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Author Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!  (Read 134591 times)

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Offline Grimm

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #60 on: July 3, 2003, 11:34:31 AM »
InfinityCircuit, I guess I don't see the complexity in Von Lazuli's idea. The way he has proposed the point calculations is identical to the way veteran abilities are added for Chaos Space Marines in the new codex. If GW has already used the concept then I don't think it can be thrown out as too complex.

For Rasmus, I would suggest keeping the Dark Veil as a fixed cost wargear for the GH just like the warp gate in the new EoT list and then have all the others as variable cost similar to veteran abilities.

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #61 on: July 3, 2003, 11:36:16 AM »
Please give your ideas on what point-costs you would think would be reasonable.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #62 on: July 3, 2003, 03:35:53 PM »
Actually you are quite wrong.  It is much simpler in the Chaos Codex.

I already told you my ideas, Grimm what are your thoughts regarding the others?

Offline Von Lazuli

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #63 on: July 3, 2003, 08:03:22 PM »
The reason it costs more for certain units is because they benifit more from it. i.e with the masque of the last laugh, which is better, a S3 Harlequin attack, or a S10 Wraithlord attack? Also with the Masqye of the shifting Shadows, which benifits more from having equal numbers, 5 Harlequins, or a single model?

I do think it is a bit complex, so a revision is in order.

Masque of the Dark Veil stays the same as my original idea.
Masque of the Last Laugh is still +2pts/model except Wraithlords cannot take this ability due to them being big, slow and fro that matter, already dead.
Masque of the Laughing God stays as it was.
Masque of the Red Death stays as it is.
I am not sure about the Masque of the Shifting Shadows but here is my thought: +10 pts per squad or Independent Character (note an exception to this is a squad of 3 Death Jesters is only +10pts not +30 because they are still treated as a squad)

I dont know is that clears things up but i hope it does.
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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #64 on: July 3, 2003, 08:07:30 PM »
That sounds really good, why don't you update the original or post the new version with the upgrades?

Offline Von Lazuli

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #65 on: July 3, 2003, 08:48:34 PM »
Ok can do.

*Edit*
The original is now updated, as the post is very long I dont want to re-post it.
« Last Edit: July 3, 2003, 08:54:58 PM by Von Lazuli »
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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #66 on: July 3, 2003, 09:07:40 PM »
That looks great!  You shouldn't be afraid to repost it, size is no matter, you can do cut/paste.

Offline Von Lazuli

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #67 on: July 3, 2003, 09:10:58 PM »
OK here you are Infinity, my final(i hope) Masque rules:

A Harlequin band may choose a Masque to practice before the battle. These masques are taught to them by a Great Harlequin who has knowlage of the masque being taught.
If the Harlequin army is led by a Great Harlequin then you may select a masque to be taught to the band from the following list. Every Harlequin in the army must have the masque, not just single squads or models.
The masques are:
Masque of the Dark Veil at +3 pts/model.
The Great Harlequin uses his or her intimate  knowledge of the webway to open a portal at a strategic location on the battlefield, allowing the Harlequins to leap upon their unsuspecting foes or snatch a vital objective before the enemy can reach it. The entire Harlequin army starts the battle in reserve. However, you may roll for units to turn up from the start of the first turn rather than the second turn, as shown on the following chart:

Turn                        1    2    3  4+
D6 score to arrive  5+  4+  3+  2+

Before you roll to see which units turn up the first turn, you must nominate a point on the battlefield to be the webway exit (mark it with a counter or coin if you like). Any units which turn up from reserve must move on from that point, rather than moving on from a table edge. You may move the webway exit by 2D6" at the start of each subsequent Harlequin turn (before rolling to see which units arrive).

Masque of the Last Laugh at +2pts/model
The Great Harlequin has trained his or her warriors to lash out at their enemies in their death throes, ensuring that they do not die alone. When a Harlequin is killed in an assault they may immediately make one attack against the model that killed them, resolved using the normal rules. The Harlequin can only ever make one attacks, regardless of how many they could normally make, and may make this attack even if they have already attacked that turn. Once the attack has been resolved the Harlequin model is removed as normal.
Note: This may not be taken by a HArlequin Wrathlord due to the fact that they are already dead.

Masque of the Laughing God at +1pt/model.
It is claimed that the patron of the Harlequins, the Laughing God, saves their souls from Chaos. When the Harlequins perform the Masque of the Laughing God, they call upon him to aid them against the daemons and warriors of the False God of Chaos. Through their ritual dances, they create protective auras of energy around themselves, disrupting the magicks that bind daemons to the real world. The Masque of the Laughing God means that a Chaos player who is summoning daemons to the battlefield cannot place any part of the template within 6" of a Harlequin model (before rolling the scatter dice). See Warhammer 40,000 or Codex: Chaos for more details of summoning daemons. The Masque of the Laughing God has no effect against Greater Daemons possessing models (see Codex: Chaos).

Masque of the Red Death at +2pts/model.
The Harlequins converge on a single point, taking it in turns to leap upon the enemy before withdrawing and allowing another troupe to attack. A Harlequin unit can choose to withdraw from an assault at the end of any assault phase (after all results have been worked out and any morale checks have been taken). The unit simply moves 2D6" away from the enemy unit. This move cannot be used to take the Harlequin unit into a fresh enemy. The enemy unit that the Harlequins have withdrawn from may make a consolidate move. This tactic is most effective when your units work in pairs; one unit charging, and then withdrawing from the fight in the opponent's assault phase, allowing the other unit to shoot and charge the enemy in your next turn.


Masque of the Shifting Shadows at +10pts/squad or Independent Character
The Harlequins dance and weave around each other, creating an ever-shifting miasma of colour. This serves to further confuse and entrance the enemy and makes it impossible to discern exactly how many warriors are attacking. When working out if one side outnumbers the other after an assault, the Harlequins are always considered as many as their opponents, regardless of the facts at hand. If the Harlequins are using Hallucinogen grenades they are counted as outnumbering their opponents 2:1. Note about points cost: Death Jesters pay 10pts per elites choice chosen, not per model, as they are effectively a squad.
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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #68 on: July 3, 2003, 09:21:46 PM »
I wasn't asking for it, I was merely stating that you shouldn't be afraid to repost something if it makes it easier to see.

What do you think about that Rasmus?

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #69 on: July 4, 2003, 03:19:53 AM »
I still say it looks overly complicated, as it mean recounting the point-total for the entire Masque (the old name for a Harlequin army) every time another trouper is added, or the Great Harlequin changed power. There has to be a simpler way. Perhaps the Masques could be altered to that they only affect Harlequins within 18" of the GH? That way the size of the battle will matter little, and it will also insure the central position of the GH in battle. No more leading from the rear.

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Offline Inquisitor Daedalus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #70 on: July 4, 2003, 04:07:26 AM »
I think the GW development team ran into something like this with the Kroot and evalutionary adaptaions. It uses the points/model thing that Von Lazuli used in his thing. They tried to think of something better, but coukdn't.

It may be complicated, but it works. If you need to addone more models, you have to add 2 more points, which might bring you just over that limit. It's tough, but it does work.
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Offline Von Lazuli

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Re:New updated Harlequins army biulder file.
« Reply #71 on: July 4, 2003, 05:07:47 AM »
You see the Kroot one is not the most effective, as you add the adaptation to each squad in turn, thus I think your 18" one is good gameplay wise but it doesn't really make sense if you think about it.
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Offline Von Lazuli

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #72 on: July 4, 2003, 05:10:36 AM »
Your 18" one is good Rasmus but it doesn't really work fluff wise, I mean why do you become more skilled just because you are close to the Great Harlequin?
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Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #73 on: July 4, 2003, 08:34:15 AM »
Think about it; the Harlequins are a highly skilled troupe of dancers and performers, just as any group of musicians, dancers or actors. However, when near someone with a true grasp of the play they are making, the director, conductor, or manager, in this case the great Harlequin, they can mimic him closer, getting closer to perfection.
It would eliminate the more complicated point/per model cost on another model.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #74 on: July 4, 2003, 09:19:13 AM »
First of all: Mask of the Last Laugh is too expensive.  It needs to be 10 flat per squad or maybe 11.  This is returning to the Catalyst argument, which is 10 for 32, but requires a psychic test.

The thing is Rasmus, is 18" too much?  Many of these armies will be racing forward at full speed, never that far apart.  And if you use Veil, its a moot point--you are all arriving at the same close spot.  Maybe it should be something small like 9". (I know thats odd, off the top of my head.)  That way, getting the mask would be off balanced by the fact that you have to bunch up.

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #75 on: July 4, 2003, 10:04:57 AM »
That makes sense.
12" then?

What would be the new costs for the Masques, if they need change at all?

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #76 on: July 4, 2003, 11:15:05 AM »
12" would be good.

Veil needs to be 50 as it is the same principal.  I think they can stay the same though.

Offline Indro Tyr

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #77 on: July 4, 2003, 12:05:31 PM »
I would just make it the squad being lead by the GH. Otherwise stuff could get really ugly with blast weapons if too many Harlequins are getting close together. Also the Harlequin lines are already usually stretched thin, and putting too many together allows them to be sorrounded and flanked much easier, and the Harlequin's speed already give them the advantage of being able to do that to opposing armies, not the other way around.
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Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #78 on: July 4, 2003, 12:06:42 PM »
Well that is chance you have to take if you want to get the effects of the Masques. A tactical gamble.

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Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #79 on: July 4, 2003, 05:21:06 PM »
I have edited and updated the list. I also revised some wordings, and fixed some typos that had been pointed out to me.

Keep it coming.

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