News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!  (Read 138512 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline chrsjxn

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 118
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #840 on: November 9, 2005, 02:52:22 PM »
Seems to me, fluff-wise, that the Aspect Warriors would already be very dedicated... to their aspect, and, as such, would be much less likely to join up with a Harlequin Troupe than the more lowly guardians.

Offline Rasmus

  • The Ratcatcher
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33046
  • Country: 00
  • Lost Roads are now found!
    • 40kOnline
  • Armies: Squats
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #841 on: November 9, 2005, 04:00:02 PM »
That's why you can't take Aspect Warriors as allies, after all. Neither can you take Wyches, for the same reason. And they are crazy.

Update posted; Hit and fade re-written. Stormglove altered and Warlocks changed.

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

Offline Farceseer Syranaul

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5576
  • Country: us
  • The Redux Dentist
  • Armies: The Buanneth Fhirin
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #842 on: November 9, 2005, 07:55:53 PM »
A few corrections may be needed.  Hit and Fade says "All Harlequins wounds on 4+.....blah blah"  It should be "All Harlequins wound on 4+...."  This way the sentence is worded to be the action of wounding. 
     The Stormglove will always wound on roll of 5+.  But hit and fade says the wound on a 4+.  You will want to clarify this.  Stormglove also says "Models hit by a harlequin using a Stormglove may not take a saving throw."  This should be "....May not take a normal saving throw."   
     Now onto the Shadowseer and Warlocks.  The Shadowseer can have a bodyguard of 1-3 Warlocks.  See below.  See where below?  You should say something like See Harlequin Troupe Character options below.  Something like that.  Can a Shadowseer with bodyguards take a jetbike wargear?  If so can the bodyguards also take that wargear?  Also can you take the max bodyguards and put 3 Warlocks in 3 separate units?  I would suggest that the Warlock bodyguards be named  Benathai, and you may have up to 4 having each one give the Shadowseer the powers of the Familiar Group wargear.  Then be rid of the wargear altogether. 
     On a different note.  Has any one tried to capitalise on the Shrieker cannons and bio-ammo?  Like puting a Great Harlequin and Shadowseer on a jetbike with a shrieker cannons, and the bio-ammo.  Join them up with a Harlequin Troupe with a leader with bio-ammo.  Then have some Death Jesters join the same.  Something to that sorts.  I am tring to see it that would be abuse or not.

~Siranaul

P.S. Rasmas, the date on the EO Harlequin revision needs to be updated as well.
« Last Edit: November 9, 2005, 07:58:00 PM by Siranaul »
"Simple Changes, and Small Additions"
"It is easier to add something than to remove something."

Quote from: Starrakatt, LolDeer of Doom
So, maybe I'm being dense here

Offline Rasmus

  • The Ratcatcher
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33046
  • Country: 00
  • Lost Roads are now found!
    • 40kOnline
  • Armies: Squats
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #843 on: November 10, 2005, 03:05:46 AM »
I will get on those. Mostly typos, it appears.

the s is dropped, and wording on stormglove tightened.
The warlock-entry has been amended.

The date? No, it was written yesterday, 05-11-09, so it is correct. It is not my fault you are reading it backwards. :)

As for the shriekers. Yes, but it never pans out. The characters tend to kill more in hth than with the guns, but with bikes I tend to try to give out shriekers whenever I can. Shriekrs have bio-ammo too, you don't add them later on.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 03:15:32 AM by Rasmus »

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

Offline Farceseer Syranaul

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5576
  • Country: us
  • The Redux Dentist
  • Armies: The Buanneth Fhirin
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #844 on: November 10, 2005, 03:24:23 AM »
But you can equip an IC with a shurikin pistol and give it bio-ammo and toss him on a shrieker jet bike.  Sounds fun, if I would ever get the chance.
"Simple Changes, and Small Additions"
"It is easier to add something than to remove something."

Quote from: Starrakatt, LolDeer of Doom
So, maybe I'm being dense here

Offline Rasmus

  • The Ratcatcher
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33046
  • Country: 00
  • Lost Roads are now found!
    • 40kOnline
  • Armies: Squats
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #845 on: November 10, 2005, 04:59:29 AM »
Of course. It cuts the range down a bit, but on a bike it is not such a big issue. Yes, it is a lot of fun too.

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

Offline Farceseer Syranaul

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5576
  • Country: us
  • The Redux Dentist
  • Armies: The Buanneth Fhirin
Phase-field
« Reply #846 on: November 10, 2005, 10:01:22 AM »
I have a few ideas to bring the Phase-field out of its uselessness.

1) The Phase-field adds 2d6 inches to the movement of the Independent Character.  Cannot be worn with a Flight Belt or be used with a Jet Bike.  Nor may the Independent Character be able to use the Fleet of Foot special rule.

2) Gives the Independent Character a 4+ Invulnerable save.  Idea taken from the Necrons.

3) Can be used as the Warp Spider's Jump Pack.

4) Any combination of the above.

    Since I think that all Eldar should have funny rules, because they all use planning, timing, and finesse.  I would give the 1st idea something like.  "Should the rolled distance place the independent character within 1 inch from or into an enemy squad.  That character catches the enemy by surprise.  In such an occasion an Independent Character equipped with a Phase Shifter may still shoot and charge, and have +2 attacks on the charge instead of the normal +1.
     Any other ideas?

~Siranaul
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 10:52:52 AM by Siranaul »
"Simple Changes, and Small Additions"
"It is easier to add something than to remove something."

Quote from: Starrakatt, LolDeer of Doom
So, maybe I'm being dense here

Offline Rasmus

  • The Ratcatcher
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33046
  • Country: 00
  • Lost Roads are now found!
    • 40kOnline
  • Armies: Squats
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #847 on: November 10, 2005, 10:15:25 AM »
You are talking about the Phase-field?
I often wondered why GW introduced that at all, when the flightbelt would have done just as well. Personally I would just as soon drop it in favour of the classsic flightbelt, but since it is in CJ 39 it is left in the Revsion as well.
Your first idea seems to make the field worse than it is right now. What would be your motivation for that?

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

Offline englishharlie

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 129
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #848 on: November 10, 2005, 10:32:28 AM »
How is 6+2D6 worse than 3D6??

I thought it'd be nice to have the movement be freely allocated, so use some in movement phase and then some in assault phase. But pop-up(out) attacks from DJs would then become all too common and the cries of cheese would drown out even the harlequin laughter.

You could make it so that on a max roll (max distance must then be moved aswell) that the cover save is increased by 1. The Dj has moved so far that the enemy have trouble pinpointing his exact new location etc etc.

Random thoughts....

English

Offline Farceseer Syranaul

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5576
  • Country: us
  • The Redux Dentist
  • Armies: The Buanneth Fhirin
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #849 on: November 10, 2005, 10:35:48 AM »

1) The Phase-field adds 2d6 inches to the movement of the Independent Character.  Cannot be worn with a Flight Belt or be used with a Jet Bike.  Nor may the Independent Character be able to use the Fleet of Foot special rule.

Yes, Phase-field.

The 2d6 inches would be added to the 6 inch move that all footsloggers have naturally.  So instead of a randome 3d6 and be stuck with the 3 ones you rolled.  You would have 6 inches plus the 2 ones you rolled.

~Siranaul
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 10:53:29 AM by Siranaul »
"Simple Changes, and Small Additions"
"It is easier to add something than to remove something."

Quote from: Starrakatt, LolDeer of Doom
So, maybe I'm being dense here

Offline Rasmus

  • The Ratcatcher
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33046
  • Country: 00
  • Lost Roads are now found!
    • 40kOnline
  • Armies: Squats
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #850 on: November 10, 2005, 11:17:17 AM »
I missed that part. Yeah, that would be better. It would mean a pretty steep increase in cost either way.

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

Offline Tarrin the Space Marine

  • Sullied Smug
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2589
  • Country: england
  • It's ok to be scared...
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #851 on: November 10, 2005, 11:50:39 AM »
i like the phase field as it is. but if you want to improve it two ideas spring to mind.

1: increase to 4d6. mad but so scary, and means people might take the risk of the poor dice instead of safety of a rocket pack.

price 30points.

2: make it into a veil of darkness type thing. can disappear and deep strike , with scatter and all that. can assault from it. makes it really risky but really effective and really fun. as its just the one guy then not so bad as whole unit, but benefits are worth the risks . if someone wants to port their 210pt solitaire let them.

cost 40 points
However, everything about Tarrin is unfair and should be sanctioned with extreme prejudice.

The Globals have issued a 2:1 ruling that yes, yes everything about Tarrin is indeed unfair. We have also been sullied merely by contemplating this.

Offline englishharlie

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 129
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #852 on: November 10, 2005, 11:57:53 AM »
Well it depends on how well you think the current phase works. Personally I don't like the idea of being able to get 18" whilst having the risk of 3". Ok so the average is greater than 6" but when do you see the average when you need it e.g. Charged 6 CSMs with 7 harlies, 1 dead CSM, 3 dead harlies, CSM swept me up. So no average roll there then!!

So yeah whilst it might seem like a big change it all depends on how useful the phase was in the first place. Personally as it's big risk I don't take it and so making it 6+2D6" would make me consider using it. I think it's worth testing at 15 points at least, I just can't see it breaking anything is all.

As for my ideas they are un-thought through ideas nothing more. They're for consideration and then either modding and using or outright binning, which is where most of my ideas end up before they even leave my head!

\/ Tarrin: Those ideas sound nice but the cost is way too much, not saying the cost is wrong but just too high for my taste. I do think though that the 4D6 could be cheaper, the DS sounds right but again it's almost 2 harlies or a DJ, too expensive.

English

Offline Farceseer Syranaul

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5576
  • Country: us
  • The Redux Dentist
  • Armies: The Buanneth Fhirin
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #853 on: November 10, 2005, 12:02:42 PM »
I missed that part. Yeah, that would be better. It would mean a pretty steep increase in cost either way.

     I don't think so.  Unless you allowed the use of Fleet of Foot like the Flight Belt does.  At most it would be 20 points.  15 sounds good to me, as there is still the slight uncertainty with the roll of the dice.  Keep the difficult terrain rules you have with the Flight Belt.  To help balance, and price.
    So a recap of what we have:
1) +2d6 to movement
2) Flight Belt rules for difficult terrain.
3) Can't be worn with a Flight Belt or Jetbike
     Options to be considered
1) Fleet of Foot or no
2) Invulnerable save or no
3) Warp Spider move during assault or no.  (I'm think a NO, but we can discuss it)
4) Surprise Assult or no

i like the phase field as it is. but if you want to improve it two ideas spring to mind.

1: increase to 4d6. mad but so scary, and means people might take the risk of the poor dice instead of safety of a rocket pack.

price 30points.

2: make it into a veil of darkness type thing. can disappear and deep strike , with scatter and all that. can assault from it. makes it really risky but really effective and really fun. as its just the one guy then not so bad as whole unit, but benefits are worth the risks . if someone wants to port their 210pt solitaire let them.

cost 40 points
    I thought about that also, but as the Harlequins are the HtH masters, and you can't assult after deepstriking.  I wouldn't think that the purists out there coughRasmuscough would go for it.  

~Siranaul
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 02:17:02 PM by Siranaul »
"Simple Changes, and Small Additions"
"It is easier to add something than to remove something."

Quote from: Starrakatt, LolDeer of Doom
So, maybe I'm being dense here

Offline chrsjxn

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 118
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #854 on: November 10, 2005, 02:13:54 PM »
     I thought about that also, but as the Harlequins are the HtH masters, and you can't assult after deepstriking.  I wouldn't think that the purists out there would go for it.  coughRasmuscough

Lictors always deploy via deepstrike, and they get to assault afterwards...
So there is a precedent.

Though I personally prefer the 6+2d6 move myself. Especially as that is statistically better than the flight belt, though more unpredictable.

Offline SeaMonKeigh

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Dakka Dakka Dakka
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #855 on: November 10, 2005, 03:08:28 PM »
I like the veil of Darkness idea.  I think you could incorporate it into the fluffy parts by describing it as an Eldar version of the Ronco Personal Portable Warp Portal TM.  This would allow the IC to zoom around the board.  I think the deep strike and scatter risks (imagine loosing your solitaire because he scattered off the board) would offset the benefit.
You could also have a 'Super Size' version that would allow the IC to transport a squad with him/her.

My other thought is to have it as a wargear item that would save the IC from insta-death attacks.  For example if they are about to be killed by a rampaging Dreadnought's powerfist, the Phase-field kicks in and randomly jumps our hero to safety by 2D6 and a scatter dice from their current location.
Or in a less random manner it "phases him out of real space preventing his untimely demise, but at a cost.  The character takes a wound.
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.
Then it's fun and games without depth perception.

Offline Rasmus

  • The Ratcatcher
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33046
  • Country: 00
  • Lost Roads are now found!
    • 40kOnline
  • Armies: Squats
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #856 on: November 11, 2005, 03:07:57 AM »
I think reintroducing the old 2nd ed Displacer-field is a bad idea, but making the field more usable with 6+2D6 is ok at a pointincrease. As for the no-instakill; this is again lifting out something that is such a major weakness for the Harlequins - most other armies have or will have units/characters you cannot instakill, but the Harlequins cannot have one (save the spiritwalker) and I think this adds to the flair, and forces you to plan a bit more. It is part of the character of the army, as it were. See?

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

Offline englishharlie

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 129
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #857 on: November 11, 2005, 05:03:03 AM »
Totally agree with the instakill thing. It isonly the spiritwalker that is safe from instakill and this is the way it should stay. Personally I don't think the spiritwalker should be in the list but I really don't wanna start that, I'm happy to not select it and be done with it. The idea of having each and every model instakillable is good for me, I like the challenge and am not playing harlies for my win record.

So no anti-instakill whatever, nice idea but no.

As for 6+2D6, I don't see an increase as necessary IMO, ok so it's more reliable than the original but the question is was the original costed correctly?? Personal opinion is no, 15 points was too expensive for the risk and lack of FoF, so IMO 15 points with 6+2D6 and no FoF would be just fine.

English

Offline Farceseer Syranaul

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5576
  • Country: us
  • The Redux Dentist
  • Armies: The Buanneth Fhirin
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #858 on: November 11, 2005, 05:57:24 PM »
Let's compare the Flight Belt and the Phase-field.

Flight Belt:
1) Has a 12 inch base move.
2) Ignores terrain.
3) User can Fleet of Foot .
4) Can Deepstrike.
5) Flight Belt Troupes can use the Pack Grenade Launcher.
6) Costs 20 points for Independent Characters.
7) May cause a wound if movement stops in terrain.
8 ) Has a better chance of surviving than others in the above circumstance.

Phase-field:
1) Has a 6+2d6 inch base move.
2) Ignores terrain.
3) Can't use Fleet of Foot.  (Yet)
4) Doesn't have to worry about dangerous terrain tests.
5) Costs 15 points for Independent Characters.
6) Must nominate direction before rolling for movement.  (For now)

     Both have a possible move of 18 inches, but the Flight Belt, with the Fleet of Foot, will most often move farther.  However, you can still shoot when using the Phase-field.  Since the Harlequins are the "assult masters" shooting isn't their thing.  I personally would like to see more firearm options, just to have the options there, but that has already been discussed.  I also really don't like having to nominate what direction I want my guys to go before rolling for movement.  All in all.  Unless you put in something like the ability to always to move, even while stuck in combat.  15 points is right. 
     If we were to make an elite unit based on this.  Would you put some special trick like the Flight Belt Troupe's Pack Greade Launcher?  I was thinking of a poloarm weapon that shot a laser in the shooting phase and gave a +2 to strength in the assult phase.  Maybe call it a Riveblade.  I know.....I know.  What are your ideas?

~ Siranaul
« Last Edit: November 11, 2005, 05:59:10 PM by Siranaul »
"Simple Changes, and Small Additions"
"It is easier to add something than to remove something."

Quote from: Starrakatt, LolDeer of Doom
So, maybe I'm being dense here

Offline Rasmus

  • The Ratcatcher
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33046
  • Country: 00
  • Lost Roads are now found!
    • 40kOnline
  • Armies: Squats
Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #859 on: November 12, 2005, 05:16:57 AM »
That adds a new unit, which is something the revision is not about though, so it would have to be something separate. However, the field itself can be modified. 6+2D6 without FoF seems ok, as it adds some flexibility for an IC.

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

 


Powered by EzPortal