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Author Topic: Eldar on psyker scale  (Read 4974 times)

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Offline DreamSeer

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Eldar on psyker scale
« on: July 27, 2011, 10:22:35 AM »
I was searching for this, but didn`t find any reliable information. Where do you think do Eldar Farseers and Warlkocks and others stack on IOM psyker scale?? I`v heard more then a few time that Farseers should be alpha + but I have never seen any prof of that. 

Offline Benis

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2011, 11:20:54 AM »
Eldar psykers could potentially be extremely powerful but they have their hands back tied due to the relationship between Eldar and Slaanesh. A Farseer could make use of some awesome powers but if he chose to do so he would most likely be eternally damned due to being consumed by daemons.

Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2011, 11:35:07 AM »
First off i don't know what an IOM Psyker Scale would be, but Fluff tells us, that Eldar have the most powerful Psykers in the 40K Universe - amongst the playable races that is. An averge Farseer would be about the level of a GK Psyker with Mastery (2) or so in my view, while old and wise Farseers or even Eldrad should be beyond comparison, except for other powerful individuals like Ahriman maybe.
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Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2011, 01:00:22 PM »
Eldar Farseers are, generally speaking, probably on par with a Alpha Level psyker. Not only can they toss tanks around, and turn your brain to mush, but they can see exactly where you'll be, sometimes thousands of years in the future, and then make sure you don't get there. I tend to view the Farseers in the same vein as a Grey Knight Prognosticar, except they don't have to focus on a specific thing (Daemons) and don't usually have to work in groups for accurate predictions.

Of course, we aren't sure where various Imperial psykers sit on the scale. I've never seen anything saying Librarians are Alpha level, though some rare individuals like Maphiston and Tigirus may be. If so, i'd expect your average Farseer would be, in principal at least, on par if not slightly supperior with the psychic heroes of the Imperium.

Warlocks, on the other hand, are simple Path-Travellers. Unlike Farseer's, they aren't bound to hte Path of the Seer, and i doub't many of them would become anywhere near as powerful. They'd probably be on part with a Grey Knight Justicator, or maybe a Paladin. Still superior to Sanctioned Psykers, and probably a Primus Spyker, but probably still below anything but the frst teir of Librarian.
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2011, 01:12:53 PM »
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Assignment

The problem with this scale is that it only measures raw power, not skill, not reliability, etc. just raw power. And while Warlocks and Farseers are powerful psykers, I personally this is as much because of the skill and ingenuity as their power. If it had been only due to their power, then their ability to predict the future wouldn't have been as unique.

It's very hard to discuss where Eldar would fall on this scale. This is partly due to the fact that just as humans, Eldar are probably not uniform in their levels of psychic powers. I'm sure that on a general level, the average eldar would be well above the average humans, but exactly where... I don't know.

Alpha-plus is an insanely high level of psychic powers, just so people don't mistakenly want to up everything for the rule of cool. Alpha-plus is lifting tanks into the air, throwing them around like ragdolls, and snapping titans in half, and making entire companies burst into flames or whatnot.

Offline myles

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2011, 01:46:07 PM »
Eldar psykers could potentially be extremely powerful but they have their hands back tied due to the relationship between Eldar and Slaanesh. A Farseer could make use of some awesome powers but if he chose to do so he would most likely be eternally damned due to being consumed by daemons.


This.

More than anything that scale is focused on the amount of power a psyker can safely wield as its main criterion for level. As Benis and Sir-Godspeed pointed out, it is not safe for Eldar to actually use this amount of raw power, they would be almost certainly eaten. However, we see that they are fully capable of doing so, they use abilities in battle that are comparable to those of the other races' most powerful combat psykers' typical skills. But with the limitations they must deal with they aren't seen wielding the power other races use without consideration. For example, Librarians and Warlocks (or Farseers) alike can unleash a torrent of warp energy that obliterates a bunch of armored warriors, this is clearly at the Beta or Alpha level. (Or Gamma, depending on your interpretation of the levels.) While the Librarian is perfectly willing to use this level of power to try and hurl an enemy into the warp directly, the Warlock or Farseer can't/won't try and open up holes to the warp willy-nilly. Eldar have the innate ability to use psychic powers at the alpha level with lots of practice, but typically can't actually do it, it's too dangerous.

However, even considering their 'true' ablilities, amongst the Eldar you won't normally see the super-high levels of power that you're talking about. (One psyker wielding enough power to combat a titan, etc.) Those are beyond rare, even creatures that exist for no other purpose than to channel warp energy, like tyranid zoanthropes, cannot normally use that level of power. Alpha+ psykers are the kind of individuals that are behind unexplained colony disappearances, cause sector-wide wars, or get the Grey Knights to dispatch multiple strike cruisers. I would think it would be as common for an Imperial inquisitor to encounter an alpha+ psyker as it would be for a normal imperial citizen to encounter an Eldar. That is to say, not at all. (And inquisitors encounter Eldar all the time.)


The skill and reliability with which the Eldar use warp energy is beyond compare though, and certainly at a higher level than any others, which, as has been pointed out already, contributes a lot to how high they are on the psyker scale. They have established ways of doing things that are better than any others, and part of the reason almost any Eldar can, with enough training, reach alpha levels of mastery is because they just (although it's actually a lot harder than that) have to "follow the manual." There are protections and safeguards that just aren't available to other races, from the rune system, to the knowledge of how exactly all this psychic stuff works, to effective protective gear. This compared to Imperial psykers, who are basically throwing that power around with no training or protection at all.



Remember, the Eldar are a pretty stable race, they've existed in their current form for millions of years. Humans are just starting to develop psychic abilities now yet can still channel the same amounts of power as the Eldar or more without any of the knowledge or skills the Eldar have. They certainly seem on course to surpass the Eldar in terms of psychic power if humanity doesn't die out within the next few hundred thousand years.

For one example of the limitations of Eldar power, consider the duel between Abaddon and Eldrad. Eldrad is widely considered one of the most powerful known Eldar psykers, and yet he had to actually fight Abaddon, like with his fists. (Well, not literally, but fight him hand-to-hand.) If he was at the alpha+ level, even with his protections from the chaos gods, Eldrad could have just flattened Abaddon with his psychic might, or blasted the section of ship Abaddon was in into space. But not only was he unable to even affect Abaddon with psychic powers, he was barely able to protect himself.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 01:52:20 PM by myles »
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Offline Shadows Revenge

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2011, 02:10:16 PM »
Alpha-plus is an insanely high level of psychic powers, just so people don't mistakenly want to up everything for the rule of cool. Alpha-plus is lifting tanks into the air, throwing them around like ragdolls, and snapping titans in half, and making entire companies burst into flames or whatnot.

And what exactly does eldritch storm do again??? :P

My thoughts are that in General the Eldar race as a whole are Iota to Zeta levels in general, but do to the path they are on, they lock it way, or use only a minute part of it (warp spiders navigating in the warp for the brief time they are there)

Now I do feel that they have some Alpha/Alpha + psykers around (eldrad maybe???) but like is being said they dont use that much power because it draws too much attention to themselves. Who says that in a dire straight a farseer couldnt create an eldritch storm of immense power to destory entire platoons of IG??? but he/she better pray to Khaine that Slannesh is looking somewhere else ;)

Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2011, 02:17:48 PM »
At one point, the Eldar would have probably had a high instance of Alpha+ psykers. Back in the Empire days, they could move and destroy stars through psychic might alone, for instance. Now, though, even while the Craftworld Eldar are among the most powerful psykers in the galaxy, they are considerably diminished from their forefathers.

For more specifics, part of how the Craftworld Eldar use their psychic powers is through specially designed and charged Runes. In order to use a power, they focus through the Rune rather than tapping into the Warp its self. The Rune, which i suppose could be argued is semi-sentient, then determines if the Seer's will and strength of focus is sufficient for the power. if not, it glows and gets hot. If the Seer persists, the Rune self destructs to prevent the Seer from using a power that is dangerous to himself.

Its like having a doorman. Its within your power to go through the door, but the doorman gets to decide if your ready or not. Of course, once you've been given permission to go through the door, theirs nothing to stop a raging deamon from mind-raping you.
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Offline Log

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2011, 03:52:05 PM »
No, that is the job of the Ghosthelm.

I dont have my apoc book on me right now, but don't the Eldar get a strategem that involves a massively powerful Eldritch Storm?

Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 04:01:28 PM »
No, that is the job of the Ghosthelm.

If you mean its the jod ob the Ghost Helm to protect you from siad raging Daemon, then you are correct.

If you are, however, stating that it is the Ghosthelm and not the runes that channel the psychic power and protect the Seer, may i direct you to the insert at the bottom of page 51 of the Eldar codex, which includes;

Quote
Runes enable a Seer to draw power from the Warp. By using the runes to focus the raw energies of the Warp, the Seer avoids serious danger. If he draws too much or attemps a task beyond him, the rune glows hot and, if the Seer persists, is destroyed. Only if he attempts to utilise a rune he has not yet fully mastered is a Seer in peril
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Offline Log

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 05:26:10 PM »
You were right with your first assumption. Sorry I wasn't more clear, could have saved you the hunt for the text.

As per my previous comment about the apoc tempest, I have found it. The Eldritch Tempest - "...Groups of Eldar seers can combine their psychic powers to unleash a cataclismic storm of energy on the planets surface"... Rules are Apoc Barrage (6) big strength, low AP.

Combinging rules and fluff is often very dodgy, but this does suggest that mutiple Farseers can channel their power (and defences) together. This could be a combining effect like that of mutiple prism cannons, or one farseer allowed to unleash his true power due to the protection of the other seers.

Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2011, 12:02:14 PM »
That's an intertesting table though i find the part with negative Levels more interesting  ;D. Although this is probably OT i think it's ok to ask here: would a Harlequin Solitaire be Omega to Omega Minus? The CJ List seems to suggest that.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 12:03:37 PM by Katamari Damacy »
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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2011, 02:34:29 PM »
That's an intertesting table though i find the part with negative Levels more interesting  ;D. Although this is probably OT i think it's ok to ask here: would a Harlequin Solitaire be Omega to Omega Minus? The CJ List seems to suggest that.
Doubtful -- they still have souls, and I've not seen anything about them suddenly flipping over to full-blown Untouchable status.

Offline Lachdonin

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2011, 03:23:54 PM »
Solitaires can apparently hide out within an Eldar population indefinately without notice. Only the Great Harlequins of visiting troupes are told a Solitaire is present, and that information probably comes from the big clown himself.

As such, i would'nt even say that a Solitaire is on the negative scale at all, otherwise the Eldar around him would be able to detect him.

Considering they used to be Souless in game, however, it does raise some questions. Its possible that it was simply a gameplay mechanic, but it may also be possible that they can dissconnect themselves from the Warp, effectivly losing their soul in battle. This process may actually have something to do with the battle of wills and witts that happens when the Laughing God tries to keep the Solitaire's soul from Slaanesh.

Purely hypothetical here, but in that vein... It could be that when a Solitaire fights, they sever their soul, and it is then up to the Laughing God to hide it from Slaanesh until the Solitaire is done killing. There would then be 3 options. If the Solitaire is killed, the soul belongs to the Laughing God. Slaanesh could find the soul and consume it before the Solitaire is done, probably killing him in the process. Or, when the deed is done, the Solitaire gets his soul back and goes on his merry way.
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Offline Autarch Kai

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2022, 10:00:15 PM »
Eldar Psykers are on a whole other level to humans. Eldar even while holding back to avoid corruption can overpower any human psyker. I have always considered Warlocks to be on the same level as your average no name Librarian. While Farseers like Eldrad are on god tier levels. Eldrads only peers would be Machadore Magnus and yes even the Emperor. Eldrad feats speak for themselves. He is the only person alive who knows how the final battle with chaos will play out and he has bested some of the most terrifying enemies in the Galaxy such as Abandon. I'd advise reading some Eldar novels The Path of The Seer will be of particular interest to you.

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Re: Eldar on psyker scale
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2022, 05:25:50 AM »
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