News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Grand plans of the Harlequins...?  (Read 2839 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kage2020

  • Knower of Things
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6998
  • Country: us
  • Mar a tha, mar a bha, mar a bhitheas vyth go bragh
Grand plans of the Harlequins...?
« on: January 8, 2005, 12:02:07 AM »
Yup, it doesn't sound like the kind of post that I would put up but still... I've got my approach to what is 'going on' with the Harlequins, the goals of the craftworld eldar, etc., but thought that I would ask peope for their own.  So, what is going on with the grand plans of the Harlequins?  Do they even have them?  Are they the same as the cegorach whom they supposedly service?  How does this tie in with the eldar ing eneral, or ven the 40k universe in general?

Just some, erm, questions... ;)

Kage

Offline Dark Flame

  • I messed with the wrong farseers AGAIN, yet somehow became an unactive Mod
  • Ancient
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2657
Re: Grand plans of the Harlequins...?
« Reply #1 on: January 8, 2005, 12:22:59 AM »
  I'd say that their goals are that of Cegorach.  They have served him for many millenia now, and I feel that if they weren't gurthering his goals, then he wouldn't have let them live.  However, they could easily be working for their own unknown agenda, though I doubt it.  Even if they were, there isn't really any way of knowing what Cegorach would do, him being likely the most unpredictable of all the gods in the 40k universe.

  I'd say that their goals are basically what they were described to be:  The uniting of the Eldar race.  However, I don't think that they mean this in the way that it seems, or else they would likely have made some sort of headway into it already, beyond the Eldar that they have brought into their troupes.  I think that possibly they mean to unite the Eldar in the afterlife, not in the real universe, and there battle Slaanesh, where it would be most vulnerable.  In order to do this, they would have to teach the ways of the Laughing God, Cegorach, and teach the Eldar not to degenerate back into the state the were in before the Fall.  They do this through the dances that they preform.

  The battle they are uniting the Eldar for is definately the Rhana Dhandra, though as I said before, I fell that it would be on the spiritual plain as apposed to the physical plain.  This would be the battle that makes the Warp once again safe for the Eldar souls to reside in.

  This theory isn't fully worked out, and it's just something I've been toying with lately, but I feel it's a start.  Anyway, stop all the suspence, and let's hear your theory.

Offline Kage2020

  • Knower of Things
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6998
  • Country: us
  • Mar a tha, mar a bha, mar a bhitheas vyth go bragh
Re: Grand plans of the Harlequins...?
« Reply #2 on: January 8, 2005, 12:27:57 AM »
I'd say that it is a given that the Harlequins goals are those of the Laughing God... Nothing too original there.  One wouldn't want the 'fluff' to sprain itself by being original! ;)

With that said, you mention reunification in death?  Is this just a plain 'ole tie in with the 'dying race' approach?

As to my approach?  I wanted to hear other peoples' approach.  When I think of Harlequins, phrases such as "Metarune", "Greatest Secret", "gestalt consciousness" and so forth spring to mind... But let's hear more about other people! :D

Kage

Offline Dark Flame

  • I messed with the wrong farseers AGAIN, yet somehow became an unactive Mod
  • Ancient
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2657
Re: Grand plans of the Harlequins...?
« Reply #3 on: January 8, 2005, 12:36:26 AM »
  By the reunification in death bit, I'm not tying it into the dying race line, since I don't see Elar as a dying race in that they are losing numbers, but in that they are small compared to all other major races, save for the Tau.  The way I see it, the Harlequins through some of their dances, are trying to teach the Eldar how to embrace the Lauging God, and give them a way to die without using the Spirit Stones.  I doubt that the teaching proccess is done, but when it is, the Eldar will be able to die, and then unite against Slaanesh in the afterlife.  As I said beforethou, I'm still thinking this over, and even as I'm writing it, I'm thinking I need to think it thrue a few more times.

  Anyway, I want to hear your opinion as much as I want to hear others.  I don't think it's fair how you're flaunting how you have an opinion having to do with great secrets and all, but refuse to share it.   ::)


 ;)

Offline Kage2020

  • Knower of Things
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6998
  • Country: us
  • Mar a tha, mar a bha, mar a bhitheas vyth go bragh
Re: Grand plans of the Harlequins...?
« Reply #4 on: January 8, 2005, 12:01:02 PM »
Quote from: Dark Flame
The way I see it, the Harlequins through some of their dances, are trying to teach the Eldar how to embrace the Lauging God, and give them a way to die without using the Spirit Stones.
Ah yes, the piece of 'fluff' that states that Harlequins don't make use of spirit stones.  (A quick point of clarification.  If I refer to 'spirit stones' I'm actually talking about Waystones that, once they are integrated into the Infinity Circuit, become spirit stones.  That's just in case I slip, as I deliberately did just then, since I normally refer to them as Waystones.  As for Spirit Stones, these are the 'Tears of Isha' and are something completely different, rather being a form of psychic focus.)  Not sure whether I like it even though I it would work with my interpretation regardless.  It's just the whole idea that every 'splinter race', just like every craftworld, has to be different so that they (GW) can sell more miniatures, books or whatever.  (Yes, I know, they are a company and garnering profits is what they do, and what they do really well!)

Quote from: Dark Flame
I doubt that the teaching proccess is done, but when it is, the Eldar will be able to die, and then unite against Slaanesh in the afterlife.
Yet the Dances seem to teach of the history, not the righteousness and correctness of the 'path' that the Harlequins have decided to follow.  While the Harlequins are seen as a part of the current eldar society they are not seen as paragons.  The Laughing God does not have disciple after disciple flocking to him as the savior of the eldar race, the automatic 'get out clause' for the heritage of the eldar...

Quote from: Dark Flame
As I said beforethou, I'm still thinking this over, and even as I'm writing it, I'm thinking I need to think it thrue a few more times.
That's the joy about discussing theories and the reason tht the forums have been a bit quiet recently.  There really are vry ew 'big' discussions that do not revolve around some search for information, which is kind of disappointing.  Anyway...

Quote from: Dark Flame
I don't think it's fair how you're flaunting how you have an opinion having to do with great secrets and all, but refuse to share it.
The "Greatest Secret" is just the broad name for an alternative theory about the 'death' of the eldar gods which ultimately linked into the Harlequins and the Laughing God, and therefore the Webway and the Eternal Matrix, and from their unto Ynnaed...

Kage

Offline Flash_hound

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2311
  • Country: us
Re: Grand plans of the Harlequins...?
« Reply #5 on: January 8, 2005, 11:11:18 PM »
To me, it doesn't seem that they have a huge goal.  From fluff they just want to keep eldar on the path, and to save eldar souls (no matter what the way is so they don't care about DE and CWE and Exodite difference.)  Also they want to make sure the fall doesn't happen again by educating eldar.

Offline Kage2020

  • Knower of Things
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6998
  • Country: us
  • Mar a tha, mar a bha, mar a bhitheas vyth go bragh
Re: Grand plans of the Harlequins...?
« Reply #6 on: January 9, 2005, 01:24:18 PM »
To me, it doesn't seem that they have a huge goal...
True, it's not necessary for the wargame or necessarily for the 'fluff' integrity... But don't you think that it would be fun if they did have something.  Rather than the goal of every race to be to fight other races, that they had something else to them? ;)

Kage

Offline Dainn

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 425
  • This is no penguin, it's a pinguin!
Re: Grand plans of the Harlequins...?
« Reply #7 on: January 9, 2005, 03:42:28 PM »
Didn't it say somewhere in one of the codices (2nd ed?) that they have some big, secret plan? That should give you a clue whether they have one or not. ;)

The way I see it, the Harlequins through some of their dances, are trying to teach the Eldar how to embrace the Lauging God, and give them a way to die without using the Spirit Stones.
Yet the only reason why Harlequins are able to die without spirit stone *blabla waystone blabla* ::) and aren't eaten by Slaanesh is that Cegorach fights with him/her/it and therefore distracts him/her/it long enough to let the spirit escape. But as Slaanesh is way stronger, Cegorach is seriously weakened after every fight. If all Eldar would join the Harlequins in the way you're describing it, Cegorach would either be destroyed trying to save all souls or he'll have to let a lot of them go(to be consumed by Slaanesh).

I'm not sure what happens to the spirits Cegorach saves, I think they become part of him, but as I said before, I'm not totally sure.

Yet the Dances seem to teach of the history, not the righteousness and correctness of the 'path' that the Harlequins have decided to follow.
But the past is often a better teacher than the future, especially as the Eldar have quite dramatic parts in their history.
And in most, if not all dances the harlequins perform, Cegorach plays a role. That way they can easily portray him as a "Superhero".

Offline Kage2020

  • Knower of Things
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6998
  • Country: us
  • Mar a tha, mar a bha, mar a bhitheas vyth go bragh
Re: Grand plans of the Harlequins...?
« Reply #8 on: January 9, 2005, 09:47:36 PM »
Didn't it say somewhere in one of the codices (2nd ed?) that they have some big, secret plan? That should give you a clue whether they have one or not. ;)
It's easy to ascribe plans, or mystery, if you don't touch on the subject.  Point in wonder at the area of mist and go, "Oooooh..." ;)  Trying to determine interconnection between the disparate 'fluff', well that's another thing entirely! :D

Yet the only reason why Harlequins are able to die without spirit stone *blabla waystone blabla* ::)
<grin> Incorrect terminology leads to a huge number of questions being asked that, more than likely, wouldn't be asked if people used the correct term.  The number of times that I've seen a "Spirit Stone" and a "spirit stone" confused is surprisingly large.  Furthermore, it is this level of 'confusion' that tends to block the 40k universe from people who might otherwise enjoy it.

...and aren't eaten by Slaanesh is that Cegorach fights with him/her/it and therefore distracts him/her/it long enough to let the spirit escape.
That is what happened between Slaanesh, Khorne, Khaine and the Cegorach at the birth of Slaanesh.  A very special set of circumstances that one would imagine would be nigh on impossible to recreate in the 'modern' 40k universe. 

I'm not sure what happens to the spirits Cegorach saves, I think they become part of him, but as I said before, I'm not totally sure.
Personally I know what happens to them, although I do not have the cegorach intervening with the death of every soul.  Rather, like the Waystones, there must be some form of other intervention... ;)

And in most, if not all dances the harlequins perform, Cegorach plays a role. That way they can easily portray him as a "Superhero".
Out of interest, is there a 'fluff' quote to support this?  I've always been of the opinion that the mythological cycles were a somewhat allegorical way of portraying the pat and that the past did not exclusively deal with the cegorach.  (And, further, that the eldar also had alternative records of the past more in common with our own historical records...)

Kage

Offline Dainn

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 425
  • This is no penguin, it's a pinguin!
Re: Grand plans of the Harlequins...?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2005, 03:04:56 PM »
That is what happened between Slaanesh, Khorne, Khaine and the Cegorach at the birth of Slaanesh.  A very special set of circumstances that one would imagine would be nigh on impossible to recreate in the 'modern' 40k universe. 

...

Personally I know what happens to them, although I do not have the cegorach intervening with the death of every soul.  Rather, like the Waystones, there must be some form of other intervention... ;)
Hmm, I just read my 2nd ed codex again, and I've seen I was mistaken. It indeed doesn't mention Cegorach fighting over every Harlequin soul. But it does mention Cegorach fighting over every Solitaire soul, so appareantly it is possible for him to distract Slaanesh for a little while. (Unless it's just Eldar/Harlequin superstition, in which case you wouldn't be able to believe anything in the Codex anymore ;))

[Out of interest, is there a 'fluff' quote to support this?  I've always been of the opinion that the mythological cycles were a somewhat allegorical way of portraying the pat and that the past did not exclusively deal with the cegorach.  (And, further, that the eldar also had alternative records of the past more in common with our own historical records...)
Great, I was mistaken again, it must have been late when I replied... ::)
There's indeed no fluff saying Cegorach plays a role in all dances, but I've yet to read about a dance where Cegorach isn't played, as I've only read about some (not sure where, 2nd ed codex or white dwarf maybe) where he is.

Offline Rasmus

  • The Ratcatcher
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33046
  • Country: 00
  • Lost Roads are now found!
    • 40kOnline
  • Armies: Squats
Re: Grand plans of the Harlequins...?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2005, 03:56:22 PM »
I have always liked the phrase "God works in myserious ways". Cegorach is a god, and really really mysterious and enigmatic in his actions. It is possible the Harlequins are not even aware of the ultimate goal, but follow the "whims" of the Great Harlequin leading the Masque, inspired by their god dreaming away in the webway...

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

Offline Kage2020

  • Knower of Things
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6998
  • Country: us
  • Mar a tha, mar a bha, mar a bhitheas vyth go bragh
Re: Grand plans of the Harlequins...?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2005, 08:49:22 PM »
...but follow the "whims" of the Great Harlequin leading the Masque, inspired by their god dreaming away in the webway...
And that is, indeed, the crux of it...

Kage

 


Powered by EzPortal