News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: The Eldar Paths trilogy (spoilers alert)  (Read 3263 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Khain Mor (/kharandhil)

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2886
  • Country: be
  • <3 huskblades
    • Dark Moon Kabal
The Eldar Paths trilogy (spoilers alert)
« on: February 24, 2013, 10:17:37 PM »
I prefer being open minded about this, people who haven't read all books yet, don't look any further.

I had some doubts where this should be posted, this is all eldar related, so I figured this would be the best place. The books serve as a base, but I don't to intend to stay talking only about the books, I'm here to talk about the Eldar Paths in general as well (eventually move it, if you think this thread belongs in a better place)


First I'll start with a question?
What Path would you follow, most likely?

As far as aspect warriors, Scorpions are my favorite, this is why I related very well to the first character. If I ever was on a craftworld, I would join a scorpion squad purely for the fun of it probably. The the path of the seer would seem pretty. I doubt I would get stuck on a path ,especially the path of the seer. Watching terrible things happen, not being able to do something about it, it jut seems so pointless. My Ultimate goal would be that of the Autarch, I've always been the leader type anyway, now this only if for some reason I would be stuck on a carftworld for some reason (probably a woman most likely)

After reading this trigoly, it became 100% clear to be, I would be a pirate, probably corsair at first, but then go full dark eldar, as dark eldar can live a lot longer than normal eldar.
I've always been attracted to the dark side anyway, but it's not for the sake of being evil per se, it's more about controlling my own life and my own desires.


Now back on the book (full spoiler alert)
At the end I really hate Thirianna, she was so powerless, seeing he friends die, seeing how badly they were doing, not do anything about it. She was in love with a guy, but refused to be with him? Really made no sence, I believe that if she had followed her feeling, Korlandril, might have made it. The future of the craftworld would be unsure however. I do believe it was the purpose for Korlandril to join the path of the warrior, to stall that final attack, to give Aradryan the time to come, but I do think: things might have still worked out, without his sacrifice.
I love how Aradryan asked Thirianna to look after their friend, but she let him get hurt and eventually die...What kind of a friend is that. She could have changed things, she did somewhere at the end, but when she had to help her friend, she did nothing, in fact she might in a way send him to his own death.
Aradryan was fun to follow, but he was way too naive and too innocent for his own sake. It think the best path for him, would have been to leave the craftworld and never return. He still remained close to his craftworld and that caused a lot of trouble.
it's pretty funny to see how the end is releaved at the very end of the book, you actually read almost nothing about the battle on the craftworld in the last book, till the end, when you get the conclusion. The first two books had both very fair amount of pages about the battles, while the last one was spend mostly outside of the craftworld.

Reading these book I learned a lot of thnings about the eldar and about the eldar paths.

For intance, the rangers, they are a lot stranger than one would imagine. No leaders, they all do whatever they want, this includes visiting very weird, strange place. From what I know, I don't think they would have any problems visiting Commoragh either, if they somehow got the chance. The piece spend in the Webway city was very interesting, teaching me exactly to what bounderies rangers would be free. I was even a little shocked when they talking about extreme body modifications, eldar style, it's a lot more extreme than what we human do.
Knowing this, I'm completely not surprised to see a ranger go Dark Eldar in the Path of the Renegade book.

Now on Eldar paths. I find Exarchs to be very similar to Dark eldar actually.  Both share an interest for blood and fighting, thye are both very dark, even if exarch are less sadistic, they still think about nothing else than fighting. When you actually think about it, incubi are all exarch like. The leader is just a stronger individual, since dark eldar have no path, incubi can think and dream on about killing all they want, without anyone stopping them. Knowing all this, I could very much see an Eldar exarch or a trapped aspect warrior, go full dark eldar.
Exarchs when you think about it, are like softer versions of dark eldar, living within the craftworlds, themselves.
One thing though, I was actually extremely surprised, but I see it as possible, to see an incubus go eldar. I though a dark eldar, would be to consumed by his lust to become soft. Incubi might  be the exception though, with their rituals and mysterious ways (patiently awaiting the new Path of the Incubus book) 

Now the Seer path, it find it very frustrating. Thirianna claims she can't/shouldn't change destiny, she does eventually and she knows it at the end. Why no help her friends?
These have nothing to do with dark eldar, as these individuals attack possibly the most feeling to their homeworld and friends. They aren't allowed to live in Commoragh anyway.
I found it very interesting to read how their seer powers work. It's very confusing and very complicated.

Now who know why they worked to hard to keep that incubi alive in the first book, however seeing how big the sacrifices were, i'm guessing that was the destiny of a future Autarch. I don't see why eldar even a Phoenix lord would sacrifice himself to save a dark eldar, that was completely unexpected.  It was the same unexpected turn of events I felt when reading Path of the Renegade when at the end, the ranger kills a very old Archon, becoming the main villain himself. 

I learned quite a lot about Exodites as well, how the Paths were a trap. I have to say I enjoy exodites, a bit like a vacation, not that I would stay on an exodite world forever, but if I was a corsair, I would help them at times.

It was fun to read about Harlequins as well, I would have never expected to see a great Harlequin simply be convinced that easily. It was was more like what I would expect from a commoraghan. The solitaire was awesome, that guy definetly needs a model, he's way too important to be ignored, I miss the old days where Harlies could actually be played as a real army.
I'm really looking forward to the new upcoming book, can't wait to read more harlequin material.



One thing in general about these books I did discover though: the Eldar are a lot weirder than I could ever imagine. I don't think I've been open-minded enough about this race, never imagine the vastness of possibilities and differences between humans and eldar.
Several times while reading I was thinking: what the...eldar are even weirder than I imagined them to be.
These books also really made me start thinking about why the eldar are so scaterred and what side I would joing myself, if I was an eldar (which as far as 40k goes, I'm always eldar)

Take the parth about Dreamer, on a craftworld, you're allowed to drug yourself for howmuch time you want. Even worse, people will feed you, take care of you, while you do? Just what the hell  :o. Honestly I do find it attractive to not have to do certain things, I hate cleaning for instance, how awesome would it be to have people do everything for you. The path of service is really useful.

Another thing I found very disturbing, the way to create waystones, it's was really unexpected, not at all what I imagined, based on what the eldar tales told .
The Dark Moon Kabal ,possibly the biggest DE army ever!
over 20k and awesome, what more do you need to click? (last updated the 02/03/2012)

Nothing better than killing a thousand slaves to wake up in the morning.

Offline magenb

  • Aspect Warrior
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2162
  • Country: au
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
Re: The Eldar Paths trilogy (spoilers alert)
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2013, 11:43:00 PM »

First I'll start with a question?
What Path would you follow, most likely?

".. as dark eldar can live a lot longer than normal eldar."

Bonesinger - creating something out of thin air!!
Warlock would also be interessting, but Farseer would be too far as you end up being crystal (if you live that long)

You want to be a DE.... CWE have soul stones to protect them from she-who-thirst, DE must hide their soul (see current codex) by feeding off the pain of others, they are hardcore evil SOBs, not the diet evil pirate in the book.



Another thing I found very disturbing, the way to create waystones, it's was really unexpected, not at all what I imagined, based on what the eldar tales told .

I wouldn't take this as cannon, as I think the tears of Isha were around before the fall, I'll see if I can dig this out.
EDIT: Yes, it was in the original White Dwarf entry for the Eldar race, Vaul turned Isha's tears into Soul Stones so the Eldar could talk to the Goddess.



Now back on the book (full spoiler alert)
At the end I really hate Thirianna, she was so powerless, seeing he friends die, seeing how badly they were doing, not do anything about it.

Thirianna suffered inner turmoil over the choice to help her friends and her path as a seer, she was going through this even when talking to him as an Exarch. There is a warning about messing with fate early on in her training as well.



I was even a little shocked when they talking about extreme body modifications, eldar style, it's a lot more extreme than what we human do.

We have people trying to turn themselves into tigers... The World's ... And Me | Cat Man | Channel 4   Given the chance I'm sure there are some crazy people that would go nuts with those mods too :)

I don't see why eldar even a Phoenix lord would sacrifice himself to save a dark eldar, that was completely unexpected.

ummm which book are you talking about?  The PL went down fighting with the Striking Scorpions and their Exarch, to save the Craftworld in the "Path" series.








« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 11:56:10 PM by magenb »

Offline Lachdonin

  • Warlock
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3534
  • Country: 00
  • Education is no substitute for Intelligence.
Re: The Eldar Paths trilogy (spoilers alert)
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2013, 12:56:08 AM »
Ok, first, some things i'd like to mention... Yes, Spirit Stones predate the fall, but we know they are pure, condensed Warp energy, which means soul-energy. The Pre-Fall Eldar may have had other ways to create them, but i think the creation depicted in Path of the Outcast paints a rather complex and haunting picture of the Craftworlders. They literally survive because of the ones who brought about the destruction of the Empire. One also has to take into account that all other sources are quasi-mythic in nature, where as in the Path of the Outcast we are given a true explination.

Second, Kharandras sacrifices himself to save that one Scorpion, shoving him out of the way and getting into the path of the Dreadnaught. I think he did this because it was, after all, the Phoenix Lords who were largely responsible for the Path, and said Scorpion was a representation that the Path system is better than the alternatives.

Now, to Kharandhil... I think you have missed a few things. First, Thirianna does try to help he friends. It's one of the primary reasons she joined the Path of the Seer (because they were all drifting appart) and the manipulations of the fate of the 3 of them is what, in fact, causes the whole mess in the first place. The war never would have made it to Alaitoc were it not for her trying to help her friends.

Second, she spurns Khorlandril because she is changing Paths, and Khorlandril loves Thirianna the Poet. There are subtle hints dropped in all 3 books indicating that the Paths have dramatic influances on the personalities and perceptions of the individual Eldar. When on the Path of the Artist, Khorlandril's outlook on the world, his interests and even his speech patterns are dramaticly different than they are on the Path of the Warrior, and even (to Aradryan's eye, at least) when he was on the Path of the Dreamer. Thirianna states quite plainly that, while she does love Khorlandril, they should wait to see how the Path of the Seer affects her before commiting to anything, something which Khorlandril rejects (through the characteristic impatience he exhibits as an artist).

Then there is the Harlequin. I don't think he was actually convinced very easily. When you pay attention to who is saying what, he totally dissregards everyone's attempts to catch his attention, save for one person. A person who, you learn later, had their own particularly interesting reason for going into the Eye. I would hardly call any of it being convinced easily, especially consdiering it was likely that troupe leaders only chance in his lifetime to witness what happened.

I also think that there is one major thing which seperates the Exarch's from the Incubi or other Dark Eldar, and that is purpose. The only thing that keeps a Dark Eldar from killing is self preservation. The Exarch's, on the other hand, don't kill out of purpose. It would seem, through the example of the Exarch's, that even Path-locked individuals can override their nature by having a reason to exist. The Exarch's are all bloodthirst, murderous individuals who love nothing more than killing, but their purpose within society, and their duty to their race, keeps that rage in check.

Which of course brings me to closing arguements... I think what's portrayed at the Webway-Interspace, and the comments of Aradryan's female companion (i forget her name...) paints an interesting image of the Craftworlders and Dark Eldar which differs from the perspective we generally get from either codex. Both are doomed. The Dark Eldar will, eventually, destroy themselves, either through infighting, the continued degredation of the webway, or the increasingly oppressive need for more and more slaves. The Craftworlders lose more and more every generation to the Path-locked and to wanderlust. The inhabitants of the Interspace, on the other hand, live largely free from both, showing that there is a way the Eldar, as a species can survive, and it's not the Dark Eldar or the Craftworlders who hold the key.

At the same time, i didn't like the overall portrayl of the Eldar, in terms of psychic nature. I much prefered Goto's depiction in Eldar Prophesy, in which the Eldar as a whole are just one giant psychic net, feeding empathicly off eachother. This would better explain how pre-battle thoughts awaken the Avatar, with the gratual buildup of warlike impulses and the donning of hundreds of war-masks empowering the psychic frame of the Craftworld. As it is, in the Path books, the Avatar seems to know more about comming battles than anyone else. It seems all very forced, whereas Goto's Eldar seems like a more naturally psychic species.

As for the question... I choose no Path, because after reading the books, i am more convinced than ever that the Path system is destroying the Eldar.
Remember, you can make yourself a Hero, but only others can make you a God.

Offline Eldar_Atog

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Country: 00
  • just an old gamer
Re: The Eldar Paths trilogy (spoilers alert)
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2013, 02:47:47 PM »
Eldar Prophecy portayed the psychic nature of the Eldar better but it missed on so many other points. The idea of the paths are completely lost in Goto's book.

There's a quote from Delenn on Babylon 5 that I think describes the nature of the Eldar very well:

*talking about the Minbari people* "We are at our best when we move together, and we are at our worst when we move together. When our leader was killed by your people, we went mad together. We stayed mad for a very long time, a madness that almost consumed your world, until finally, before it was too late, we woke up together."


Offline Lachdonin

  • Warlock
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3534
  • Country: 00
  • Education is no substitute for Intelligence.
Re: The Eldar Paths trilogy (spoilers alert)
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2013, 03:12:30 PM »
Eldar Prophecy portayed the psychic nature of the Eldar better but it missed on so many other points. The idea of the paths are completely lost in Goto's book.

In that regard you also have to consider the state of Kaelor at the time. The Path had all but broken down in favor of a more Pre-Fall system, with only the Exarch's trying to maintain any sense of the stability and sense of purpose the Path is supposed to offer. Eldar Prophesy was something of a warning of what can happen when the Eldar forsake the Path, and in a way can be seen as a darker parallel to the Interspace in Path of the Outcast.
Remember, you can make yourself a Hero, but only others can make you a God.

Offline magenb

  • Aspect Warrior
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2162
  • Country: au
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
Re: The Eldar Paths trilogy (spoilers alert)
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2013, 04:27:53 PM »
Ok, first, some things i'd like to mention... Yes, Spirit Stones predate the fall, but we know they are pure, condensed Warp energy, which means soul-energy. The Pre-Fall Eldar may have had other ways to create them, but i think the creation depicted in Path of the Outcast paints a rather complex and haunting picture of the Craftworlders. They literally survive because of the ones who brought about the destruction of the Empire. One also has to take into account that all other sources are quasi-mythic in nature, where as in the Path of the Outcast we are given a true explination.

That explination assumes that souls/spirits still exists on the home worlds, which seems to go against the idea of she-who-thirsts consuming all of them.

EDIT: There is a note about Soul Stones in the 2nd edition codex Page 56. Apparently the Stones can appear near webway gates and the Crone worlds are meant to be made up entirely of them.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 04:33:07 PM by magenb »

Offline Lachdonin

  • Warlock
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3534
  • Country: 00
  • Education is no substitute for Intelligence.
Re: The Eldar Paths trilogy (spoilers alert)
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2013, 05:42:35 PM »
I don't think you can call what they witness in Path of the Outcast souls. More like echos. When what happens, happens (trying to be vague) it is the moment their souls were consumed, leaving only vague remnants of themselves to be collected.

If we assume (rather reasonably) that Spirit Stones are like Warpstone from Fantasy, being pure, condensed Warp energy, Those collected on the Crone Worlds, as seen in Path of the Outcast, would already be in a refined state, being formed directly from Eldar minds, and thus ready to use. The material which collects near webway gates would also be somewhat refined, filtered from the warp through the webway, but not nearly to the same level as the first example. Finally, the absolute raw stuff, found as mineral deposits on Crone Worlds, in Warp Storms and probably even on Space Hulks would be the hardest to work with, and in some cases may even be too tainted to use.

You also cannot take older published material at absolute face value, particularly when you consider the more 'canon story' approach alot of GW's publications have been taking. Older Eldar material states that those Eldar who actually make it back from the Crone Worlds are immeasurably rare, and those few who do are so broken physically and spiritually they don't live long. If the Crone Worlds are the only source of Spirit Stones (or at least sufficient quality to be useful) this seems like a system doomed to failure.

Remember, you can make yourself a Hero, but only others can make you a God.

Offline Bumbles

  • I supported No'Akei and all I got was this silly title
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2449
  • Country: au
Re: The Eldar Paths trilogy (spoilers alert)
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2013, 05:55:29 PM »
What Path would you follow, most likely?
Path of the Breadmaker ;) I want to be the Exarch of Toast!
Less flippantly, after Masque of Vyle (which incidentally, "confirms in fluff" that soul stones were designed to be a connection between Isha and the Eldar after the gods and the Eldar were forcibly seperated) I want to be a Harlequin (but knowing my luck I'd end up as a Solitaire). Basically their the "justice department" for the Eldar race.

Offline magenb

  • Aspect Warrior
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2162
  • Country: au
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
Re: The Eldar Paths trilogy (spoilers alert)
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2013, 06:28:57 PM »
You also cannot take older published material at absolute face value, particularly when you consider the more 'canon story' approach alot of GW's publications have been taking. Older Eldar material states that those Eldar who actually make it back from the Crone Worlds are immeasurably rare, and those few who do are so broken physically and spiritually they don't live long. If the Crone Worlds are the only source of Spirit Stones (or at least sufficient quality to be useful) this seems like a system doomed to failure.

That would tie into the whole doomed race theme though. I also see this feeding into the extreme lengths they will go to, to recover/collect the stones, as each stone is not only difficult to replace, but reduced the total CWE population. Which in turn would explain why a known doomed race is not going on a mass breeding program :)


Offline Katamari Damacy

  • Aspect Warrior
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 880
  • Country: ch
  • Armies: Eldar Empire, Dwarfs
Re: The Eldar Paths trilogy (spoilers alert)
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2013, 04:39:40 PM »
Less flippantly, after Masque of Vyle (which incidentally, "confirms in fluff" that soul stones were designed to be a connection between Isha and the Eldar after the gods and the Eldar were forcibly seperated) I want to be a Harlequin (but knowing my luck I'd end up as a Solitaire). Basically their the "justice department" for the Eldar race.

Really? Being the Soitaire would be pretty much the coolest thing no? I thought both Motley as well as Lechthennian were pretty 'relaxed' about their role. As far as convincing the Great Harlequin in PotO, he simply got an "offer" he couldn't refuse. I would still like to see some pieces of fluff which describe how someone actually becomes a Harlequin. As far as i know, there is no such thing to date.

Masque of Vyle was pretty good too. The last two pages were especially great as they shed some more light on the Solitaire, but also raised new questions. "Spirit Stones? Mhhhm yummy!"  ;D
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 04:40:55 PM by Katamari Damacy »
The word 'politics' is derived from the word 'poly', meaning 'many', and the word 'ticks', meaning 'blood sucking parasites'.

Offline Bumbles

  • I supported No'Akei and all I got was this silly title
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2449
  • Country: au
Re: The Eldar Paths trilogy (spoilers alert)
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2013, 06:42:00 PM »
There's an implication in Masque of Vyle that eventually [spoiler]all Solitaires end up not just 'playing' She-Who-Thirsts, but end up AS She-Who-Thirsts, basically little avatars of the greatest enemy of the Eldar species.
In fact, what we see could very well be Motley's mask slipping and Slaanesh going on a rampage rather then the last act of the Masque. If that's true, then it casts the entire plot of the two DE books in an entirely different light.[/spoiler]

 


Powered by EzPortal