Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

Ah I see. A note to that effect wouldn't have gone amiss for those of us who don't play Eldar 

[Archon Khiraq(danceman)]

Got a few comments pertaining to undercosted HQ choices. They felt that they should cost like 15-20 points more due to innate special rules and the hallu-grenades.

[Rasmus]

Do you have any testing to back this up? Any comparison to other models? Or just a vague hunch?

I am sure the points can be corrected this way or that, but a change of 20 points needs to serious underpinnings.

[Archon Khiraq(danceman)]

I don't quite remember but there was mentions of the Autarch(similiar stat-line and have some nifty rules but cost 70pts) and the Archon which is 60pts and rather bare-boned though with better stats.

[Rasmus]

And that's the problem. Stats cost a LOT more than gear, but is often discounted on "package characters" in these lists. And stats are often not thought of as good as gear, which is completely wrong when you test it. Stats trump gear on any character.
But I will look into it.

[Archon Khiraq(danceman)]

Good point on the stats. The return from gear gets better as you buy them to a superior stat-line. The Autarch though has the same statline as the GH but then again comes with a standard 3+ save. Perhaps the proposed 15+ point change is too steep after all.

[benmannen]

Yeah, I agree, I think they are correctly priced. They end up costing more than Dark Eldar or Eldar HQs with the equipment needed... And they have lower stats...

[Rasmus]

It is also really hard to price things like "Dance of death" in with a character, as the effect is very different from that of a squad with the same rule. However, testing has born these points out rather well so far.
Of course, if you test and find any tweaks needed, please don't hesitate to post it here, but be prepared to post your testing too. There is a lot of "this should be X points cheaper and that should be Y points more expensive" when you make these kinds of list, often under vague assumptions or non-tested conditions.

[Archon Khiraq(danceman)]

Yes, I agree. Since the club I'm going to join is letting me play the list, although, for now, not in tournaments but this might change as the club gets more familiar with the list(as that tend to be the most common arguement against alternate lists). It's worth noting that they are liking the rest of the list very much and some even recognised it from the old CJ codex. Don't expect any battreps or so just yet though, have to buy stuff and get things rolling again. Strange how it seems like a good idea to sell off your minis... All that work, gone. Ah well, regret just means it is worth getting it all back together.

[Shadows Revenge]

My question is for Ramus, and why the exclusion of the personal teleporter from the CJ PDF??? When I tried Harlies when it came out, It proved invaluable for getting the Solitare and Death Jesters around into range of targets.

And for others who have tried this codex. I am interesting in playtesting it, but I would like to ask how everyone get their solitare to the opponent? Without the personal teleporter, or the option to take a venom. The only way I can see getting him around the table is kicking one harlie squad out of their transport and let him hijack it, but then all I got is a troop choice sitting on my home objective. Is this how you all do it???

[Wyldhunt]

The only way I've managed to get the Solitaire into close combat was to deepstrike him using the Great Harlie's special mask.  That or playing on a small table so that I was facing less ranged fire power and had less distance to cover.

[Rasmus]

During playtesting it was discovered that the personal transporter, and even equipping him with a flightbelt, made the Solitaire so hideously expensive when you measured the effectiveness of him that noone would take him. We had instances where the playtesting showed him to be 350 points or even slightly higher when adding all that mobility to the massive killingpower and sustainability. So it had to be scaled, a lot of options were dropped, and in the shift from 3rd ed to 4th ed more were dropped, and in the current revision we opted for a more affordable scaled Solitaire rather than the monster that would cost 300 points.

[benmannen]

Since anything except the Solitaire has to deep strike within 6" of an enemy unit they tend to mishap a lot. If you don't deep strike aggressively you can just as well get a Venom for your Harlequins... In my last two games I rolled a bit unlucky and lost all 6 units total... Which was about 400p in each match.

I loose one unit on average per match... I deep strike the Solitaire and 2 units of Harlequins... It's a risky business being part of a Harlequin troupe

They could really use a 1d6" scatter item, or a reroll of the scatter direction.

But it's fun to deep strike so I'll keep killing my own troops

[Shadows Revenge]

Interesting. I guess I have to try the codex out this sunday and give you my thoughts.

[Wyldhunt]

Since anything except the Solitaire has to deep strike within 6" of an enemy unit they tend to mishap a lot. If you don't deep strike aggressively you can just as well get a Venom for your Harlequins... In my last two games I rolled a bit unlucky and lost all 6 units total... Which was about 400p in each match.

I loose one unit on average per match... I deep strike the Solitaire and 2 units of Harlequins... It's a risky business being part of a Harlequin troupe

They could really use a 1d6" scatter item, or a reroll of the scatter direction.

But it's fun to deep strike so I'll keep killing my own troops

Our version of deepstriking is scary useful if you wind up in a god place.  The risk of winding up someplace where you can get shot at or of mishapping just seems like a part of balancing that to me.

[666_Mutley_666]

will you be doing a revised list for 6th? or will you be waiting for the new eldar book?

[Irisado]

will you be doing a revised list for 6th? or will you be waiting for the new eldar book?

You might want to take a look at this thread for an answer to that question.

[Sarenyon]

So I was looking at the EO 5th ed codex: harlequins, and thinking of how it would be updated. One question I had was with some of the war gear for the Venoms, and other equipment. I know it goes against the original CJ and the original WD fluff, but should the harlies have more access to DE equipment?

Example- Venoms: DE one at 10 more points comes with what pg 91 of DE Codex says... but, the Harlie version has twin-linked shuri-cats as standard. Should the new codex have the options for DE or Craftworld weapons, basically being able to take the splinters or the shuri-cats and both having the option to upgrade to the cannon. Also, I think it should come with the Flickerfield (though jink save is the same, but that is cover, not invul). Obviously the Harlie Venom would not have the extra cannon, as that area is available for the two more transport capacity. But shoudl they also be able to get Night shields, blades, sanres, and retrofire jets?

Jetbikes: Obviously the Codex: Harlequins jetbike is the Craftworld version, but should Harlies get access to Reaver Jetbikes with the availability of bladevanes and inbuilt splinter rifle?

I do not think Harlies would have an adversion to using the poison in splinter weapons, or blades for that matter, as shrieker cannons and kisses are just plain nasty. Also, it's been documented in the fluff that the Harlies recruit from the dark city.

Also, looking at the Hallucinogen grenades fluff. I think what the EO Codex: Harlequinns is trying to do is give the Shadowseer and GH plasma grenades as per the Shadowseer out of Codex: Eldar and Codex: DE. However, the fluff points is very similar to DE Phantasm Grenade Launcher which gives the DE character with this offensive and defensive grenade capabilities. This would be cool, but the war-gear cost for an Archon is pretty steep. If the GH and SS were to have something similar to the Phantasm GL, what would the increase in their base points be for basically the ability to have defensive grenades? 5, 10, 15 more points?

I'm going to go back through the thread, but Rasmus, how did you arrive at the point cost for Harlie Jetbikes? When comparing it to the cost of a Warlock Jetbike, it seems a bit too much. Maybe a reduction of 2 or 3 points?

Thanks for your thoughts.

[benmannen]

Hello, I have started working on updating the EO Harlequins list. I emailed Rasmus about it a while back and he said noone is working on it so I figured I would give it a shot.

With the new Codex: Eldar and 40k 6th ed out it is starting to feel very outdated and need some major work.

I'll try to keep it as close to the EO list as possible and not add too much, I have an idea for a single fun Heavy Support addition maybe and also all Masques need to be fixed. Most were unplayable. I've read up on Harlequins wherever GW has mentioned them, Citadel Journal, Codex: Dark Eldar, IA 11, novels, and of course Codex: Eldar. So I've got a good feel for how GW wants them to play in a battle, just the fact that they did not get any new upgrades such as Haywire Grenades or the ability Battle Focus...

Anyone that wants to help out playtesting and proof reading? I have a small team of serious gamers that will do all to find loop holes and break the list. But they are not Harlequins players and it would be good to have someone that played the EO list playtesting it too. PM me if you want to help out.

[Wyldhunt]

Hello, I have started working on updating the EO Harlequins list. I emailed Rasmus about it a while back and he said noone is working on it so I figured I would give it a shot.

With the new Codex: Eldar and 40k 6th ed out it is starting to feel very outdated and need some major work.

I'll try to keep it as close to the EO list as possible and not add too much, I have an idea for a single fun Heavy Support addition maybe and also all Masques need to be fixed. Most were unplayable. I've read up on Harlequins wherever GW has mentioned them, Citadel Journal, Codex: Dark Eldar, IA 11, novels, and of course Codex: Eldar. So I've got a good feel for how GW wants them to play in a battle, just the fact that they did not get any new upgrades such as Haywire Grenades or the ability Battle Focus...

Anyone that wants to help out playtesting and proof reading? I have a small team of serious gamers that will do all to find loop holes and break the list. But they are not Harlequins players and it would be good to have someone that played the EO list playtesting it too. PM me if you want to help out.

Cool! I look forward to seeing what you come up with.  I'm not sure I can do much in the way of playtesting these days, but I'd love to see what you come up with.