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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #780 on: October 19, 2005, 02:41:16 AM »
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   2. It is "in addition to", not "instead of" the current tanglefoot-rules.

you are joking me right. come on! what else do you want grenades that play a little fanfare when you win close combat.
   Well, this is what they did in CJ 39, and the playtesting I have made on this has not shown it to unbalace over their points, when compared to the way they played in CJ 39. Now, I dont know how well-tested the CJ 39-list was when it was released, but it was a year or two old, so it had to have played a few games at least...

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Offline englishharlie

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #781 on: October 19, 2005, 07:11:11 AM »
Tarrin:

Just so you know I don't use the EO revision. I still use CJ39 and CJ44 (no wraithlords though as I want my quins to be as much of a challenge as is possible) with very few changes to what is written down.

The changes I've made are very few and I have only made changes to the rules and not added in any units. So for my quins tanglefoot allow me to force a re-roll on the sweep roll (win or lose) and also will stop a pile in move. Other than that I've also 'FAQed' any other stuff that was needed due to the 3rd -> 4th move and only actually added 2 rules, a save in CC and the venom dismount. Other than that I'm not using anything from the revision. I'm not doing great results wise but I'd say 9/10 losses can be put down to me and not the quins. The other 1 loss in 10 might be down to the list being weak or it might be down to dice it's hard to tell.

I am in no way trying to discredit the EO revision. It is a great list and would seem to me to be very harlequinesque. However for my own peace of mind and that of my opponents we have started off from scratch and are trying to add as little as is humanly possible to the list whilst making it viable. I'm not that interested in the history, it's great fun to read but I don't feel it necessary to have the historical units in the list. As I say this is my choice and I in no way want to discredit the EO revision. I'll b_tch all night, all day and then some about the wraithlord but that's been done before.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #782 on: October 19, 2005, 09:24:10 PM »
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   1. When you only wound a marine 32% of the time with a trouper worth almost twice as much as one, that 80% is fairly balanced, if you do the math of it.

But that trouper is statiscally going to wound a marine more than its points worth of a tau, or guardsmen. I think you are missing my point here. The people i play agaisnt think that the reroll is too much. i have played with over 20 different people on both sides of the atlantic and it was a common complaint. I really feel that it needs to be addressed. I have given several suggestions, but all have been turned down, even when other players have agreed. all i ask is that a playtest be in order.
I think that I've playtested at least 50 games with the current incarnation, and I haven't gotten a single complaint.  People may think its overpowered before the game, but after the game they realize every time that other weaknesses make it only fair.  I can guarantee that at least 40 of those 50 will complain if Harlequins get +2 attacks on the charge.  You have to understand that the conception of being 'overpowered' is skewed by stats.  People think re-rolls are worse than more attacks, no matter the actual numbers.  The best example is for Chaos: Daemonic Mutation v. Spiky Bitz.  Spiky Bitz is normally better, IMHO, but people take Daemonic Mutation because they see +1 attack and say ooooh.  Finally, if you've ever played against Daemonhunters, then you'll know that Harlies aren't all their cracked up to be in close combat.
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The quins are already sick in hand to hand, without it, under CJ rules i won 65%+ of the time, even in 4 ed.  i think that the army needs to grow into a slightly more balanced force from where it is at the moment. having more h2h stuff is not needed, with the High WS, high I, power weapons, number of attacks, fell blades, kisses, masks and grenades. ok they cost but another freebie which make quins awesome in hand is realy not needed. Hand to hand is there thing i realise this, every other ary has some balance ( even khorne, orks and nids which are the H2H armies)
What is your argument?  It is currently, as I understand it. 
1) Harlequins are good in H2H 
2) They need to be balanced
3) They have high attacks already
4)They are expensive
5)They should be focused on hand-to-hand

How does this justify your suggestion?
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Perhaps if you really think this is needed ( i don't) tone it down, make it:

1: that you only get it when you have not fleet of footed (needing time to prepare for the fight, pick targets)

Won't this just make everyone always uses Venoms?  How is this good?
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2: doesn't work when charging into cover ( need to ensure safe footing)
See above
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3: Is countered by tau photon grenades, creatures hitting first (banshees).
This is good.  I think it should be correct, but not for creatures hitting first.  Why?  It's not fluffy in the least that Harlequins will be freaked out by Banshee yells
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4: any other exceptions that make use not look beardy.

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   2. It is "in addition to", not "instead of" the current tanglefoot-rules.

you are joking me right. come on! what else do you want grenades that play a little fanfare when you win close combat.
Have you ever tested Tanglefoot Grenades?  They are for me a waste of points in any incarnation.
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   3. No, as this rule was in the web-release and later in CJ 39. Gav is setting the precedent here, not us. See the difference?
fair enough i was not aware of this precedent. but even though a little well placed imagination never hurts. how else do you write new materials and rules for a wide ranging popular game.
please don't take my comments as harsh, i mean them in a friendly way, so no flaming.

Offline Tarrin the Space Marine

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #783 on: October 24, 2005, 09:21:15 PM »
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I think that I've playtested at least 50 games with the current incarnation, and I haven't gotten a single complaint....

did you ask? after each game i asked players what they thought and this came up all the time. as you state
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People think re-rolls are worse than more attacks, no matter the actual numbers.  The best example is for Chaos: Daemonic Mutation v. Spiky Bitz.  Spiky Bitz is normally better,
reroll are better than extra attacks, my point exactly, so why not give them extra attack and downpower.


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People may think its overpowered before the game, but after the game they realize every time that other weaknesses make it only fair. 

What other weaknesses? as i pointed out above High WS, high I, power weapons, number of attacks, fell blades, kisses, masks and grenades, flip belts.
oh i assume you mean the low strength. with the new rules about not been able to strike back at all if no man is in hand to hand, the quins small unit need only kill one or two guys to enforce this if used right. even if they get to fight back they still need to be lucky to score a hit, and wound and not have the quin save.
that means with masks, and grenades you will win the combat a high percentage of the time and youre opponent will flee. this combined with the ability to enter hand to hand quickly and you are laughing all the way to the black library.

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,Finally, if you've ever played against Daemonhunters, then you'll know that Harlies aren't all their cracked up to be in close combat
.
i have played daemonhunters 5 times , won 4, lost 1.

again the statement apples, kill two and the rest cannot fight back, repeat, till dead, move on. daemonhunters are specialist army , and cost just as much, in balance. with only T4.


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What is your argument?  It is currently, as I understand it. 
1) Harlequins are good in H2H 
2) They need to be balanced
3) They have high attacks already
4)They are expensive
5)They should be focused on hand-to-hand

How does this justify your suggestion?

they are good yes, TOO GOOD, as it stands.

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1. Won't this just make everyone always uses Venoms?  How is this good? , 2. see above, 3. banshee yells.
1. if they want to burn there heavy slots, missing out on all the other juicy stuff then let them. watch them get shot.
2. I think this makes perfect sense, one of the primary rules of any hand to hand fight is ensure your footing.
3. If khorne berserkers, daemonhunters, and necrons suffer it so should we get a penalty. we are, bar one chap, living and have souls.
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Have you ever tested Tanglefoot Grenades?  They are for me a waste of points in any incarnation.
several times, and they have proven lethal with our high init. not having anyone follow up benefits us enomously as stated above, we kill 2, noone fights back, they cannot move in, so we choose where we go, and repeat. this is flangey.

Englishharlie,
i am of the same opinion as you. the rules are fine, again i like the historical, but it would be nice to pick the nice stuff out and leave the rest. i won plenty of games with the CJ39-44-50 rules in 4ed.
i find all this extra stuff added, a bit too much. i do not have a problem with new(old) units been added but a balance needs to be taken or teh quins become a one trick army, with too many special rules and options. keep it simple ( masques)

instead of all the pansying around with special rules , this and that.
why not say we always wounds on a maximum of a 5+, due to consumate skill, lose the hit and fade, and have done with it. And this is no way beardy as daemonhunters have WS5, s6 in h2h, furious charge etc. that way we fight with our kit that is listed in the CJ's and take our chances.
However, everything about Tarrin is unfair and should be sanctioned with extreme prejudice.

The Globals have issued a 2:1 ruling that yes, yes everything about Tarrin is indeed unfair. We have also been sullied merely by contemplating this.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #784 on: October 25, 2005, 02:30:34 AM »
did you ask? after each game i asked players what they thought and this came up all the time.
  I have made sure to ask, and ponder all the feedback I get after my games. I have had it brought up a few times, but not as often as other things which has been fixed, good and bad.

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People may think its overpowered before the game, but after the game they realize every time that other weaknesses make it only fair. 

What other weaknesses? as i pointed out above High WS, high I, power weapons, number of attacks, fell blades, kisses, masks and grenades, flip belts.
   Well, the lack of serious firepower, decent transport, anything that can't be instakilled (apart from the spiritwalker) and the high cost...

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,Finally, if you've ever played against Daemonhunters, then you'll know that Harlies aren't all their cracked up to be in close combat
.
i have played daemonhunters 5 times , won 4, lost 1.
  Good for you. I have played a few games as well, and if I get stuck in protracted wars I get murdered. If I play smart I can come out on top, but it is really tricky, depending on how the other guy plays them.

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they are good yes, TOO GOOD, as it stands.
  I disagree. THey are about as good as they are supposed to, but some additional balancing to keep them that way is needed. However the math is getting pretty thick at this point, so it is taking its time.

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1. Won't this just make everyone always uses Venoms?  How is this good? , 2. see above, 3. banshee yells.
1. if they want to burn there heavy slots, missing out on all the other juicy stuff then let them. watch them get shot.
  Venoms don't use heavy-slots. Did you miss that?


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Offline Tarrin the Space Marine

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #785 on: October 25, 2005, 12:18:31 PM »
have you had chance to playtest the other ideas, extra attack? would be nice to give it a go and see. the general view of all my opponents was that it seemed excessive on top of all the other stuff availiable, especially combined with the masques.

remember i am only reporting my playtesting and giving ideas.

i disagree with lack of serious firepower. i have never had a real problem with this, as fusion pistols supported by Dj's with BL's or fire pikes really get it done.

ok the softness is a factor but they can cover ground so fast i think that is balanced.

i found with daemonhunters that as they tend to be small  forces ( grey knights) i can out maneurve them as i am faster than a termie on foot, and close range pistols ( fusion take them down).

didnt see teh dedicated transport rule for venoms, again makes them really good,

ok, maybe they should be really good in hand to hand, but with all the other options that are avialibale to them, dedicated fast open topped, weel equipped transports, looted vehicles, bulk gaurdian squads to fatten out the army , to claim table quarters, this fragile nature is taken away. They are too good. I think if you want to keep the excellent nature of the list in hand to hand, you need to lose the ability to calim table quarters with cheap 5 man squads, such as mimes and guardians. if you must have these support squads, then make them the eldar/dark eldar elites and keep them in elites. gauardians have no place on teh field with quins.


you all seem to want them as an all or nothing army, so lose the things that make them a standing force.
i have always envisaged 15-20 guys tearing across the field in a venom and on foot and riiping everything aprat with shooting and hand to hand, backed only with 3-4 guys with long range heavies, not a bulk force at the back, holding the line.

i hope you see where i am coming from. at the moment the list has all strengths, few weaknesses in my , and my opponents opinion.

in no way am i ciomplaining at teh effort put it, in fact far from it, just i feel they are not right yet and i am only trying to argue my views.
However, everything about Tarrin is unfair and should be sanctioned with extreme prejudice.

The Globals have issued a 2:1 ruling that yes, yes everything about Tarrin is indeed unfair. We have also been sullied merely by contemplating this.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #786 on: October 25, 2005, 02:22:51 PM »
I see your points, and will try out your idea again, but I am not sure if it will go over well. I will get back to you on it.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #787 on: October 25, 2005, 07:59:03 PM »
you all seem to want them as an all or nothing army, so lose the things that make them a standing force.
i have always envisaged 15-20 guys tearing across the field in a venom and on foot and riiping everything aprat with shooting and hand to hand, backed only with 3-4 guys with long range heavies, not a bulk force at the back, holding the line.

Try restating this.  They are currently mutually exclusive.

We certainly respect your opinions, and it's good to know the revision isn't done!

Offline DammageInc

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #788 on: October 30, 2005, 11:23:42 AM »
Just as an aside all, been working on AB2 version of the 4th ed EO rule set, once i have it ironed out and all the validation rules working ok i will post it :)

And yes, it will have everything, got flight belts, shadowseer (with retinue and familiars), looted vehicals, warlocks, EVERYTHING :)

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #789 on: October 30, 2005, 11:50:15 AM »
We are all looking forward to it.

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #790 on: October 31, 2005, 03:14:08 PM »
hmm...

ive had a quick look over the 4th ed download. very quick. i must say there are some nice touches, but also some things that, in my opinion, take it very far from the original cj39/44 list. is this a good thing or a bad thing!? i dunno, i guess its distance from the "official" listing means its less likely to get opponents approval, especially as it really does have seme nasty additions and changes to it.

things i like at first glance:
+the warlocks, good to see these again!
+venoms as troupe transports, as it should be!
+Master Mime in there, a critical element to the masque
+the "mime masque" is a cool element
+the ideas to balance out the lack of CC saves are interesting
+the "spiritwalker" needing a shadowseer is an excelent touch!
+other seer powers are a good idea, though i havent read them all yet.

things i dont like at first glance:
-i think many will see the ideas used to balance the lack of CC save extreme, and perhaps overpowering.
-the mime "disruption", while well meant, takes them a bit too far from their origins for my liking
-the master mime is underpriced. as he appeared in the troll download he should cost somewhere in the region of 100, 110 points. remember, he is essentially like a callidus assassin, but with perks... and no weapons!
-i dont feel that death jesters need to be changed from elites to heavy.

ill get back to you once ive had a proper read of the list,trying to read it off the screen is appaling!


Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #791 on: October 31, 2005, 03:28:05 PM »
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-i think many will see the ideas used to balance the lack of CC save extreme, and perhaps overpowering.
   We are battling with that, but there is simply very few ways of making this a powerful cc-army without making it powerful in cc. If you have any suggestions please do tell us.

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-the mime "disruption", while well meant, takes them a bit too far from their origins for my liking
  The original fluff called for the mimes to do just these disruptions, and you didn't get them on the fields then. This is a return towards that function, and it is very limited.

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-the master mime is underpriced. as he appeared in the troll download he should cost somewhere in the region of 100, 110 points.
   Hmm... I have not seen him as underpriced. Certainly not overpriced, but neverunderpriced. With gear he tends to run off in points, and becomes a rather hefty point-burden to carry.

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-i dont feel that death jesters need to be changed from elites to heavy.
   It is just a way to counter 9 DJs AND a Wraithlord, and make people pick and choose their firepower a bit more carefully, and emphasise that they are a supporting unit, not something the army is supposed to be made out of.

Thank you for your feedback. Keep it coming!

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Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #792 on: October 31, 2005, 03:38:34 PM »
countering death jesters with the wraithlord does seem to have its merits.
though for some reason my head seems to say that eldar (or dark eldar) allies should probably count as heavy support?? i dunno.

in regards to teh master mime, its the ability to turn up anywhere on the battlefield and act as normal that makes him underpriced. yea, the callidus assassin costs 120, this comes with weapons included, but none of the harlequin special rules! when you jiggle the stats around they come out that the master mime has more "stat points" and so should cost more as a base.

yea he eats a lot of points once he is laden with equipment, but that is even more reason why he seems underpriced, i mean, once he has all the special harlequin wargear and is able to turn up anywhere, plus the fact youve given him scout AND infiltrate then you got A LOT of stuff for not much points.

in regards to the armour save, it seems a tricky one... i can understand the dilemma.

as a note on this point, have you thought of using a version of the "night fight" a la stealth suits or "grey knight "shrouding" rules. IMO the night fight vision rules arent too effective though at long range they can work.

Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #793 on: October 31, 2005, 07:31:34 PM »
As far as The Shrouding in reference to Harlequins this was discussed earlier (page 14-15??) but the gist of the argument was that playing against Daemonhunters is actually really annoying and too cumbersome to work with Harlequins.

Relating the Master Mime to the Callidus is right--it seems like you are correct.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #794 on: November 1, 2005, 01:33:19 AM »
As for Eldar Allies as heavies... If we had just allied in tnaks and such it would have made sense, but Storm Guardians are by no means Heavy Support, and as we don't want a split-category-choice it pretty much has to end up in Elites to make sense at all.

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Offline englishharlie

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #795 on: November 1, 2005, 05:36:18 AM »
Some comments on what's been said recently.

Tanglefoot grenades - against armies which heavily ournumber us they are far from a waste of points. Tarrin's already said this but I have to agree. They are invaluable when faced with huge units. They don't save you completely but they give you one round of grace to get stuck in before they pile in and make their numbers count. Without these Orks are a very very tough fight.

Master Mime - Hell underpriced IMO. The cost of tools I admit is high but in every other list out there units pay dearly for even having the options.

DJs can stay elite for me, no wraithlords making my life easy anyway.

Eldar / Dark Eldar troops, why not make them heavy support they wear armour and carry in general longer range guns and so basically that makes them quin heavy support. This would then add more competition for the wraithlord which IMO is a good thing.

I also agree that extra attacks would be better than 'hit and fade'. Maybe move 'hit and fade' to a great harlie masque or something similar?

A Question, not having read through this entire thread I was wondering; have there been any decent ideas that would allow the quins to continue without having a save in CC? I've come up with a few ideas but so far nothing worth mentioning, for me this would be the perfect thing to find, a rule which allows us to still own CC but that would also allow us to keep the no save thing.

English

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #796 on: November 1, 2005, 05:52:17 AM »
Eldar / Dark Eldar troops, why not make them heavy support they wear armour and carry in general longer range guns and so basically that makes them quin heavy support. This would then add more competition for the wraithlord which IMO is a good thing.
   Foootslogging Storm guardians with flamers as heavy support? That does not work for me.

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A Question, not having read through this entire thread I was wondering; have there been any decent ideas that would allow the quins to continue without having a save in CC? I've come up with a few ideas but so far nothing worth mentioning, for me this would be the perfect thing to find, a rule which allows us to still own CC but that would also allow us to keep the no save thing.
   None that have worked without thingks that would make the current hid and fade, or even Furious charge and hit and fade combined look pretty lame and balanced.

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Offline englishharlie

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #797 on: November 1, 2005, 06:13:22 AM »
Well they have armour, which makes them heavier... But yeah just a thought.

Thought as much, my latest binned idea was to make all misses go back on the opponents. So if 10 Orks attack, they score 10 hits and hit themsleves 20 times. Bit much and yes it would make hit and fade (even the wounding version) look underpowered.

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #798 on: November 1, 2005, 06:16:55 AM »
Yeah, and it is also without precedent, which makes it even worse. And yes, it would be a far too powerful ability, especially when considering that a powerfist will only hit a character on a 6, returning 83% of the high-S-no-save-hits to the marine on the other end. That would upset a LOT of people. :)

Edit:
Master Mime - considering the stats (tweak to Troupe Leader but lower than GH) and its abilities, raising the points to 80 seems fair, but higher would make it impractical to use, and it would be better to lower the statline on the thing instead.
« Last Edit: November 1, 2005, 06:38:58 AM by Rasmus »

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Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #799 on: November 1, 2005, 07:27:51 AM »
i agree it might make more sense to lower the stat line of the master mime, i mean, he is supposed to be subordinate to the great harlequin, rather than his equal. though close to him in terms of capability, perhaps it will make more sense giving him the stat line equal to a shadowseer?

sorry about not realising the shrouding has already been put forward, i have only recently become very interested in this thread and have not had the time to trawl through all 40pages!!?

anyway, onwards, i can see why you might put the eldar allies as elites, if nothing else, its a reversal from the harlequins as elites in eldar armies. however, i do just feel that their numbers and weapons would warrant them being in heavy support (as mentioned above). yes, flamer guardians doesnt seem like heavy support, but a squad of 20 guardians with shuriken catapults sure does! and i know thats what id take! i think this would be necessary if you decide to swap the DJ back to elites, which is a change i am definately in favour of.

in terms of the armour and CC.
why not have the Holo Suit work as is described in the CJ39 list, but that the save is treated as an invulnerable save in combat. that way the advantages (and disadvantages) of the cover style save are kept but in combat there is a much better chance of survival given the 4+invulnerable. its simple and easy, just extending the save so it applies in combat. that might well solve the issue to the extent that the added rules for extra attacks and re-rolling misses are unnecessary, bringing it back in line with the original CJ39 rules!?

 


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