mockingbird?  It's fine the way it is but I'm just wondering.

-Do Death Jesters get Hawk's Talons and Firepikes as mentioned in CJ44?  You only point the reader to CJ39.

-Superb Infiltrator is mispelled on Nightshade.

-Shouldn't End-Hand say it acts as a Stormglove, not a Powerglove?

Sorry for all the comments!  Probably mostly my own stupidity

[Rasmus]

No they are not. These are all things that I will get to have to fix, just not right at this moment. Thank you for your effort.

edit: List updated.

Some of these things are just fixed now, but some needed a comment.

-Do Flight Belt-equipped models use 3D6 instead of 2D6 for all relevant movement tests?  I don't think this is very clear.

This was already covered in the "moves as if equipped with jumppack"-line.

-Isn't the accepted cost for a Shuriken Cannon on a vehicle 20 points, not 15 points like on the Mockingbird?  It's fine the way it is but I'm just wondering.

Yes it is, but the catapults are 8 points, so that's why, as it replaces the catapults, the cannon is a tad cheaper.

-Do Death Jesters get Hawk's Talons and Firepikes as mentioned in CJ44? You only point the reader to CJ39.

No. Those were not my idea, but kinrades, and they fit horribly with  the long-range concept of the DeathJesters. Has anyone ever used that option? Made a single conversion for it?

-Shouldn't End-Hand say it acts as a Stormglove, not a Powerglove?

No, He needs a boost to his S if he is to hit anything with his mitten.  With S3 + Stormglove he has to roll a a 6 + 3 to glance 12 armour, with a powerglove all he needs is one six out of 2 dice to do the same

[InfinityCircuit]

Thanks for the reply Rasmus.  I see know how I became confused.  But I still don't understand what a Powerglove does. 

Any comments on the Tanglefoot Grenades idea?  I'm now tempted to keep them at 4 pts because of their strength--if a unit falls back, you WILL catch it with Tanglefoots.  On the other hand its relative power level is lower.

[Manny-Kun]

hmm i came cross a question with the venom.

venom is allowed to carry 6 troups and 1 IC

lets say i have an empty fast attack venom, no matter what, it can only carry 1 IC even if its empty? so lets say 2 DJ can not hop on an empty venom?

reason why i ask is because i came up with a situation where any DJ that are too far to catch up can hitch a ride from a returning venom. but if there is more then 1 DJ and only 1 venom it will take quite a few turns to get him up to the battlelines.

[eatep3]

Ok, I have just played my first game with any eldar online list. I played against a craftworld army using the new 4th ed list. I was playing against a much better and more experienced player who (before today) I had only ever one 2 games against. I wanted to try the new EO revision and the effect was insane. Between the Impetuousness of Youth psychic power and the hit and fade rule, I slaughtered him. At the end of the 6th turn I had half my army left. He had nothing.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hi everybody.

I've just played a game against my eatep's harlequins, and I let him use Rasmus' revision because I was sympathetic as I also play harlequins and know how difficult it can be to play with the CJ 39 list. I was totally blown away by the Impetuousness of Youth psychic power. The thing is freakin' INSANE!!! It really does indeed make the Troupes fly across the battlefield. It got me peeved for several reasons:

1. The range on this psychic power is crazy! 18"? Come on!! Look at the range of some of the other Shadowseer powers and compare them to the Farseer powers. All of the augmenting psychic powers have a range of 6"!!

2. The Shadowseer doesn't need LOS to the unit that he's casting it on!! He can just sit comfortably behind an obstructing piece of terrain and make things zip around like crazy. This is just not right.

3. It only costs 10 points! This thing is deserving of so much more than 10 points. Again, compare it to the augmenting Farseer powers Guide and Fortune, they're both 25 and 30 points!


Now, I think that if anyone will ever let me play with the revision, I can see myself having a lot of fun with this power, but (there's always a "but") I think that this is a slightly overpowered ability. First of all, I would reduce its range to 6" or 12". Secondly, I would require the Shadowseer to have LOS with the unit he's augmenting. And thirdly, I would price this power at about 25 points due to the fact that it makes normal harlequins faster than most vehicles and jump infantry!

Also, I think that "the hunt" psychic power is a cool idea, but seems difficult to use efficiently, you might want to consider changing its range to 18" and possibly have it used as a shooting attack on a single unit, instead of having it effect every unit in the radius around the Shadowseer.

Anyway... I hope I'm helping with all this. I'll have more rantings to come.

[Rasmus]

Thanks for the reply Rasmus.  I see know how I became confused.  But I still don't understand what a Powerglove does. 

Any comments on the Tanglefoot Grenades idea?  I'm now tempted to keep them at 4 pts because of their strength--if a unit falls back, you WILL catch it with Tanglefoots.  On the other hand its relative power level is lower.

  It has been changed. You are of course right about it, so I changed it.

hmm i came cross a question with the venom.

venom is allowed to carry 6 troups and 1 IC

lets say i have an empty fast attack venom, no matter what, it can only carry 1 IC even if its empty? so lets say 2 DJ can not hop on an empty venom?

reason why i ask is because i came up with a situation where any DJ that are too far to catch up can hitch a ride from a returning venom. but if there is more then 1 DJ and only 1 venom it will take quite a few turns to get him up to the battlelines.

    Two ICs cna make themselves into one unit, so you could techicallycart around 6 DJs and  Solitaire, or 6 DJs and a Seventh as an IC in one venom. Talk about gunship!

Ok, I have just played my first game with any eldar online list. I played against a craftworld army using the new 4th ed list. I was playing against a much better and more experienced player who (before today) I had only ever one 2 games against. I wanted to try the new EO revision and the effect was insane. Between the Impetuousness of Youth psychic power and the hit and fade rule, I slaughtered him. At the end of the 6th turn I had half my army left. He had nothing.

  Did you use the 4th edition Revision or the 3rd? What army did you use and what did he use? Could you write up a battlereport (make a new thread for all of this, not in here please).

Hi everybody.

I've just played a game against my eatep's harlequins, and I let him use Rasmus' revision because I was sympathetic as I also play harlequins and know how difficult it can be to play with the CJ 39 list. I was totally blown away by the Impetuousness of Youth psychic power. The thing is freakin' INSANE!!! It really does indeed make the Troupes fly across the battlefield. It got me peeved for several reasons:

1. The range on this psychic power is crazy! 18"? Come on!! Look at the range of some of the other Shadowseer powers and compare them to the Farseer powers. All of the augmenting psychic powers have a range of 6"!!

2. The Shadowseer doesn't need LOS to the unit that he's casting it on!! He can just sit comfortably behind an obstructing piece of terrain and make things zip around like crazy. This is just not right.

3. It only costs 10 points! This thing is deserving of so much more than 10 points. Again, compare it to the augmenting Farseer powers Guide and Fortune, they're both 25 and 30 points!


Now, I think that if anyone will ever let me play with the revision, I can see myself having a lot of fun with this power, but (there's always a "but") I think that this is a slightly overpowered ability. First of all, I would reduce its range to 6" or 12". Secondly, I would require the Shadowseer to have LOS with the unit he's augmenting. And thirdly, I would price this power at about 25 points due to the fact that it makes normal harlequins faster than most vehicles and jump infantry!

Also, I think that "the hunt" psychic power is a cool idea, but seems difficult to use efficiently, you might want to consider changing its range to 18" and possibly have it used as a shooting attack on a single unit, instead of having it effect every unit in the radius around the Shadowseer.

Anyway... I hope I'm helping with all this. I'll have more rantings to come.

   If it was to be used as a shootingattack with a single target it needs a greater range, but drop a Shadowseer between a few blocks of Guardsmen and fire off the Hunt and you will see how effective it is!

   As to the Imperuousness of Youth.. Hmm. I never experienced it as that overpowering, but I will look it over again, and see if you have done something I have missed. Since it only affects a single squad at a time and the Harlequins tend to spread across the field pretty fast I have never seen it this bad. In 2nd ed this affected ALL Harlequins on the field (luckily those rules never made it into print...).

[InfinityCircuit]

Hi everybody.

I've just played a game against my eatep's harlequins, and I let him use Rasmus' revision because I was sympathetic as I also play harlequins and know how difficult it can be to play with the CJ 39 list. I was totally blown away by the Impetuousness of Youth psychic power. The thing is freakin' INSANE!!! It really does indeed make the Troupes fly across the battlefield. It got me peeved for several reasons:

1. The range on this psychic power is crazy! 18"? Come on!! Look at the range of some of the other Shadowseer powers and compare them to the Farseer powers. All of the augmenting psychic powers have a range of 6"!!

On the other hand, the augmenting powers have a relative power level much higher than Impetuousness of Youth.

2. The Shadowseer doesn't need LOS to the unit that he's casting it on!! He can just sit comfortably behind an obstructing piece of terrain and make things zip around like crazy. This is just not right.

I sort of view Impetuousness of Youth as a power inherent to the Harlequins--something they all have.  However the Shadowseer was the only place the power could go.  Therefore it doesn't really need LOS.

3. It only costs 10 points! This thing is deserving of so much more than 10 points. Again, compare it to the augmenting Farseer powers Guide and Fortune, they're both 25 and 30 points!

Rasmus: did you lower the cost?  I would have sworn that I was agitating for the same thing months (or maybe even now a year) ago

Now, I think that if anyone will ever let me play with the revision, I can see myself having a lot of fun with this power, but (there's always a "but") I think that this is a slightly overpowered ability. First of all, I would reduce its range to 6" or 12". Secondly, I would require the Shadowseer to have LOS with the unit he's augmenting. And thirdly, I would price this power at about 25 points due to the fact that it makes normal harlequins faster than most vehicles and jump infantry!

I agree with Rasmus.  In its current incarnation (IIRC it used to be much stronger) I haven't had any problems with it.  Why?  On the average board, it will make a unit go an extra seven or so inches in a turn (maybe?).  However, Harlequins will reach the enemy in very few turns.  Therefore, unless you play on a very large board all this power will do is make your forces hit in waves, which is not a good thing!  Is there anything in your experience that counteracts with speculation?

Also, I think that "the hunt" psychic power is a cool idea, but seems difficult to use efficiently, you might want to consider changing its range to 18" and possibly have it used as a shooting attack on a single unit, instead of having it effect every unit in the radius around the Shadowseer.

Really?  I haven't tested 'The Hunt' but given how popular Fury of the Ancients is, it seems to me this is better on a strictly pinning-level basis.  I don't know though.

Anyway... I hope I'm helping with all this. I'll have more rantings to come.

Thanks a lot for your comments!

EDIT:  I just played a game, 1000 points, with the revision.  I took a Shadowseer w/ 10 Harlequins, 6 Harlequins in a Venom, 2 DJs, and a Spiritwalker.  I played against the DE WWP army I've been playtesting on the Dark Eldar board.  The results were somewhat distrubing.  The mission was Scouting Engagement.

First off, I got first turn and moved forward with everything.  Basically, he shot up all the Troupes, while my reserves all came on the board and started slogging away.  I made a HUGE play error with the Venom squad, shooting instead of assaulting, and was therefore wiped out on that flank.  In the meantime my 10 man squad was reduced to one man, who dubiously took down five DE before finally dying.  At this point I had the Spiritwalker, the DJs, and the Shadowseer left.  I was screwed .  The DJs and Wraithlord put up a good fight however.  The DJs and Wraithlord wiped down the DE Warrior squad of 16 down to 8, and the Wraithlord took out the Talos, losing itself in the process.  The next turn the DJs died and the Shadowseer assault the DE squad of 8.  He wiped them out, (Dread Mask + Tanglefoot ) and then, the last model in my army against 18 DE Warriors including Sybarites and Special Weapons weathered the turn of shooting.  Then the impossible happened.  The Shadowseer charged into the remains of a Sniper squad, wiped them out again, Sweeping Advanced into another squad of 10, killed four, the enemy rolled all 1's and 2's for the attacks, and then the Shadowseer WIPED them out.  In other words, my Shadowseer killed 310 points of DE, 26 Warriors, without taking a wound.

However the game was called a draw with only a 57 point advantage for me, and no scoring units left on the board.

Conclusions?  Hit & Fade is too good right now.  One thing I'd consider is changing it to re-rolling failed to-hits, or returning to the way it was.  In addition, the characters are overpowered.  But I don't think we can fix this--in other words, this game was an anomaly.  In addition, I think Shrieker Cannons need to cost more than a Shuriken Cannon!  The power level isn't even close IMHO, but the Shuriken costs more!  Dread Mask is good, but it always was.  All in all I was pretty pleased with the performance of the revision.  If not for my gross play error I would have won.

[Rasmus]

So Furious charge is more powerful than re-rolling? That seems very strange to me, and is not something I have encountered.
I have looked over Impetuousness of Youth again and tweaked it a bit.
As for the cannons - another issue that has to be looked into, I am sure.

[InfinityCircuit]

Ok I've done a bit more thinking and I think Furious Charge has to go.  It upsets the balance between Harlequin's Kisses and Power Weapons.  With Furious Charge thrown into the fray I don't really see myself taking Kisses in equal numbers to Power Weapons, more like 1:2.  I don't think we want to make a Harlequin signature weapon weaker like this.

Also--didn't they errata the Eldar Wraithlord to make it forced to take a heavy weapon?  I don't believe they did the same to the Spiritwalker, so we might want to change this.  On the same topic as the Spiritwalker why are we listing what it can't do instead of what it can?

[Rasmus]

I will look in on teh Hit and Fade and see what can be done about it tomorrow.
As for the wraithlord; yes, it might be a good idea, but I haven't played with the Harlequin Spiritwalker with the tweakedstatline (anyone notice yet?) so I am not sure.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I agree with Infinity Circuit about Furious Charge; it's way too good. Personally I liked it better the way it was before.

[InfinityCircuit]

I will look in on teh Hit and Fade and see what can be done about it tomorrow.
As for the wraithlord; yes, it might be a good idea, but I haven't played with the Harlequin Spiritwalker with the tweakedstatline (anyone notice yet?) so I am not sure.

Tweaked statline?  I certainly didn't notice. 

I've been thinking some more about the Furious Charge and now I have my doubts...sorry to be so wishy-washy .  I think that Stormgloves are under-used, and so therefore maybe the current Hit & Fade rule would help make some characters that don't just have Powerblades and Harlequin's Kisses.  On the other hand, this does detract from the value of the Kiss as mentioned.  In the end it is all just a balancing act I guess

EDIT: I decided to play 2 400 point games, one with the CJ39/44 rules, and one with the revision.  I took 6 Harlequins w/ PW, HK, Leader w/ Dreadmask, Tangles, Neuro-D in a Venom w/ Holo-field, Fusion Gun (This is my all time favorite squad--I don't leave home without it!) and 10 Mimes.  It turned out I played Necrons, who had 20 Warriors and 3 Scarabs.  The results were surprising.  In the first game, with the old rules, I rolled through one Necron squad with my Venom squad and then lost all but one to the stupid Fearless Scarabs .  Meanwhile the Mimes slowly brought down the ranks of the Necron Warriors.  In the end he phased out, and I had 7 Mimes and a Power Weapon Trouper left.

In the second game, it was much closer!  Once again I rolled through a Necron squad, but this time my guys were shredded by Gauss Fire--I assaulted the Warriors from the only angle, but that angle left me in the path of some fire.  However with 10 Mimes left I didn't give up.  I focused all attacks on the remaining squad.  Only needing to take down four guys to phase him out, I focused on this and finally phased him out with 4 Mimes left (phew!)

Conclusions?
-Luck is always an important factor, especially with this kind of fragile army.
-Mimes are really good.  I never used them before but only 10 points for four attacks on the charge is great!
-Hit & Fade is really too good as Furious Charge.  It makes the Power Weapon overpowered IMHO.
-Overall I was pleased with the performance of the Harlequins.