Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!

[Alex of Xen]

I've stopped playing Harlies for a while now, but I keep getting the e-mails about this thread and once again my interest is peaked.  Some suggestions that might be worth hearing, all of which are trying to keep within the theme of the CJ lists and/or 2nd Ed Harlies (as those are the two versions Im most familiar with).

-I prefer the original story background for the Shadowseers with them playing the role of Fate as opposed to "stimulating" the audiance with their powers.  It was much more badass that way.  As for the benethai?  Perhaps a Warlock retinue bestowing passive abilities similar to the retinue of an Inquisitor or even a regular Farseer's bodyguard.

-Masques are a really cool idea.  But they should probably be similar to the Kindred Traits of the Kroot Mercs.  In that the all Harlequins get x ability at y cost per model.  Example: Masque of Awesomeness, All harlequins benefit from Furious Charge however if they're within charge range of an enemy that they dont wish to assault they must first pass a ld test or they will have to.  Or Masque of Shifting Shadows, all Harlequins benefit from the Hidden Set-Up rule even during normal games and may make a Scout move without revealing what unit they are.  However the enemy will always get the first turn. 

-Death Jesters staying Elite.  Now here are some changes from the CJ but I propose that they have a Normal Trouper's stats except with BS 4 and I 5.  And instead of a Power blades their Shrieker Canon comes with a built in Executioner.  Switching the weapon out with others would be cheaper (because they'd be sacrificing that S 5 power weapon, but they'd serve a more defined purpose).

--Simplifying the core Harlequin special rules.  In keeping along with the simpler is better theme of 4th Ed. here are some suggestions.
   Preternatural Dexterity: All Harlequins benefit from the Fleet special rule and have an Invunerable save of a 6, even against shooting attacks.
   Flight Belt: Harlequins have a 3" attack radius instead of 2" and ignore difficult terrain when moving and assaulting.  Their Invulnerable save becomes a 4+ in assault.
   Holo-field: All succesfull to-hit rolls against a Harlequin must be re-rolled against a Harlequin, in both shooting and assaults.  In addition any Guess range weapons will automatically scatter, even if a Hit result is rolled.  D-fields DONT force a re-roll, they are just ONLY hit on a 6 (price would likely have to go up for that wargear).
 
-Lose Hit and Fade.

-Mimes would benefit from Preternatural Dexterity but not Flip Belts or Holo-fields.  Instead they'll have Dusk-fields that make it so that anyone wishing to shoot at them will have to roll as if it were night fight.  A points increase will likely be needed.

-Master Mime should have a stat line lower than the Great Harlies.

-Models armed with Harle Kisses benefit from Rending.  May still not be combined with Power blades (except for that additional attack).

-Keep Rive Blades as Power Weapon that auto kills on to wound rolls of 6.  And no matter what toughness they will be wounded on a roll of a 6.

-I envisioned Harlequins as the Eldar Daemonhunters, in particular they're akin to the Greyknights themselves.  As such they can be taken as allies, but can't take a whole lot of allies themselves (greyknights cant take SM allies, only Guard.  And although it would make sense for the imperium to be able to call on any old guard regiment it doesnt flow quite so well with the Harlies.)  Instead of the current slightly convoluted rules for Eldar allies their should just be a new unit.  So I present:
   Eldar Chorus.  The Chorus are well, the chorus, they sing along with the dances.  Composed of aspiring Harlequins culled from the many aspects of Eldar society, that either aren't ready to be mimes just yet or arent needed to be.  They would have the statlines of a DE Warrior (because any Craftworlders would be in a more warlike state of mind, as though they were in their aspect identity and it would only be natural that their skills will have improved because of it) but they could be armed with shuriken catapults or shuripistols and ccws.  For special weapons they would get different Edlar instruments that could prove usefull on the battle (similar to the old Eldar musicians from long ago).  For each squad of Chorus you must first have a non compulsory Troupe squad, and yes the Chorus would take up a Troop slot of its own.

-Wraithlords should NOT require a Shadowseer but instead be 0-1.  New background: When available a Masque will make use of a Wraithlord to house the spirit of an especially praised Chorus member.  Entombed within the massive frame their new role is to provide deep emanating psionic music that acts to stimulate the audiance of the dance, accompanied by spectacular light emissions and special effects projected from the great machine (essentially fulfilling the fluff capacity that the CJ Shadowseer did).  At least one Chorus squad must be present to field a Harlequin Wraithlord.

-Looted Vehicles.  Although I'm not a big fan of them, they do have a historical presidence so I think they work.

Their, I've waxed poetic for long enough now.  You can go back to your regular broadcast.

[Rasmus]

-Masques are a really cool idea.  But they should probably be similar to the Kindred Traits of the Kroot Mercs.  In that the all Harlequins get x ability at y cost per model.  Example: Masque of Awesomeness, All harlequins benefit from Furious Charge however if they're within charge range of an enemy that they dont wish to assault they must first pass a ld test or they will have to.  Or Masque of Shifting Shadows, all Harlequins benefit from the Hidden Set-Up rule even during normal games and may make a Scout move without revealing what unit they are.  However the enemy will always get the first turn. 

   That was tried initially, but the costs started gaining complexity, and this method was instead chosen to keep things simple.

-Death Jesters staying Elite.  Now here are some changes from the CJ but I propose that they have a Normal Trouper's stats except with BS 4 and I 5.  And instead of a Power blades their Shrieker Canon comes with a built in Executioner.  Switching the weapon out with others would be cheaper (because they'd be sacrificing that S 5 power weapon, but they'd serve a more defined purpose).

   Thisi s not represented on the models though, not at all. Powerblades are small things that the model could conceivably have on them without it being too aparent, but the executioner is just a whole nother ballgame. I think we should try to stick wo WYSIWYG, at least as basic loadouts go. Executioners as options might be more interesting, though.

--Simplifying the core Harlequin special rules.  In keeping along with the simpler is better theme of 4th Ed. here are some suggestions.
   Preternatural Dexterity: All Harlequins benefit from the Fleet special rule and have an Invunerable save of a 6, even against shooting attacks.
   Flight Belt: Harlequins have a 3" attack radius instead of 2" and ignore difficult terrain when moving and assaulting.  Their Invulnerable save becomes a 4+ in assault.
   Holo-field: All succesfull to-hit rolls against a Harlequin must be re-rolled against a Harlequin, in both shooting and assaults.  In addition any Guess range weapons will automatically scatter, even if a Hit result is rolled.  D-fields DONT force a re-roll, they are just ONLY hit on a 6 (price would likely have to go up for that wargear).

   The holo-field makes things a lot more complicated than a coversave. Imagine a large battle and having to tell your opponent that every shot he hits in the entire army against the Harlequins have to be re-rolled? It would take forever.
   In honestly, the simplest way to handle all of this is just to combine the flip-belt save and the holo-field save to a single invulnerable save. How does that sound to all of you? 5+ across the board? But then, in all simplicity, if would work against everything, to not confuse the issue any further.

 

-Lose Hit and Fade.

  Ok. Some math then.
   Without hit and fade 10 Harlequins without special weapons charge an equal number of marines (in this case 17 of them). Let's assume that all get within killing-distance and can thus launch their 40 attacks (imagine that at +1 attack as per the suggestions above... lots of dice...) Now of those a total of 26 will hit, and out of those 8 wound. This results in 2.9, or 3 wounds unsaved. That's about 45 points. Now the marines hit back. 14 marines kill 2 Harlequins, or about 50 points. So far it looks ok, even though it does not bode well.
   If the marines charge, the Harlequins still manage to kill 3 of them before they get to strike, but with the counterblow is nastier, killing 4 harlequins, with a 5+ cc-save. If the marines have frag-grenades the numbers are bleaker; Harlequins killing 48 points of marines while the marines kill 122 points. No, you think, what's the problem? Equal points overall, right, and the marines had the edge with the fraggrenades? Seems fair, and with special weapons the numbers shift to the favour of the Harlequin. Great huh?
  That's not quite right though. The Harlequins are supposed to be really great att cc, and this is balanced by a lack of firepower. The Marines are to be a little above so-so level at both, but still manage to kill their points against Harlequins. In shooting it is a slaughter, as the harlequins can kill2 marines witha round of concentrated shooting, whereas the marines will kill 15 Harlies, or 1.5 times the points back, even with a 4+ coversave.
   Hit and fade does not help the Harlequins when they get charged, as the rules is there as an incentive to plan and launch raids rather than to get charged, or get into protracted wars. With the current hit and fade the first charge would have hit 35 iunstead of 26, and wounded 11 instead of 8, killing another marine. Now those who scream that this is wildly unbalanced, pleased, before you do, run the numbers on this, and show me how the Harlequins can remain a potent force in cc, without shifting them over to a firepower-army, without some such rule. Please?

-Mimes would benefit from Preternatural Dexterity but not Flip Belts or Holo-fields.  Instead they'll have Dusk-fields that make it so that anyone wishing to shoot at them will have to roll as if it were night fight.  A points increase will likely be needed.

  This would be increasing complexity again. We are trying to tonedown the special rules, not add more of them at this point. Besides, wit ha Shadowseer you can get that effect for your favourite Mime-troupe.

-Master Mime should have a stat line lower than the Great Harlies.

   He does, on all counts except S and T... He also costs more. What are you reading?

-Models armed with Harle Kisses benefit from Rending.  May still not be combined with Power blades (except for that additional attack).

   In addition to or instead of their current rule?

-Keep Rive Blades as Power Weapon that auto kills on to wound rolls of 6.  And no matter what toughness they will be wounded on a roll of a 6.

    At what point-increase?

-I envisioned Harlequins as the Eldar Daemonhunters, in particular they're akin to the Greyknights themselves.  As such they can be taken as allies, but can't take a whole lot of allies themselves (greyknights cant take SM allies, only Guard.  And although it would make sense for the imperium to be able to call on any old guard regiment it doesnt flow quite so well with the Harlies.)  Instead of the current slightly convoluted rules for Eldar allies their should just be a new unit.  So I present:

   They currently can't take that many allies, and not anything overly powerful either.
   The current allies-rule is supposed to mimic the Harlequin ally-rules for other Eldar armies, but it has to be limited to avoid a lot of powergaming. How is a limited choice with limited options convoluted? Please elaborate.

   Eldar Chorus.  The Chorus are well, the chorus, they sing along with the dances.  Composed of aspiring Harlequins culled from the many aspects of Eldar society, that either aren't ready to be mimes just yet or arent needed to be.  They would have the statlines of a DE Warrior (because any Craftworlders would be in a more warlike state of mind, as though they were in their aspect identity and it would only be natural that their skills will have improved because of it) but they could be armed with shuriken catapults or shuripistols and ccws.  For special weapons they would get different Edlar instruments that could prove usefull on the battle (similar to the old Eldar musicians from long ago).  For each squad of Chorus you must first have a non compulsory Troupe squad, and yes the Chorus would take up a Troop slot of its own.

   This would just make fora cheaper better mime, and adds nothing of the Allies-feel.

-Wraithlords should NOT require a Shadowseer but instead be 0-1.

    The shadowseer is there to make sure that the wraithlord is not used in small-point battles, as he/she tends to drain a bit of points him/herself. A safeguard, as it were. And the spiritwalker is 0-1... Again, what are you reading? Are you readin the 3rd ed revision? If so, stop, and read the 4th ed one instead.




Now, it seems I have unfortunately taken the role of antagonist here. You all have some great ideas, and it seems I am shooting them down. This is not an indication that your ideas are bad as such, but that they either.
a) are poorly tested, or thought through, and would unbalance the game in ways you have not thought of yet.
b) breaks the Harlequins from the traditional feel that the Revision was set up to preserve. Novelty in its glory and all, but it is not what the Revision should be.

From the beginning I got a lot of feedback, and it formed the Revision into the basis of what it is currently. The majority of playtesting was performed by me and my group, and I have assumed the responsibility to safeguard the integrity of the list, as well as edit the changes that we have thought up. While the Community has helped form the Revision, I have been the one who have had to maintain it. As such, I am also stuck defending the views of previous contributors and playtesters, even though the ideas were not mine, against ideas that would thwart their hard work and unbalance or overpower (alternatively underpower) the ideas and thoughts they had.
   I don't want to have to do that, and I hope none of you are taking it personally, but really, the Revision has found a state where it is pretty solid right now, and major shifts like the introduction of new units, major changes of rules, introducing new complexities and setting precedents (yes, it is one of my principal worries) would make the list worse, not better. And I am not talking about a list-power worse, but a playablility and integrity-worse. I hope you can understand this.

   In keeping with this I ask that before you make suggestions to radically change something; please, think it through first, do the math on it, playtest it and then tell it to us for consideration. It is easy to spout out ideas, but it leaves me in the uncomfortable position of having to pick them apart, something I am not enjoying, currently. Please have some sympathy for this.

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

I like the idea of a standard Inv save across the board, would makes things a lot simpler. Perhaps, quins and characters get 4+ Inv and mimes get 5+ inv, to balance out point costs. would make the D-field really good, but a price hike would cover that.

If we do this, then we can remove the Always in Cover rule, as we would not need it. This then removes the problems with been charged by units with frag grenades, so supports the excellent nature of our troops in hand to hand, noone would want to fight them as we should go first in all circumstances. perhaps to ensure this, all quins should have init 6 or better and mimes 5. With the new rules needing to only kill the front line so opponent cannot fight back we have a winning scenario.

how is teh other hit and fade playtesting going, extra atack and all. the extra attack would benefit with what i stated above. balance in offense and defence.

chorus? no thanks, it a cumbersome idea. still think allies are a bad idea, as they stand now.
1 unit of specials would be nicer than guardians.

no one is complaining at you playing devils advocate Rasmus, but these boards are for ideas, and discussion, and creative genius. maths and playtesting would lose that.
The list is getting there but my opinion is it has too much complexity, too many possibilities of really souping the army up to the point of silliness.

good work though

[Rasmus]

I like the idea of a standard Inv save across the board, would makes things a lot simpler. Perhaps, quins and characters get 4+ Inv and mimes get 5+ inv, to balance out point costs. would make the D-field really good, but a price hike would cover that.

   The mimes are currently not enjoying any save at all. Are you saying they should get one?
 

If we do this, then we can remove the Always in Cover rule, as we would not need it. This then removes the problems with been charged by units with frag grenades, so supports the excellent nature of our troops in hand to hand, noone would want to fight them as we should go first in all circumstances. perhaps to ensure this, all quins should have init 6 or better and mimes 5. With the new rules needing to only kill the front line so opponent cannot fight back we have a winning scenario.

   I am not sure about that, but it is a possibility.

how is teh other hit and fade playtesting going, extra atack and all. the extra attack would benefit with what i stated above. balance in offense and defence.

   It has not turned out well. Against marines they are not gaining their points back, more people are complaining about it within the group, and it takes longer to do (which surprised me) and against many other things they are now a vast overkill, something which the re-roll does not do (against things with less armour the added attacks simply sweeps away 2x their points, where the reroll just ensures equal footing, under the charge. When they get charged the extra attack kills off too many attackers to be sensible.

[Shas'Oink]

as a side, i thought, and was under the impression that mimes, were actually better trained than troupers, well, at least just trained in a different field, not worse trained.
they play the daemons, which, technically speaking should be more difficult than plaing the chorus roles, mentally and all. plus, they are under the direct command of the master mime, who himself is practically one stop off becoming a great harlequin. i dont think that the mimes should be any worse than the troupers in all honesty.

next. if you say the all over 5+ save, that drops survival rate even lower. if it counts as inv, then you still got weapons which can ignore them, fighting against grey knights would be a nightmare. plus the template rules would be lost, which i think add to the character. like i said earlier, i think just extending the save to combat, but keeping the downs of the cover save for shooting. so you have 4+ cover which becomes a  4+ inv in combat. to make things clearer, that should all be in the holo suit entry, not partly within the flip belt entry.

i agree with rasmus on the death jesters.

im still a bit dubious about the hit and fade, and im not sure if they need it. the fact that most harlequins, especially the characters have such a high WS, and they half the enemies WS means that they not only hit easier, but they also get hit less. im no maths wizz, but i think the hit and fade rules would be perceivind as OTT. especially if the dice really go your way and you end up getting 35-40 wounding hits (taking your example!). i think im gonna go test it out though, like you said.

i also agree with rasmus on the needing of shadowseers to take wraithlords.

[Rasmus]

as a side, i thought, and was under the impression that mimes, were actually better trained than troupers, well, at least just trained in a different field, not worse trained.

   In the RT they were trained in a different field, but with the web-release they were training-to-be-Harlequins, and this is what carried over into the Revision, as a secondary troupe-choice.

next. if you say the all over 5+ save, that drops survival rate even lower. if it counts as inv, then you still got weapons which can ignore them, fighting against grey knights would be a nightmare. plus the template rules would be lost, which i think add to the character. like i said earlier, i think just extending the save to combat, but keeping the downs of the cover save for shooting. so you have 4+ cover which becomes a  4+ inv in combat. to make things clearer, that should all be in the holo suit entry, not partly within the flip belt entry.

   "extending the save"? The cover save? There are not coversave in close combat. But the 4+ coversave (and template/blast) along with a 4++ save in cc is ok? Is that not a lot harder than the hit and fade? It increases the survivability by 16% overall, and would be a lot harder than the 16% increase in "to hit" (not To wound) for a trouper, I think.

im still a bit dubious about the hit and fade, and im not sure if they need it. the fact that most harlequins, especially the characters have such a high WS, and they half the enemies WS means that they not only hit easier, but they also get hit less. im no maths wizz, but i think the hit and fade rules would be perceivind as OTT. especially if the dice really go your way and you end up getting 35-40 wounding hits (taking your example!). i think im gonna go test it out though, like you said.

   The statistical chance of rolling 35-40 hits is not too bad, but wounding marines is still at 7-13 wounds, which is not too much, considering the points invested. 5+ to wound is really crippling the "awesomeness" of this CC-army. Had they been S4 overall the hit and fade would never be used at all.

[Shas'Oink]

yea, that 5s to wound is a bummer, and the reason you would need LOTS of attacks. i can your reasoning, which is why i want to test it out for myself. however, there are armies that you wouldnt need 5s to wound, but 4s. at which point the rule becomes overly weighted to the harlequins. at the end of the day, as they are specialists at chaos, we should be looking at their effects against chaos. and chaos, is not just chaos marines.... daemons, traitors etc....

in regards to the mimes; i hadnt realised that they changed the way they were doing them, (only have the rules for mimes from online, not the CJ44 article, where i assume this change was made).

   "extending the save"? The cover save? There are not coversave in close combat. But the 4+ coversave (and template/blast) along with a 4++ save in cc is ok? Is that not a lot harder than the hit and fade? It increases the survivability by 16% overall, and would be a lot harder than the 16% increase in "to hit" (not To wound) for a trouper, I think.

right, im a little confused by this sentance,,, i think... erm, what i am trying to suggest is that they harlies holo suit remains the same... in that they get a 4+ cover save from shooting, but it cant be used against temlate / blast / ord weapons or weapons which ignore cover, nor to save models from vehicles that are blown up. however, instead of the hit and fade, they are given the 4+ inv save in combat. yes, it might be harder than the hit and fade in one respect, but it also does not penalise SOME opponents just because they get wounded on 4+ rather than 5+. that would just encourage more people to use marines. of course, the save in combat, will only be for combat, so weapons which ignore inv saves would ignore their save, theres not so many of those though.

now, while your next arguemtn will probably be that the hit and fade would get combats over quicker you might want to consider the effects harlies can have on opponent leadership. they have several items which can reduce leadership or make the tests harder. meaning that its not all about killing the greatest number of models when you charge, but bout killing enough to make the enemy run, which they are then want to do. at which point the high Initiative will mean many are cought and killed, except for those pesky marines of course.

in reference to that, i would really consider a small change to the mask of fear, patroned by the troll 25. basically, the mask of fear gives a -2 to enemy leadership rather than a -1. this is basically to increase the chances of the enemy runing, and also because it seems many armies these days are almost entirely Ld 10, which they never used to be.

also, in reference to the harlies hitting range. you changed it to 3", however, the tyranids already have a precedent of this, when their rules changed, which were similar to the harlie ones, their range was changed to 4" rather than 2" (as opposed to your change to 3"). i think it should be changed to 4" too. firstly to stay in line with the other rule changes, and second to allow more models to be in range, giving more attacks, more wounds, more chances of enemy casualites, more chance for enemy to take the Ld test, more chance for them to fail and more chance of the harlies to catch and kill them...

all this using extensions or minor changes to existing rules rather than bringing in another new rule?!

[Rasmus]

yea, that 5s to wound is a bummer, and the reason you would need LOTS of attacks. i can your reasoning, which is why i want to test it out for myself. however, there are armies that you wouldnt need 5s to wound, but 4s. at which point the rule becomes overly weighted to the harlequins. at the end of the day, as they are specialists at chaos, we should be looking at their effects against chaos. and chaos, is not just chaos marines.... daemons, traitors etc....

   The majority of Chaos (CSM, Daemons and some of the traitors (mutants, hounds and spawns)) have T4 though. If we want to be specialist in fighting Chaos we should therefore be tooled to fight htings with T4 rather than T3, correct? Without bumping S to 4 it is simpler to make arule to make the to-wound-roll a bit easier, and this is what Hit and fade is, withing certain limitations.

right, im a little confused by this sentance,,, i think... erm, what i am trying to suggest is that they harlies holo suit remains the same... in that they get a 4+ cover save from shooting, but it cant be used against temlate / blast / ord weapons or weapons which ignore cover, nor to save models from vehicles that are blown up. however, instead of the hit and fade, they are given the 4+ inv save in combat. yes, it might be harder than the hit and fade in one respect, but it also does not penalise SOME opponents just because they get wounded on 4+ rather than 5+. that would just encourage more people to use marines. of course, the save in combat, will only be for combat, so weapons which ignore inv saves would ignore their save, theres not so many of those though.

   They are at 5+ right now, and it has worked out fine. It would be a shame to sacrifice hitting-power offencively to increase survivability (drop hit and fade for 4+ cc-save) for an army that does not have have the fluff for it, but rather has the fluff for lighting strikes and disappearing afterwards, not get in protracted wars.

in reference to that, i would really consider a small change to the mask of fear, patroned by the troll 25. basically, the mask of fear gives a -2 to enemy leadership rather than a -1. this is basically to increase the chances of the enemy runing, and also because it seems many armies these days are almost entirely Ld 10, which they never used to be.

   With the masks, greandes and such, is that really necessary. Most things run under Hit and fade as they are.

also, in reference to the harlies hitting range. you changed it to 3", however, the tyranids already have a precedent of this, when their rules changed, which were similar to the harlie ones, their range was changed to 4" rather than 2" (as opposed to your change to 3"). i think it should be changed to 4" too. firstly to stay in line with the other rule changes, and second to allow more models to be in range, giving more attacks, more wounds, more chances of enemy casualites, more chance for enemy to take the Ld test, more chance for them to fail and more chance of the harlies to catch and kill them...

   I made some playtesting on this when we started on the 4th ed rework, and it was really powerful, and 3" was more than enough. However, if you want to test it and see if it needs 4" then go ahead, but with models in Btb +3 ranks behind them (that's 3") you easily get an entire Harlequin troupe (as they are never more than 10).

[Shas'Oink]

well, its just that considering that their coherency is 4", it goes to reason that their hit range should also be 4". i mean, otherwise, when you are charging at the longer range, 5 - 6", then most of your guys are not going to get in!?

and yea, i kinda shot myself in the foot about the chaos stuff, though i still feel that the hit and fade rules will penalise the non t4 armies and units out there. and thats what i see as unfair. besides, the harleuins kisses are there to deal with the tougher stuff. as a side note, i too thought about the kisses having rending, instead of their instant death on a 6 to wound. i think rending makes them more fluffy,

in essence, i disagree with the hit and fade rules, but not for the need for them. in short, i would prefer to makes smaller changes here and there which end up with a similar result. adding a brand new rule seems to just complicate matters.

bear in mind, the 4+ cc save is not meant as a "big bulky armour", its no different to rune armour. and in effect it represents their speed of movement and the disorientation of the holo field, the enemy hitting thin air. i can see it working, and have tested both a 5+ and 4+, and think that the 4+ is really the way to go. plus it is much easier to implement.

[Rasmus]

well, its just that considering that their coherency is 4", it goes to reason that their hit range should also be 4". i mean, otherwise, when you are charging at the longer range, 5 - 6", then most of your guys are not going to get in!?

   I will look into it.

and yea, i kinda shot myself in the foot about the chaos stuff, though i still feel that the hit and fade rules will penalise the non t4 armies and units out there. and thats what i see as unfair. besides, the harleuins kisses are there to deal with the tougher stuff. as a side note, i too thought about the kisses having rending, instead of their instant death on a 6 to wound. i think rending makes them more fluffy,

   I think that since the majority of armies played are predominantly T4 that issue is made bigger than it really is. Riveblades could well be rending, but I am not sure on the kiss. It is made to kill multiwound-characters/monsters and should not be removed from that role, as nothing can really fill it.

in essence, i disagree with the hit and fade rules, but not for the need for them. in short, i would prefer to makes smaller changes here and there which end up with a similar result. adding a brand new rule seems to just complicate matters.

   well do the math on a combination of rules/tweaks that lands at the same efficiency then, and then suggest it.

bear in mind, the 4+ cc save is not meant as a "big bulky armour", its no different to rune armour. and in effect it represents their speed of movement and the disorientation of the holo field, the enemy hitting thin air. i can see it working, and have tested both a 5+ and 4+, and think that the 4+ is really the way to go. plus it is much easier to implement.

   But with the 4+ save they would severely outclass other cc-supertroops like wyches, who have a 6+/4++, whereas the harlequins have 4+(cover)/5++...

[Alex of Xen]

Sry, I was reading the 3rd Ed. Oops, looks like I'll need to save a copy of the revision.

Responces:

-Sry, I meant to delete the comment about the Master Mime, I looked a second time and saw I was wrong.  I forgot to go back over my post however. 

-Your also right about forcing the opponent to  re-roll succesful hits.  A counter point,  following the Eye of Terror Harlequins mission I DID suggest an all around 5+ Invulnerable Save, and it was disregarded.  I know it was this forum, not entirely sure if it was this thread.
 
-As for Preternatural Dexterity applying to Mimes it at least gives them SOME protection.  And with the other Harlequins makes them even more deadly in the assault.  As for them being able to take on Wyches, Wyche weapons still shear off an attack from the Harles so it isnt too unbalanced, and Harlies do cost alot more points.  You are however right about the counting as night fighting rules.  But I would like to point out that the goal as impressed upon me by the general flow of this thread is NOT toning DOWN the special rules so much as making them SIMPLER.  And by using a special rule that already exists (see the Tau Stealth Suits) that means an already existing wording is present, and thus is simpler to playtest.

-My point about the Allies is that they don't really fit.  It would seem to be too much effort for the Harlequins to take along A small limited number of Eldar when they could just use their own highly trained members.  I can see the point in allowing them to be taken as a counterpoint to Harles being available to normal Eldar, similar to how Daemonhunters can be taken as allies in normal imperial armies.  However, Harlequins are ELITE compared to regular Eldar units, the same is not true vice-versa.  But for those that did want the option of taking a massed unit of some sort I gave them the option of Harlies in training in the form of the Chorus because it fulfills a similar battlefield role, doesnt require multiple codicies, and seems more fluffy.  Of course if no one likes it, which seems to be the consensus, it can just as easily be tossed.  It also provided a fluffy reason for the Harlequin Wraithlord i.e. Spiritwalker, which I know from the past there had been some debate about.

-The rending on the kisses is Instead of the insta kill and always wounding.  It might make sense to make it +4 pts on a basic Trouper because in that sense its not as usefull but it could stay at 10 for a character because they get a decent enough chance of rolling those 6s.  Of course, considering that change it might be an option to keep it at +5 on the trouper but allowing Troupers the option of buying 3 or 4 kisses or power weapons per squad.  It could get a little expensive but it would really add a killer edge.  And in the case of wargear it might actually make sense to allow it to work with the power blades because then the only additional benefit the kiss gives is the auto wound on 6.  hmm...

-About the removal of hit and fade I actually had an idea to replace it that I forgot to type.  Again, sloppy posting on my part.  I do believe it was giving Harle's the Surprise Assault special rule.

-As for the Rive Blades, they would likely stay 15 points same as they are in the CJ39 armory.

Riveblades could well be rending, but I am not sure on the kiss. It is made to kill multiwound-characters/monsters and should not be removed from that role, as nothing can really fill it.

-actually Riveblades DONT have rending.  And they DO insta-kill on to wound rolls of 6.  Both Riveblades and Kisses had the SAME purpose.  The difference?  Rive blades ignored armor but rolled off of the units Strength.  Harle kissess dont but count as Poisoned.  Under my changes the Rive would only Auto-woundon a to-wound roll of a 6, rather than a to-hit roll, so that the Rive blade could have a chance of wounding and killing those big high toughness monsters, even if its a slight one.  And in the case of the Harle Kiss, with it JUST rending (although the possible ability to work w/ powerblades) its job would actually be better suited to killing whole groups of smaller units instead.

-Although you didn't actually comment about this, I would like to reiterate that having the Shadowseer as Fate is way awesome.

Thisi s not represented on the models though, not at all. Powerblades are small things that the model could conceivably have on them without it being too aparent, but the executioner is just a whole nother ballgame. I think we should try to stick wo WYSIWYG, at least as basic loadouts go. Executioners as options might be more interesting, though.

-Your right, its not represented on the model at all.  But neither are Powerblades.  And no they MUST be modeled on a Banshee Exarch and as such they MUST be modeled on a Death Jester.  And yet none of the previous DJs have any built on them.  An Executioner would however, provide a decent hitting punch to an army thats lacking it, and be characterful (think mini-maugetars) and easy to convert.  Again, even if just as an option that would be pretty sweet.  However the statline change is much more fitting.  First, a DJ is very competant in the assault thats true but giving him that extra WS isnt really needed, one would think that his large weapons would at least restrict his combat abilities even if he were to be as trained as a Troupe Leader.  And on the other hand, I felt strongly against ANY harlequin unit having I lower than 5.  I brought that up to GW, and was ignored, and I'll bring it up here as well.

I'm not trying to discredit anyone past work.  These were just some of my opinions/ideas.  They were radical, and I jokingly refered to that (at least that was the intent when I ended my last post with "you may now return to your regular broadcast") because they were just spit in the wind.  However, rereading all this I feel that some of them do have merit and probably deserve a closer look.  I appreciate your "shooting down" of my ideas becuase it forces them to be re-looked at.  This results in better thought, and as is the case here, better presented ideas.

[Rasmus]

Sry, I was reading the 3rd Ed.  Where is the 4th located it havent found it on this thread? 

   In the first post. It has a link to both versions, even though the 3rd is being maintained and updated.

-Your also right about the re-rolling of the saves.  A counter point,  following the Eye of Terror Harlequins mission I DID suggest an all around 5+ Invulnerable Save, and it was disregarded.  I know it was this forum, not entirely sure if it was this thread.

   It is something that surely needs more testing, but without a more powerful offence a lowered save will leave the Harlequins slaughtered in any cc against a 3+-save foe. That would be a bad thing for an army with virtually no firepower.

 

-As for Preternatural Dexterity applying to Mimes it at least gives them SOME protection.  And with the other Harlequins makes them even more deadly in the assault.  As for them being able to take on Wyches, Wyche weapons still shear off an attack from the Harles so it isnt too unbalanced, and they do cost alot more points.  You are however right about the counting as night fighting rules.  But I would like to point out that the goal as impressed upon me by the general flow of this thread is NOT toning DOWN the special rules so much as making the SIMPLER.  And by using a special rule that already exists (see the Tau Stealth Suits) that means an already existing wording is present, and thus is simpler to playtest.

   But the mimes are so cheap, and adding this rule would shift them away from the role they currently have, which would be a shame, as we would have to raise their cost quite a bit to accommodate this rule. Also, in an all-Mime army it would be a mess to work with, especially in larger armies.

-The rending on the kisses is Instead of the insta kill and always wounding.

   This radically changes the way the kiss works, and I think that would be a shame. I don't see the need to change it, and it appears that this change is for change's own sake in a way.

   Riveblades should be rending in the end, with some effect to instakill, I guess, but the kiss should not, as they then would go back to mimic eachother, with some slight twists.

[Alex of Xen]

Wow.  You must have replied right after I posted that because I modified my post a long time ago.  Before I saw your reply.  Thanks for only mentioning what you disagree with.  Anything you think might actually work? 

-And you cut the Rive blade out of your list entirely.  Both the Rive and the Harle had the same purpose.  So instead of eliminating one I changed them both so they can each have thier own unique abilities.  Thats what this list does need. All I did was give it a Universal Rule that anyone could understand.  Instead of explaining just what this widely available weapon does all you have to say is Rending.

-As for changing the Mimes, perhaps you are right.  Maybe they don't need anysave.  But adding a simple 6+ Iny save would at most result in an increase to 12 points as opposed to 10.  I already agreed that the changes to shooting werent needed, however it was an option to keep them fluffy and offer some greater survivabilty.  And in reguards to the 5+ save I only bring that up because YOU mentioned the possibility of it a few posts ago. 

That would be a bad thing for an army with virtually no firepower.

-Virtually no firepower?  Have you forgotten about the Death Jesters and the Wraithlord?  Thats some decent firepower.  Granted their not likely to outshoot alot but they provide some fairly effective covering fire.

[Rasmus]

-And you cut the Rive blade out of your list entirely.  Both the Rive and the Harle had the same purpose.  So instead of eliminating one I changed them both so they can each have thier own unique abilities.  Thats what this list does need. All I did was give it a Universal Rule that anyone could understand.  Instead of explaining just what this widely available weapon does all you have to say is Rending.

  I will look over the relationship between the stormglove and the kiss when I get the time, and see what can be done within the current rules for them.

That would be a bad thing for an army with virtually no firepower.

-Virtually no firepower?  Have you forgotten about the Death Jesters and the Wraithlord?  Thats some decent firepower.  Granted their not likely to outshoot alot but they provide some fairly effective covering fire.

   That's the same as a singel devastator squad ( but a lot more expensive) and possibly a dreadnought. Compare that to a myriad of scout snipers, tactical marines, tanks and other assorted guns on the Marine side, or batteries of tank-mounted cannons for IG and you can see what I mean; for firepower we have two elements, the ones you mentioned, and that is it and all. We cannot field an army that relies on shooting. It is impossible. With that in the back of our minds, cutting out the ability to successfully negate enemy numbers in cc would be folly, don't you think?

[Alex of Xen]

Uh, I didnt say we could rely on our shooting.  Just that we have SOME.  Your damn right that the assualt is where its at.  Speaking of which I was wondering what you might've thought on the option for Troupers to take more than just 2 specialty weapons or the possibilty of a Harlequin wide Surprise Assault rule.  An idea I kicked around for a long time was that instead of making Warlocks a seperate unit, that an army with a Shadowseer would allow Troupe Leaders (likely only 3 to 4 of them) to Warlock status and they would benefit from Embolden and Surprise Assault for their psychic powers.  hmm...

[Rasmus]

Uh, I didnt say we could rely on our shooting.  Just that we have SOME.  Your damn right that the assualt is where its at.  Speaking of which I was wondering what you might've thought on the option for Troupers to take more than just 2 specialty weapons

   That was suggested before (all-powerweapon troupes.... *shudder*) and it is because of this discussion, and the fact that it simply didn't work out that the Harlequins got hit and fade. I really wish Furious charge would work out, but it does not...

or the possibilty of a Harlequin wide Surprise Assault rule.

   It does not do enough. It does a bit, but the Harlequins still lose assault against equal points against CSM 9/10 times. That's bad.

  An idea I kicked around for a long time was that instead of making Warlocks a seperate unit, that an army with a Shadowseer would allow Troupe Leaders (likely only 3 to 4 of them) to Warlock status and they would benefit from Embolden and Surprise Assault for their psychic powers.  hmm...

   Like an upgrade? Yeah, that could work. I am not sure on embolden though. Will look into it.

[Alex of Xen]

Like an upgrade? Yeah, that could work. I am not sure on embolden though. Will look into it.

Exactly, it would be an upgrade to the already existing Troupe Leaders.

 I know it probably didnt sound this way from my earlier random as all heck posts but I did have a few goals in mind with my ramblings.  First it was to look at the original CJ lists and see what they had, and what roles the already existing units fulfilled.  Then to refine them so that they would be adapt at doing what they do best.  Next was introducing past elements of the Harlequins and even some of the regular Eldar that might've fit into the theme.  Finally, and most importanly, it was to streamline their rules as much as possible while still keeping the unique vibe the Harlies have.  Of course the all important game play balance would be the deciding factors on what would get changed and to what extent.

First, I prefered Mimes as a specialist scouting force, not Harlies in training.  And long ago I had the idea for the Chorus to fill the niche (as well as a) providing an outlet to re-introduce Eldar Musicians and b) provide a fluffy reason for the Harlie Wraithlord) of a fire base.  Because I felt that even the Harlequins needed one, even if it was restricted in numbers significantly.  Of course since that time the Revision had been started, Mimes became the trainees and the rules for Allies were introduced.  The allies idea I had occured much later after it had been talked about here and it was to allow for 0-2 Troops choices and 0-1 choice from one of everyother force organization slot of either Craftworlders or Dark Eldar (no mixing or matching) and the battle must be 1500 or higher, all compulsory slots must first be harlequin filled, and you could have no more allie squads than you had squads of regular Troupers.

And second was providing decent fire supposrt.  That was the role of the DJs but they werent really working to well for me.  Until I read the Eye of Terror mission which gave me some good ideas (one was the executioner, which was really just inspired by the fact that for the USF I was working on a Maugen Ra conversion).  Mainly the possibilty of giving them an actual armor save, but more importantly modifying the Shrieker.  My idea?  Make is 36" Heavy 2 Str. 6 AP 4.  But can also be fired as 18" Assault 2 with the same stats.  And at +10 pts it could be upgraded to fire Bio Explosive Ammo.  I still like that idea, and so my current thought is that the DJ should have the WS of 5 and Initiative 5 as well as the New Shrieker cannon and nothing else.  With a base cost of 35 or 40 points.  However, at an additional +10 points he may take either Powerblades or a weapon mounted Executioner.  And his current weapon swap costs are a bit steep (especially for that uber lame Hawks Talon).

As for the hitting power against CSM, I'll think on that one. 

For the ShadowSeer I played with him how he was under CJ 39 back in the day but I kept him as Fate and just gave his powers new names.  Misdirection became The Face of Doom and Viel of Tears became Clouded Destiny.  Of course other more Fate-ish powers would be cool.

Anyone else have any opinions on this stuff?

[DammageInc]

Wasn't sure if riveblades were left in the 4th ed list or not, will put it on my to-do for the AB files

[surfingspider]

My idea?  Make is 36" Heavy 2 Str. 6 AP 4.  But can also be fired as 18" Assault 2 with the same stats.  And at +10 pts it could be upgraded to fire Bio Explosive Ammo.

The DJ has options to change his weapon around so I don't think altering the shrieker into a heavy heavy bolter adds anything, rather it takes away from the name of the weapon. bio-exp ammo is fun during the few times it will actually work. its just annoying that the DJ is given that as default, costs too much, and has to pay more for a weapon that is practical against a wide range of foes.

DJ should have the WS of 5 and Initiative 5 as well as the New Shrieker cannon and nothing else.  With a base cost of 35 or 40 points.  However, at an additional +10 points he may take either Powerblades or a weapon mounted Executioner.

I4 is a tad low. i figure that if a guy has a flip belt that can let him go all over the place, the gun will have antigrav on it too and 'polearms' in cc don't have to slow one down if they're good enough, and the harlies are meant to be. Compulsory powerblades are a nuisance as well pushing the cost too high and have to go. If the DJ gets into hth the fat lady had sung for one player already. He should be out and about blasting stuff. 35p as is, is fair.

First, I prefered Mimes as a specialist scouting force, not Harlies in training.

Totally. i don't want to model nappies on a squad especially when they're actually doing stuff Elite soldiers in the worlds armies are doing now. Who'd call the SAS trainees?

Harlequins still lose assault against equal points against CSM 9/10 times. That's bad.

Any S3 force is going to have a hard time against higher T and a good AP. harlies are hard to play and should be because they're elite. winning is more than rolling over the opponent because of die roles. they have been left behind and need some tweaks but the list as is (CJ39+) works; requiring really good game and studied play (that i don't have) to get the best results.

now for some math: 100p of Harlies (4) vs CSM (5.5). CSM have 2 hand weapons. no one has charged.

HQ will cause 0.86% kills in a melee phase (4x3 [attacks]) x 0.66 (th%) x 0.33 (tw%) x 0.33 (sv%) or exactly 1 kill per 12 attacks
CSM will cause 2.6 kills (5x2.2 [attacks]) x 0.33 x 0.66 x 1
which aint good. against ordinary 15p SM the HQ are the same and the Marines are (6.6 men) going to cause 0.95 kills (A1). On the charge the HQ kills goes up to 1.9. If they all had power weapons it becomes 5.57 (charge) and 3.14 otherwise - so take banshees instead, the # of attacks is the same (more girlies) and they can save. all harlies need pwpn 

in 'game reality' they tend to do better although even Tau drones can take a long time to crash if the dies aren't there  tactic: charge where only a limited number of strikes can be returned and hope to take out the guys in 2". a harlequin shouldn't be able to, or mad enough, to jump into a base to base clump of anybodies.

ss

[Rasmus]

Any S3 force is going to have a hard time against higher T and a good AP. harlies are hard to play and should be because they're elite.

  But the way they are played currently (without hit and fade) they are not elite, and are unlikely to do "their job" very well. That is the problem we are battling with here.