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Author Topic: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?  (Read 7782 times)

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Offline Brother Sigorn

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21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« on: May 13, 2007, 01:36:06 PM »
OK,Holy Terra is referred to as Earth enough (especially in the guard codex) to assume it would have the same history as our Earth,so I was wondering if anything has ever come up about our time period?Just curious.

Offline Makaan

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2007, 01:51:10 PM »
Why should they? It happened 38.000 years ago. Nobody cares about the 21st century in the 41st millennium. They probably show more interest in the 10th to 20th millennium, as those were the times of early star colonization and when mankind began to enter the Dark/Golden Age of Technology, and the Age of Strife, till the 30th millennium.

Even more important, nobody on Earth cares about those early times before the 10th millennium because it has nothing to do with the God-Emperor. Most worlds are more interested in their own history, not that of ancient Earth, too.

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2007, 03:12:43 PM »
Technically speaking, then, they wouldn't bother about anything before the Age of Strife, Makaan, if the presence of the Emperor is all that matters. ;)

If you want to see someone that plays around with 'prehistory' then do a search for MvS and prehistory over on Warseer.  They have a thread over there.  Hang on, it might have even been ported over to this side of the world (i.e. forum).

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Offline Brother Sigorn

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2007, 03:25:57 PM »
Well,I see your point due to the fanaticism and devotion everyone has to the emperor,But 38,000 years is just the blink of an eye compared to how old Earth is.I mean dinosaurs just went extinct some 150 million years ago.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2007, 03:29:09 PM »
It is also wildly impossible for them to remember or have records of it. Even the most meticulous chronicles are worn away by times as long as these. I mean, how much of a detailed note do we have of life and civilisation 38k BC. Or even 8k BC. Or even detailed things about 1k BC. That's just nothing compared to the massive 40k into the future. :)

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Offline Makaan

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2007, 03:50:08 PM »
Technically speaking, then, they wouldn't bother about anything before the Age of Strife, Makaan, if the presence of the Emperor is all that matters. ;)
Well, they don't, yes.  ;D

All they want to know about the Dark/Golden Age of Technology is what Superweapons they had back then and how to get them back. For the rest, they are all content to know that the Emperor didn't show up himself to the ignorant masses, and for this, they lived in the Dark Age, where all they had was Technology, but not the Glory and Benevolence of the God-Emperor Immortal sitting on the Golden Throne of Holy Terra.  :)

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2007, 04:06:19 PM »
Actually I think there are some very vague references in some of the Horus Heresy books. The chronicles of Ursh that Loken is given to read are hinted at being from our time or very ancient in the least (from 40k perspective, so they could still be around 10k). They remind me of Beowulf style in writing and other primitive texts, so it is diffcult for me to remember more accurately what time period they could have been written.

Another very vague hint they might have some knowledge from now is the quotes at the beginning of the books. I think in False Gods one of the three quotes is attributed to a rael-life 'rembrancer' from M2.

Thats about as much help as I can be, wait until Irandura turns up, he'll probably help shed some light on the subject.

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Offline myles

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2007, 05:04:38 PM »
I personally can't stand it when people make blatant references to our time period in fiction that is supposedly set many millennia in the future. Do people not understand the concept of an anachronism?

As far as I'm concerned references to 'our' time period and history in pieces set in the 41st millennium are usually a sign of bad egocentric writing. I heard someone talking about some Black Library book once and how a character was quoting some text by this "ancient" philosopher named Keats. I mean, come on, how lame!

If an author is unable to come up with a compelling reason that our time period should be of such import that fourty thousand years later people still have record about it (highly probable) then they should just leave it out. At the very least they should work it in using the metod Google5 describes, where it isn't blatant, and could in theory be from a more 'realistic' time period.

I think Rasmus's "wildly impossible" describes it perfectly.
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Offline Interrogator_Chaplain

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2007, 06:24:40 PM »
I feel obligated just to throw in my opinion. Think of the time gap. We are in the 2nd Millenium of Common Era, they are 39 Millenia ahead of us (Remember it's the 41st Millenium, not the 40th. Actually it's essentially the 42nd since they've been stuck at M41.999 for at least two years.)
How long does it take for even the best preserved pieces of paper to decompose? How much longer would the Dead Sea Scrolls have lasted if they weren't found by that sheep herder way back when? Sure maybe if we start hermetically sealing our documents now, maybe, maybe they might survive for another, ohh, thirty-nine thousand years sure we have computers but how long until all of the history we have now is forgotten and then condensed again and again and again? How long until other huge events in mankinds history, wars, disasters, mergers and etc. eclipse things like the printing press invented in the seventeenth century? Can you name it's inventor without looking it up? I can't. That was just four hundred years ago.
We forget things, it's our nature we can't help it. We forget we move on and live life. Eventually things, big things, huge events in our history willl end up forgotten and lost as a new generation writes their own part of history and cherishes our history until a new generation comes and forgets us and remembers the next generation. It's sad, I know, but really, who cares about huge wars from two thousand years ago? Or how about the invention of the wheel? Now we have our wars to deal with and wheels can be seen everytime we go downtown.
Just imagine the impact the first hover car will make or our first successful manned mission to Mars? They'll be gigantic storys when they happen, but in 39 thousand years they'll be tiny blips in history lessons compared to the Age of Strife, the Great Crusade and the Heresy(not many people will hear of that though).

We write our own history now just as the future will do when their time comes.

Offline Bumbles

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2007, 06:52:59 PM »
There's the odd reference to "our" time, often in the form of legends, for example there's a mention of "sunken cities" in Wolfblade while Ragnar is deep below Holy Terra, he thinks of Atlanytys and Nova Yoruk.

There are the odd "ancient Terra sayings" that occasionally originate from our time (including, if I'm not mistaken "we're going to need a bigger boat")

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2007, 07:07:25 PM »
if i understand correctly, during the heresy all of the info and data about pre 30th century was lost. i bet somewhere in some old forgetten book or data bank on terra is some scrap of info or the inqusion has it and doesnt want other people to know about how people lived without the Emperor as a God.
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2007, 11:44:21 PM »
Quote from: Rasmus
It is also wildly impossible for them to remember or have records of it.
Don't you think that is stretching it quite a bit, Rasmus?  Improbable given our current understanding of archival/data storage techniques, of course, but not "wildly impossible".  (Of course, consider the UK's laser-disc rendition of the Doomsday Book.  That says much!)

Quote from: Rasmus
Even the most meticulous chronicles are worn away by times as long as these. I mean, how much of a detailed note do we have of life and civilisation 38k BC. Or even 8k BC. Or even detailed things about 1k BC.
Well, as long as the advanced civilisations of the ?near future are only using the same kind of recording techniques as in the first millennium BCE.  Perhaps that is just as "wildly impossible" or even improbable?

With that said, Rasmus is right that the flavour of the 40k universe is to write from the perspective of the distant, unknowable past regardless of the pedantism.  (I use similar approaches when comparing the level of relative technology between the Imperium and the current Craftworld Eldar, where you end up with the Eldar being the equivalent of the first world technologies, and the Imperium being somewhere in the realm of the nineteenth century at their most advanced!  Strictly not correct, but it brings across the right general impression...)

Quote from: Makaan
All they want to know about the Dark/Golden Age of Technology is what Superweapons they had back then and how to get them back. For the rest, they are all content to know that the Emperor didn't show up himself to the ignorant masses, and for this, they lived in the Dark Age, where all they had was Technology, but not the Glory and Benevolence of the God-Emperor Immortal sitting on the Golden Throne of Holy Terra.
I've seen this approach before, though most commonly in the most die-hard of wargamers.  Then again the same type of wargamer also said (paraphrasing), "What do I care about the history of a world?  I just need to know where I can blow stuff up on..." ;)

Quote from: g00gle5
Actually I think there are some very vague references in some of the Horus Heresy books. The chronicles of Ursh that Loken is given to read are hinted at being from our time or very ancient in the least (from 40k perspective, so they could still be around 10k).
That's true.  The typical references to "Oseania" (sp.), or "Onyl" colonies, etc.  (Both of the last from Flight of the Eisenstein.)  One has to remember, though, that GW is particularly found of references that might be more correctly termed as 'homages'.

Quote from: myles
I think Rasmus's "wildly impossible" describes it perfectly.
Each to his own.  Beyond the cloying Freudian and Jungian terminology, I find that the premise of the 'monomyth' is particularly appealing.  Let's just face it, the continual references to the medieval period etc. are as equally cloying as any references to historical records.  Whether you want to extrapolate real world recordation technologies or consider the flavoursome approach of A Canticle for Leibowitz, one should never underestimate the perversity of the human mind.

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We write our own history now just as the future will do when their time comes.
And...?  This argues for different emphasis, not necessarily the absence of information.  One can truly take the flavour and Imagery of the 40k universe a bit too far.  Of course, the polar opposite is also true: one can take an optimistic approach to modern technologies - and those that might be developed in the near or distant future - a bit too far. 

If anything, one might question the relevance of this knowledge to Marines more than obscure scholars and philosophers.  Of course, that is rarely questioned because of the inherent nature of Marines, more so given their current representation in the Horus Heresy novels by Black Library.

Quote from: Catachan Devil Sniper
if i understand correctly, during the heresy all of the info and data about pre 30th century was lost. i bet somewhere in some old forgetten book or data bank on terra is some scrap of info or the inqusion has it and doesnt want other people to know about how people lived without the Emperor as a God.
Which is as likely as any of the other approaches.

Of course, if you look at the 40k universe and see how many of the 'major races' have little to no understanding of their distant past and must rely upon myths and legends...?  I think that is a revealing fact.

Strange, though.  If I think about the 40k universe in purely fantasy terms it isn't at all a pig's ear, which it most definitely is from a more sci-fi perspectiv without some horrendously contrived explanations. ;)

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2007, 07:36:01 AM »
Quote
Of course, if you look at the 40k universe and see how many of the 'major races' have little to no understanding of their distant past and must rely upon myths and legends...?  I think that is a revealing fact.

You know Kage, they do have information from this period, and from every other period since but it is not catalogued properly, incredibly hard to locate, and would most likely crumble to dust if you could find it.  Tales abound of immense Terran libraries deep underground that stretch for miles and miles....

I don't find references to the past as cloying as everyone else seems to, but then it has to be done with a little style, rather than the frequent clumsy attempts to describe past times and places.  Fact is, it's all 38,000 years or so into the past, and barely if at all relevent to what is happening in 40k.  What the Emperor was or wasn't doing at this time is probably the only point of interest.

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Offline Felix Faustus

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2007, 04:21:24 PM »

As far as I'm concerned references to 'our' time period and history in pieces set in the 41st millennium are usually a sign of bad egocentric writing. I heard someone talking about some Black Library book once and how a character was quoting some text by this "ancient" philosopher named Keats. I mean, come on, how lame!

If an author is unable to come up with a compelling reason that our time period should be of such import that fourty thousand years later people still have record about it (highly probable) then they should just leave it out. At the very least they should work it in using the metod Google5 describes, where it isn't blatant, and could in theory be from a more 'realistic' time period.

I think Rasmus's "wildly impossible" describes it perfectly.

To be honest, the reference you talk about was in one of the Eisenhorn books (I can't remember which) and was reasonably compelling. It was quite fleeting anyway Eisenhorn simply quotes that "Truth is beauty and beauty truth" and when questioned says that is just a pre-Imperial reference.

I think that little inclusions of modern or ancient quotes or sayings are quite nice and suitable, as tiny glimpses of what mankind was. I've noticed sometimes it can be really over emphasised,but done skillfully like the one above add a little flavour to the universe, all IMO of course.
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2007, 02:35:03 AM »
Quote from: The Reborn
You know Kage, they do have information from this period, and from every other period since but it is not catalogued properly, incredibly hard to locate, and would most likely crumble to dust if you could find it.
Which makes the point of nothing else...

Quote from: The Reborn
Tales abound of immense Terran libraries deep underground that stretch for miles and miles....
Ah!  The flavour! :D

Quote from: The Reborn
I don't find references to the past as cloying as everyone else seems to, but then it has to be done with a little style, rather than the frequent clumsy attempts to describe past times and places.  Fact is, it's all 38,000 years or so into the past, and barely if at all relevent to what is happening in 40k.  What the Emperor was or wasn't doing at this time is probably the only point of interest.
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Offline The Void Dragon

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2007, 06:09:38 PM »
Also, there is a reference in the first Horus Heresy book to a map of Terra, before it was built up, (i.e. much as we see it now) found inside a network of caves on a random planet. It was located the farthest down. The planet was totally deserted. And, it was said, only the Emperor recognized the map for what it was.

Offline Droofus

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2007, 03:11:49 PM »
Lexicanum has some neato information on their timeline.   Remember, the 21st century is technically M3.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Timeline
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Offline Gornon

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2007, 09:49:26 PM »
Also heres some food for thought.  Our radio waves and satellite signals are traveling thoughout the galaxy still.   Now i will admit i do notknow if radio signals weaken over time.  I do not think so, since we use radio waves to look at other galaxies.  So, the people of the 40k universe might very well be able to get a glimpse of the past via our radio waves, and perhaps even visuals too from satellite signals.  Again i do not know much about how these work. 

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Offline Mr.Squid

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2007, 10:00:23 PM »
Some were it mentions that the ork battle wagon's name was based off a sea faring ship  on achent Terra, but i cant seem to find the link...

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: 21st century ever mentioned in 40k history?
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2007, 03:01:30 PM »
Also heres some food for thought.  Our radio waves and satellite signals are traveling thoughout the galaxy still.   Now i will admit i do notknow if radio signals weaken over time.  I do not think so, since we use radio waves to look at other galaxies.
  They do, and especially the puny signals that radios broadcast with. They can travel the globe a few times, but then they are all but dissipated. If you stood a lightyear out you would pick up the occasional broadvast, but most of it would be static.
   The things we are listening for is that kind of static, and anything that is so rhythmic that it cannot be a natural coincidence.

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