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Author Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!  (Read 138530 times)

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Offline JaedenKaal

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #660 on: June 10, 2005, 02:14:38 AM »
I suppose.  Yeah, precedents are bad.
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Offline Roy

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #661 on: June 12, 2005, 11:53:54 AM »
I realize this might not be a very popular idea, but neuro disruptors probably shouldn't work against necrons. They are after all not biological creatures.

Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #662 on: June 12, 2005, 05:12:48 PM »
I completely agree with Rasmus here.  However, don't Banshee Masks 'cancel out' enemy always strikes first in the same way suggested?

Roy I don't think we want to open up a whole new are with the Neuro Disruptor.  If we don't allow them to work against biological creatures, what about against vehicles without creatures inside them--like a Defiler or Monolith?  Perhaps it is better to just turn our heads instead of producing even more problems.

Sometimes I play a game with Harlequins and wonder--are Hit & Fade and the new Flip Belt rules really necessary?  Although it was a small game using the CJ39 rules, I nonetheless rolled over the enemy Dark Angels--piloted by a player more experienced than I.  Then again, it might have been a different situation against Daemonhunters, for example.

Offline JaedenKaal

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #663 on: June 12, 2005, 10:47:48 PM »
Yeah, Roy, iunno, there's a whole section in the necron codex about how necrons are affected by everything even if it seems like it wouldn't work on a necron.  Note, of course, that necrons are only wounded on 6's by neural shredders.
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Offline Roy

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #664 on: June 13, 2005, 02:12:36 AM »
I realized it wouldn't be popular, and I suppose nothing that should be changed as such, at least not if the Callidus assassin stay the same.

Just seems to me it shouldn't work.

Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #665 on: June 14, 2005, 10:19:26 AM »
We have now passed the EO Exodites Project in posts!

I realized it wouldn't be popular, and I suppose nothing that should be changed as such, at least not if the Callidus assassin stay the same.

Just seems to me it shouldn't work.
I agree but it seems once again we are stuck by keeping the rules simple.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #666 on: June 14, 2005, 10:50:02 AM »
I would rather see the list simple and playable rather than "accurate representation" and unplayable.

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Offline Destoroyah

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #667 on: June 14, 2005, 11:31:20 AM »
Well, my friend and I have been playtesting with your rules and we really like 'em. We think they're actually pretty balanced.

Offline HarleyQuinn

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #668 on: June 16, 2005, 01:51:23 AM »
Since you said we could suggest, here are a few I have for the 4th Ed. EO codex.   ;D

1) For the Flip Belt, I really don't like the idea of the 5+ Invulnerable save.  It seems overpowered to me, especially with opponents having to divide their WS in half due to the holo-suit.  Consider: the vast majority of opponents need a 5+ to hit.  That's tough enough as it is.  If you really want to keep an invulnerable save, at least lower the save to a 6+ Invulnerable.

1A) One proposal I'm making for my league's next season is the following: When consolidating after winning an assault, Harlequins roll 2D6 and move a number of inches equal to the highest result.   It reflects their acrobatics and ability to deal a killing blow on the move.

2) Ditch the Hit and Fade if you're keeping the Invulnerable save.  Too many gimmicks stacked together.

3) Should you decide to omit the Invulnerable save mentioned in (1), consider this addition for D-field: A Troupe Leader equipped with a domino field may make an opponent in close combat need sixes to hit, but any Wounds inflicted must first be applied to the Troupe Leader before spilling over to other models in the Troupe. It never made sense to me that a Troupe Leader could buy it but not really benefit from it unless he was the last survivor.  At least give the player an option to risk it.  Besides, I see a Leader as someone who's willing to lead the charge and set an example for the rest of the squad.

4) For Tanglefoot grenades, you should stipulate that it's on the first full round only.  I don't see Harlies throwing additional grenades during a close combat.  They already get all the perks from the Flip Belt and Holo-suit.

5) I don't like the Familiar Group, mostly because they seem inconsistent and grossly underpointed for what they do.  One Benethai seems appropriately pointed at 25 (18pts for the Fusion pistol and 7pts for the +1A).  But the additional Benethai fall apart from there.  How do you justify giving an additional Fusion pistol and +1WS for only 10pts?  Here's a chart detailing the benefits you've given for each level:

#     COST     SHOOT                         BONUSES                       FP COST          BONUS COST          UNDERCHARGE
1       25         Pistol                               +1A                                 18                      7                           0
2       35         Assault 2                      +1A, +1WS                           36                     14                         15
3       45         Assault 3               +1A, +1WS, Far Reach                  54                     21                         30
4       65         Assault 4      +1A, +1WS, Far Reach, 2nd Psychic        72                     28                         35

If you're going to give these benefits, at least make it reasonable for other players to accept when they read it.  Otherwise it comes off extremely cheesy.  Even the assumption that each bonus is 7pts seems low, particularly for the psychic benefits.

Just my thoughts.

-HQ
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 02:32:40 AM by HarleyQuinn »

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #669 on: June 16, 2005, 03:35:15 AM »
Since you said we could suggest, here are a few I have for the 4th Ed. EO codex.   ;D

1) For the Flip Belt, I really don't like the idea of the 5+ Invulnerable save.  It seems overpowered to me, especially with opponents having to divide their WS in half due to the holo-suit.  Consider: the vast majority of opponents need a 5+ to hit.  That's tough enough as it is.  If you really want to keep an invulnerable save, at least lower the save to a 6+ Invulnerable.
   Against any cc-army the harlequins fall like nothing else without the save. Wyches (priced at less than 50% of a harlequin trouper, makes short owrk of them, and this does not work out too well as the Harlequins are supposed to be good at what they do. That is why the save it appropriate. The 4+ was dropped to 5+ and in my testing this has worked out a lot better.

Quote
1A) One proposal I'm making for my league's next season is the following: When consolidating after winning an assault, Harlequins roll 2D6 and move a number of inches equal to the highest result.   It reflects their acrobatics and ability to deal a killing blow on the move.
   That makes sense.

Quote
2) Ditch the Hit and Fade if you're keeping the Invulnerable save.  Too many gimmicks stacked together.
   Without it the Harlequins' hurt marines far too little, compared, again, to their cost. A far cheaper scorpion has a better record despite lower WS. So something is needed. If you have a suggestion on how to fix this problem.

Quote
3) Should you decide to omit the Invulnerable save mentioned in (1), consider this addition for D-field: A Troupe Leader equipped with a domino field may make an opponent in close combat need sixes to hit, but any Wounds inflicted must first be applied to the Troupe Leader before spilling over to other models in the Troupe. It never made sense to me that a Troupe Leader could buy it but not really benefit from it unless he was the last survivor.  At least give the player an option to risk it.  Besides, I see a Leader as someone who's willing to lead the charge and set an example for the rest of the squad.
  D-fields should be made "Ind character-only" instead. it would just save all this bother.

Quote
4) For Tanglefoot grenades, you should stipulate that it's on the first full round only.  I don't see Harlies throwing additional grenades during a close combat.  They already get all the perks from the Flip Belt and Holo-suit.
   But the grenades are tossed when the enemy flees, so if the enemy run in turn 2 the Harlequins can't toss it after them as they run? That seems odd. Should Haywires, likewise, and Hallucinogen, and krak for other races, be limited to first turn?

Quote
5) I don't like the Familiar Group, mostly because they seem inconsistent and grossly underpointed for what they do.  One Benethai seems appropriately pointed at 25 (18pts for the Fusion pistol and 7pts for the +1A).  But the additional Benethai fall apart from there.  How do you justify giving an additional Fusion pistol and +1WS for only 10pts?  Here's a chart detailing the benefits you've given for each level:
   The thing with the familiargroup is that yes, it can be quite the devastating thing, but it adds a LOT of points to an allready pricey character. With 4 Benathai and two powers along with the rest of the gear it costs a LOT of points, and with a single missile taking him out, or heaven forbid someone smacks you with an ordnance, it is all gone in an instance. It is not a game-winner, and the costeven without your propsed increase, makes the SS a very pricey target. How do you suppose to counteract this?

Thank you for you comments so far.

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Offline HarleyQuinn

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #670 on: June 17, 2005, 03:24:36 AM »
Against any cc-army the harlequins fall like nothing else without the save. Wyches (priced at less than 50% of a harlequin trouper, makes short owrk of them, and this does not work out too well as the Harlequins are supposed to be good at what they do. That is why the save it appropriate. The 4+ was dropped to 5+ and in my testing this has worked out a lot better.

I suppose so, but it still seems overbalanced to me.  I guess the main complaint I have is that every army has an achilles' heel.  As the Harlie's "heel" is no armour save, giving them an Invulnerable save makes it more forgiving learning how to play the army well.  *shrugs* Maybe it's just me.

Regarding Hit and Fade:
Quote
Without it the Harlequins' hurt marines far too little, compared, again, to their cost. A far cheaper scorpion has a better record despite lower WS. So something is needed. If you have a suggestion on how to fix this problem.
Maybe, but it gives Harlies a HUGE advantage over everyone else.  Consider Tyranids with a 5+ armour save.  Giving Harlies the ability to reroll missed to hit rolls on the charge absolutely negates them, making what should be an equivalent army (based on their speed) appear amateur.

What about developing one of the power weapons with a fixed 4+ to wound roll?  That would balance it out a bit, give players the option of arming as many models as they can with it, and leaving this off the list against weakly armored forces.  The benefit could be counterbalanced by charging a little more for the weapon.  Maybe not a popular suggestion, but you asked for an alternative.  :D

Quote
D-fields should be made "Ind character-only" instead. it would just save all this bother.
Agreed.  I still like the strategic option of sacrificing a leader to gain an early advantage.

Quote
But the grenades are tossed when the enemy flees, so if the enemy run in turn 2 the Harlequins can't toss it after them as they run? That seems odd. Should Haywires, likewise, and Hallucinogen, and krak for other races, be limited to first turn?
Good point, but relegate this option to Tanglefoots and Haywires only.  If I were in a combat, I'd throw a Tanglefoot over a Hallucinogen any day.  Making a squad see more Harlies than are really there will only make them run faster.  :P  Krak and Plasmas are pretty worthless after the first round.

Quote
The thing with the familiargroup is that yes, it can be quite the devastating thing, but it adds a LOT of points to an allready pricey character. With 4 Benathai and two powers along with the rest of the gear it costs a LOT of points, and with a single missile taking him out, or heaven forbid someone smacks you with an ordnance, it is all gone in an instance. It is not a game-winner, and the costeven without your propsed increase, makes the SS a very pricey target. How do you suppose to counteract this?

Not clear on what your question is, but I'm guessing that you'd like me to elaborate my problem (?).  It's not so much the cost and ease of destruction, but imagine putting the SS on a jetbike.  For one, he gets a 3+ armour save, which will keep him around that much longer.  Now imagine him attached to a jetbike squad.  Safe among the numbers, he can get w/in 6" of a vehicle and fire up to 5 Fusion weapons at it (4 Benethai + FP on SS)?  FAR too powerful, and easily obscured enough to do significant damage before he gets taken out.

At least consider diminishing the weapon from a Fusion Pistol to a Shuriken Pistol (Plasma Pistol at the best), and decrease the limit from 4 to 3 (b/c of the 12" range on the pistol).  Stylistically, I like the idea of a gang of acrobats lobbing haywires at vehicles over "Hardboiled" action stars shooting as they run alongside their tank target.   ;D

-HQ

Offline Fenix7729

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #671 on: June 23, 2005, 12:05:22 PM »
well if you do put your SS on a jetbike with 4 benathai then that means your only going to 12" to shoot or you can take the extra boost and go 24" but that also means your a sitting a duck for a turn also for you cant shoot or assault the turn you do that.  then if your opponent has any common sense he'll move his 1 tank out of range, and even if you do destroy the tank, that means your out in the open because you had to get so close to the tank to destroy it and all guns are pointed at you.  you cant shoot at one thing and assault another.  remember, you must assault what you shoot at.
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Offline HarleyQuinn

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #672 on: June 23, 2005, 03:29:36 PM »
well if you do put your SS on a jetbike with 4 benathai then that means your only going to 12" to shoot or you can take the extra boost and go 24" but that also means your a sitting a duck for a turn also for you cant shoot or assault the turn you do that.  then if your opponent has any common sense he'll move his 1 tank out of range, and even if you do destroy the tank, that means your out in the open because you had to get so close to the tank to destroy it and all guns are pointed at you.  you cant shoot at one thing and assault another.  remember, you must assault what you shoot at.

It wasn't the initial move I was concerned about w/ the SS on a jetbike, but that the SS on a jetbike can attach to a Jetbike Squadron.  Getting lost in numbers increases the odds that the SS survives to do serious damage, and putting him on a jetbike also gives a 3+ save he wouldn't otherwise have.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #673 on: July 5, 2005, 04:22:41 AM »
Unfortunately I'm in Germany in an internet cafe, so some typing maz be screwed up bz the different letter positions that I don't wish to waste money looking at.  It appears that z=y in this case.

One of the main reasons I see for the 5+ invulnerable is that even if the enemz can only hit on a 5+, cheap opponents like Kroot can simply swamp the Harlequins with attacks, and the Harlequins don't have enough attacks in the first place to make a big enough dent in the Kroot.  Therefore the invul is introduced as a sort of catch all.

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Offline Baharroth.

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #674 on: July 5, 2005, 11:05:49 AM »
First with the fimilar guys.....if you have 4 of them.....65, plus SS....50...then the powers.....20-40 is, Then the wargear.....most liky around......40ish more points......your looking at like roughly 200 for a single model.....OH plus the points for the H. Warlock....if you get one....

Offline Fenix7729

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #675 on: July 5, 2005, 01:24:06 PM »
plus if you really want to spend your turns blowing up a tank thats worth (probably) around up to 250 points.  i wouldnt want to spend my 200 point shadowseer and whole jetbike squad to go blow up a land raider or a leman russ, thats what my death jesters are for.  if you stand there for a turn since you blew up a tank, then your a sitting duck and every gun is going to be pointed at your SS and jetbike squad.  not a good thing, enspecially if your facing tau or IG.  thats about 500+ points for everything down the toilet because you wanted to blow up a tank.  i rather spend my SS+jetbikes on something more costly for the opposing team.
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Offline Baharroth.

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #676 on: July 5, 2005, 07:20:05 PM »
lol i was facing tau and he had 3 hammerheads......an d he cared so much for his pathfinders with railrifles..... so....i had my mimes take care of the pathfinders while the SS and his dancing freinds went three inches away from his tank and blew it up!!!......the tank was infront of some fire warroirs so i had my unit of troupes run and got them stuck in combat.....so....it was like.....three squads gone and when the tank blew up it blocked LoS from every thing else but the fire warroirs (locked in CC for doom) and the pathfinders....(also locked in CC for doom).....i totaled 2 hammerheads......in all i just dont feel like posting the rest of what happened

Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #677 on: July 6, 2005, 09:24:49 AM »
Against any cc-army the harlequins fall like nothing else without the save. Wyches (priced at less than 50% of a harlequin trouper, makes short owrk of them, and this does not work out too well as the Harlequins are supposed to be good at what they do. That is why the save it appropriate. The 4+ was dropped to 5+ and in my testing this has worked out a lot better.

I suppose so, but it still seems overbalanced to me.  I guess the main complaint I have is that every army has an achilles' heel.  As the Harlie's "heel" is no armour save, giving them an Invulnerable save makes it more forgiving learning how to play the army well.  *shrugs* Maybe it's just me.

Regarding Hit and Fade:
Quote
Without it the Harlequins' hurt marines far too little, compared, again, to their cost. A far cheaper scorpion has a better record despite lower WS. So something is needed. If you have a suggestion on how to fix this problem.
Maybe, but it gives Harlies a HUGE advantage over everyone else.  Consider Tyranids with a 5+ armour save.  Giving Harlies the ability to reroll missed to hit rolls on the charge absolutely negates them, making what should be an equivalent army (based on their speed) appear amateur.

What about developing one of the power weapons with a fixed 4+ to wound roll?  That would balance it out a bit, give players the option of arming as many models as they can with it, and leaving this off the list against weakly armored forces.  The benefit could be counterbalanced by charging a little more for the weapon.  Maybe not a popular suggestion, but you asked for an alternative.  :D

Quote
D-fields should be made "Ind character-only" instead. it would just save all this bother.
Agreed.  I still like the strategic option of sacrificing a leader to gain an early advantage.

Quote
But the grenades are tossed when the enemy flees, so if the enemy run in turn 2 the Harlequins can't toss it after them as they run? That seems odd. Should Haywires, likewise, and Hallucinogen, and krak for other races, be limited to first turn?
Good point, but relegate this option to Tanglefoots and Haywires only.  If I were in a combat, I'd throw a Tanglefoot over a Hallucinogen any day.  Making a squad see more Harlies than are really there will only make them run faster.  :P  Krak and Plasmas are pretty worthless after the first round.

Quote
The thing with the familiargroup is that yes, it can be quite the devastating thing, but it adds a LOT of points to an allready pricey character. With 4 Benathai and two powers along with the rest of the gear it costs a LOT of points, and with a single missile taking him out, or heaven forbid someone smacks you with an ordnance, it is all gone in an instance. It is not a game-winner, and the costeven without your propsed increase, makes the SS a very pricey target. How do you suppose to counteract this?

Not clear on what your question is, but I'm guessing that you'd like me to elaborate my problem (?).  It's not so much the cost and ease of destruction, but imagine putting the SS on a jetbike.  For one, he gets a 3+ armour save, which will keep him around that much longer.  Now imagine him attached to a jetbike squad.  Safe among the numbers, he can get w/in 6" of a vehicle and fire up to 5 Fusion weapons at it (4 Benethai + FP on SS)?  FAR too powerful, and easily obscured enough to do significant damage before he gets taken out.

At least consider diminishing the weapon from a Fusion Pistol to a Shuriken Pistol (Plasma Pistol at the best), and decrease the limit from 4 to 3 (b/c of the 12" range on the pistol).  Stylistically, I like the idea of a gang of acrobats lobbing haywires at vehicles over "Hardboiled" action stars shooting as they run alongside their tank target.   ;D

-HQ

A huge advantage on paper does not necessarily transform into a huge advantage in the game!  Harlequins are just as fragile to shooting as ever, and now stand a more reasonable chance against Grey Knights.

As far as special power weapons go, the addition of the Fell-Blades somewhat addresses this issue.  However providing Agonisers to an already strong army in CC seems like complete folly.

The Benathai are so expensive--with no increased survival length for the character.  Therefore they seem balanced to me.

Offline Baharroth.

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #678 on: July 6, 2005, 01:21:35 PM »
question.....what does the fell blade do?..

Offline Manny-Kun

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #679 on: July 6, 2005, 01:23:49 PM »
counts as a heavy close combat weapon
Am i posting my threads in the right place? because i get often confused... :-/

 


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