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Author Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!  (Read 150524 times)

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Offline Solitaire11

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #480 on: December 19, 2004, 04:24:41 PM »
Im going to play test it sometime....I have to! ;D Good list!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2004, 04:27:13 PM by Solitaire11 »
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Offline egeus52

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #481 on: January 1, 2005, 02:55:47 PM »
not certain that this wasn't already covered, but since a mimic can be given wargear from the armoury he can presumably take a D-field and be able to use it.  likewise, he can take one of the more powerful masks.  And yet he can't use a normal holosuit or mask of fear (or flip belt)?  This seems to make no sense - surely his lack of training should prevent him from using those items, or if on the other hand he is considered to be better trained, then he should not suffer from the mime's disadvantage rule in the first place.

Just a thought...

btw - i really like this list and will be usin it for the first time tomorrow. :)

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #482 on: January 1, 2005, 03:07:26 PM »
Well, not everything comes down to training, I suppose. I mean, Boyscouts have access to pretty sofisticated night-goggles when on longer hikes, just like soldiers do, but they still don't have any M16's. So in a way I see your point, but then again, there are several explanations as to why the Mimes would have access to some but not all equipment. If the Mimic were to have all those things it would be another 20 points added ot its costs. Would it be worth it? Given that he would be alone in the squad with it?

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Offline EightyEight

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #483 on: January 5, 2005, 07:13:36 AM »
Is Nightshade going to be added to the revision? Just out of interest.
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Offline Lascidel

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #484 on: January 5, 2005, 12:53:21 PM »
I'll apologize first that I didn't read the 13 pages of replies. I don't play Harlies but I read the codex and have a few comments for simplicity. This was obviously written during 3rd ed and a few things should be modified. Mostly it's a case of 'don't specify rules which are in the BGB because the BGB already has them.' If BGB changes them you get those problematic conflicts of rules. If anyone else, in the past 13 pages has mentioned any of these I'm sorry for bringing it up again.

page 1, flip belt entry makes reference to TAR. I'd suggest removing that. Also remove the 'receive 1 attack like other models' because that is a TAR rule.'
page 2, new harlequin wargear: 'these rules supercede the main rulebook rules.' you should probably drop that, it sets a bad precedent and the only real shared wargear are witchblades and fusion guns. Again, this is a case where *IF* the rules are changed you'd want the Harlequin rules to change to. It would be complicated to have 'harlequin witchblades' and normal witchblades. If witchblades are deemed too weak/strong then all witchblades should be effected (as an example).
page 3, familiar group: add 'cannot be taken as casualties.' That is obviously implied, but some people read what they want to read.
page 3, bio-explosive ammo: you can drop the 'reposition the blast template.'  as that is a standard rule.
page 4, grenade pack launcher is usable on the turn the model deep strikes. if the model comes through a webway it shouldn't be allowed (which is deep strike)
page 5, masque of red death: rewrite to say that they follow the standard hit & run rules in BGB.
page 5, shadowseer psychic powers: "can only use one power per turn" you may wish to make a comment about using familiars.
page 7, warlock power, "reroll any misses in the shooting/combat phase." I assume you mean 'reroll to-hit misses', if so I'd make that explicit. if you mean ALL misses (like the Librarian Veil of Time) such as a fail to wound, or scatter I would be explicit as to which 'misses' you are referring to.
page 7, sneaking off the join the circus: I'd give a fluff reason why such equipment/models aren't allowed.
page 8, flight belt troope deep strike: 3rd ed rulebook page number reference, update to 4th. There are probably a few of these.

The only note I'll make as to a real change, not just a clarification, is warlock group special powers. I'm assuming that a roll of 3 will twin link weapons and doesn't reroll to-hit, to-wound, leadership tests, AP rolls, etc. If so, TLing a BS3 weapon and increasing BS to 4 isn't much of a difference (75% vs 67%). I'd consider finding a new psychic power, like become fearless, or reroll morale.

Awesome work.
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Offline Harmen

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #485 on: January 6, 2005, 03:22:39 PM »
Annoyingly enough, my Acrobat reader doesn't work on your file, and on what I beleive to be your site (with the orange Background?) I could find the list either, don't you have an HTML version of it?
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #486 on: January 11, 2005, 03:56:00 PM »
I'll apologize first that I didn't read the 13 pages of replies. I don't play Harlies but I read the codex and have a few comments for simplicity. This was obviously written during 3rd ed and a few things should be modified. Mostly it's a case of 'don't specify rules which are in the BGB because the BGB already has them.' If BGB changes them you get those problematic conflicts of rules. If anyone else, in the past 13 pages has mentioned any of these I'm sorry for bringing it up again.

page 1, flip belt entry makes reference to TAR. I'd suggest removing that. Also remove the 'receive 1 attack like other models' because that is a TAR rule.'
  Yes - any 4th ed re-write would of course remove that. For now, since the main text is from 2003, most people will get that it is for 4th ed. Frankly I am holding off any major rewrite until I see how leaping is handled in the Nid codex.

Quote
page 3, familiar group: add 'cannot be taken as casualties.' That is obviously implied, but some people read what they want to read.
   True enough.

Quote
page 3, bio-explosive ammo: you can drop the 'reposition the blast template.' as that is a standard rule.
   But it was not when the thing was written...
 
Quote
page 4, grenade pack launcher is usable on the turn the model deep strikes. if the model comes through a webway it shouldn't be allowed (which is deep strike)
   True again

Quote
page 7, sneaking off the join the circus: I'd give a fluff reason why such equipment/models aren't allowed.
   The Revision is low on fluff on a whole, but something could be done about it I guess.

Annoyingly enough, my Acrobat reader doesn't work on your file, and on what I beleive to be your site (with the orange Background?) I could find the list either, don't you have an HTML version of it?
  No - the HTML-version was corrupted over and over, and I kept getting mails like "Hey! How could you write Harlequins with WS8!" just because someone wanted to "boost" the values a bit. This is not an option with the PDF. And the document works, as far as I can tell. My acrobat reads it fine.

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Offline Lascidel

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #487 on: January 22, 2005, 10:02:07 AM »
Rergarding Mime disruption:
I'm sure you are better versed in Harlequin background than I am, but it occured to me today that the mime disruption doesn't really affect the harlequin's most hated enemy; chaos. Many chaos lists are completely fearless. I wouldn't put it past the harlequins to play with the heads of someone who is immune to head games (just for their own fun), but it seems their tactics should be best suited towards their sworn enemy.

As a suggestion, and this would make them unique from Alaitoc, instead of -1Ld/pinning/reserve, perhaps things like:
drugged: The Mimes infiltrate the enemy barracks and poison the opponent's food or inject them with harmful chemicals while they sleep. -1S to a random/target infantry unit for the battle. (-1T would work too, I don't know if thay would be too powerful though when combined with Hit & Fade and power weapons)
frustration: The Mimes infiltrate the enemy camp and engage in being generally annoying. Leaving calling cards, jumping out of the shadows to wave at the enemy then dissappear, painting helmets neon pink, etc. This encourages the enemy to want to wring the necks of the Harlequins; a certain satisfaction which can't be accomplished by use of a gun. -1 BS to a random/target infantry unit for the battle.

Food for thought.
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Offline jmeis982

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #488 on: February 12, 2005, 07:04:38 PM »
I'm sure this is probably covered somewhere else in this post, but i cant seem to get the army builder files for harlequins to work quite right. the instructions say to import teh 3 .40k files but there are 6 of them and then i get a missing variable error.

JP

Offline EightyEight

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #489 on: February 12, 2005, 08:21:46 PM »
frustration: The Mimes infiltrate the enemy camp and engage in being generally annoying. Leaving calling cards, jumping out of the shadows to wave at the enemy then dissappear, painting helmets neon pink, etc. This encourages the enemy to want to wring the necks of the Harlequins; a certain satisfaction which can't be accomplished by use of a gun. -1 BS to a random/target infantry unit for the battle.
Heh heh. Great idea! I can see my friend's Space Wolves raging across the battlefield waving pink helmets and toy bones at the Harlies...
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Offline Roy

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #490 on: February 18, 2005, 10:12:10 AM »
I was reading some harlequin fluff on critically hit, and found this section on the Harlequins taken from White Dwarf 105:

A device known as a holo-suit, dathedi shield (dathedi: "between colours"), or visual disruption field, is incorporated into each Harlequin's body-suit; projecting a holographic field around the wearer's body. This produces various costume effects in performance, and operates in battle like a programmable form of cameleoline, breaking up the Harlequin's outline. Refractor and conversion fields are also widely used as well. In addition the Death Jesters commonly wear carapace and other armour types.

So perhaps the army list should incorporate these ideas instead of the 4+ flip belt save?

If you want to read all the fluff, here's a link: http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/w40krp/WD105_Harlequins.shtml


Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #491 on: February 18, 2005, 10:14:21 AM »
The holo-suit provides coversave, and the flip-belt save in cc.
You want to add an armoursave for the DJs?

Refractor and conversionfields were common in RT and 2nd ed. They are all but gone now. It will be tough to reintroduce them. I think it is simpler this way, but if you can make it work then please let me know how.

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Offline Roy

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #492 on: February 18, 2005, 10:53:30 AM »
The holo-suit provides coversave, and the flip-belt save in cc.
You want to add an armoursave for the DJs?

Refractor and conversionfields were common in RT and 2nd ed. They are all but gone now. It will be tough to reintroduce them. I think it is simpler this way, but if you can make it work then please let me know how.

I started out with RT and 2nd ed, so I might be more comfortable with the concept that the new generation players. Most of which have never even heard of the fields.
I noticed they are part of the pirate lists, but pirates aren't likely to be officialy introduced for a long time i think.

Refractor fields ar very "harlequenish" in my opinion, as old fluff says refractor fields are identifiable as a shimmering blur of lights, much like the holosuit itself.
Conversion fields transformed the raw energy into blinding flashes of light, which is also harlequenish imo. And I wonder at the reason why they totally removed the concept of personal protection fields. Races like Tau and Eldar in particular would likely employ these, and perhaps some high ranking imperials. Dark Eldar might use them aswell.

GW might have removed the concept, but then "reintroduced" personal field in the harlequin lists, like the holo field and domino field. And you still have the rosarius, which originally incorporated a conversion field. Not sure they still use the wording though. You also have Dante's familiar with the helmet still, right?

So it seems the concept isn't entirerly gone, and so would not really be reintroduced, just used again.

As for Eldar, I can't see aspects using it, as they are bound within they're chosen aspect, and the gear they use. Farseers and warlocks have their rune armour, and so wouldn't need it. Pirates would use them, and certainly harlequins. A few high ranking exodites might use them, although I imagine they would be in few numbers.

Chapter masters, possibly other high ranking space marines, like Librarians might, chaplains already do.
Certain commanders of the IG might, Yarrick has his own special field.

THe differend Ordos would certainly have access to these fields, inquisitors and their like.

With todays armour rules, you could only use one save at any time anyways, and they would count as invunerable saves for all intents and purposes.

This is my general breakdown of protective fields.

As for death jesters, their heavy weaponry might make them less mobile than other eldar, and them standing still might make a Carapace more realistic. But what would be the point of the holo field then? a 4+/4+ cover save? The carapace would work against template weapon like flamers.

The difficult part I suppose is the problem of having two unmodifiable saves. Maybe holofields can work like stealth? adding to cover save?

Any other suggestions?

EDIT:

Ursakar Creed has a refraction field. Just found that out. So the technology is still there.

The biggest problem is not reintroducing the fields, they already exist in 4th ed, though far from common. The problem is how to work them into an army list.

Perhaps say the holofield always adds 2+ to any cover save, and all harlequins come equipped with refractor fields, with an option for HQ's squad leader etc to buy carapace armour or conversion fields?

« Last Edit: March 13, 2005, 04:10:56 PM by SnakeEyes »

Offline Jonik

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #493 on: April 2, 2005, 12:42:39 PM »
I've been thinking about mimes, or even harlequins as a whole (but mainly mimes).

Isn't there a space wolf special rule where their scouts can come in from the opponents table edge? Would that work with mimes?

Just a thought.
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Offline Anacron

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #494 on: April 2, 2005, 08:10:29 PM »
Why can't the Stormglove (i.e. riveblade ;)) be combined with powerblades?

Why can the Master Mime only re-roll cover save/FoF if he's with a squad?  Can't he do it by himself?

Really not convinced by the Shadowseer's Benathai rules. :-\  You need to make clear that the fusion pistol no longer is a Pistol, but is now an Assault weapon if you have enough of them.  I assmue they are modelled like a Nurgling Infestation.

Why is a Harlequin only wounded on a 4+ when crashing using a flight-belt? What makes a flight-belt any different from any other jump pack technique?

I thought I had loads more comments/complaints/questions than that, but the rest's actually rather good. :)


Special force fields:  I wouldn't say they're all but gone at all.  The Guard speak regularly of refractor fields, and the marine codex calls the chaplain's rosarius a conversion field (iirc, anyway).  I did make up some new rules for them once, they're not brilliant but you might be able to get some ideas from them

Conversion field (4+): if at least one successful invulnerable save is made in close combat, all models in base contact halve their WS (rounding up) for this assault phase (or next assault phase if already fought this phase).  No special rules against shooting.

Displacer field (3+): if at least one successful invulnerable save is made against wounds from a single unit (or single initiative step in combat), model moves D3 in a random direction.  Model will stop before moving into/through impassable terrain, and will stop the other side of other models (1” away in the case of enemy units he wasn't in combat with).  This can take him out of combat, opponents may not consolidate.

Power field (2+): At the end of each player turn, roll a single D6 for each wound saved by the power field in that turn, and consult the following table:
Any Double: Overload! The powerpack fails, and the power field will not function for the rest of the battle.
Any Triple: Meltdown! The generator overheats, and inflicts a single S5 AP2 hit on the bearer, which the power field will not protect against. Needless to say, the field will not function for the remainder of the battle.
Any Quadruple: KABOOM! Place the small blast marker over the model, and every model touched by the template takes a single S5 AP2 hit, vehicles are undamaged.  The power field user is killed without recourse to any save.



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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #495 on: April 3, 2005, 07:13:43 AM »
Why can't the Stormglove (i.e. riveblade ;)) be combined with powerblades?
   Possibly you can't cut the same whole with two blades at once. Try with with two swords and see how easy it is.

Quote
Why can the Master Mime only re-roll cover save/FoF if he's with a squad? Can't he do it by himself?
  He needs their bodies to cover himself, perhaps? And he gets inspired to lead them, and moves quicker? Basically it is a balance-mechanic called "synergic potential" that makes the Master Mime something other than a smaller Solitaire.

Quote
Really not convinced by the Shadowseer's Benathai rules. :-\ You need to make clear that the fusion pistol no longer is a Pistol, but is now an Assault weapon if you have enough of them. I assmue they are modelled like a Nurgling Infestation.
  This would be in the 4th ed revision. Nad no, they would not, at least not originally. I posted pics of mine a while back.

Quote
Why is a Harlequin only wounded on a 4+ when crashing using a flight-belt? What makes a flight-belt any different from any other jump pack technique?
Because unlike all others he has another belt that allows him to ignore terrain when moving. These combine in this way.


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Offline Leurethir Khiadei

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #496 on: April 20, 2005, 01:45:42 PM »
Hey, I've took a look at ur harly revision and i have but one question. (I may be confused out of pure ignorance, but hey)

How can ur special character "Nightshade" carry an executioner, powerfist, powerblades and a shuriken pistol?? Is this even possible? If so, how ???

Offline Leurethir Khiadei

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #497 on: April 20, 2005, 02:06:53 PM »
ok forget everything I said. I just found out how and realise that the rank "newbie" is at present, the most fitting title i could have been awarded :-(

Offline Roy

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #498 on: April 20, 2005, 02:21:31 PM »
Don't worry about it, we were all newbies at one time :)

And to help you mature on the board, I will first tell you not to double post, instead, use the button to add/replace/delete parts of you previous post. Double posting is considered spam, and will quickly get you in trouble.

I would suggest you check out the Beginners & Newbies section of this community. It will help you out with forum rules, and how the forum works. :)

Good luck, and glad to have you with us.

Cheers.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #499 on: April 21, 2005, 03:16:02 AM »
Welcome to 40konline!

And the wording will be clarified in the next edit, after the Nid codex is out.

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