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Author Topic: Squats RT-list for 6th Ed  (Read 54220 times)

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2007, 03:43:29 AM »
If you want people to be able to readiy read and comment on it then you are better off making it into a forum post.

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Offline Khodexus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2007, 04:01:50 AM »
Well, I was going to link to it in a forum post, but there's too much to just fit in a forum post, plus all my formatting would get squished together, and it wouldn't be very easy to read if I just copied it and pasted it, that's why I asked about uploading the file somewhere.  It'll be easier on everyone involved that way I would think. 
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Offline TastyPavlova

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #22 on: February 5, 2008, 02:54:15 AM »
I'm very sorry for brinin this up again, as it was on page one.

When I try to download the PDF file, it stops mid download and says done. Is there any special program that I need to dwnload this document?

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #23 on: February 5, 2008, 07:49:57 AM »
Not at all. The file is in the right place, and I can both view it in the browser using hte CutePDF and Acrobat readers, as well as download it. I am guessing the problem is at your end.

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Offline TastyPavlova

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #24 on: February 6, 2008, 04:53:56 AM »
Okay, thanks for clearing this up. I have a really bad internet connection, so it is probably that. Thanks again for clearing it up ;D
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Offline Kronoss

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #25 on: February 6, 2008, 05:59:49 AM »
Thanks rasmus first time i ever get to look on a "squat" codex.

If guess you already seen this site about squats, anyways those who haven't should really check it out..

http://homepage.eircom.net/~thevault/warvault/40k/squats/index.html


Also thanks again Rasmus for the codex, I will make good use of it when I'm about to induct Squats into "Dark Heresy RPG" .. or will try if I can come up with a good story why.

One thing! Can anyone come up with a solution why the "squats" or some of the "squats" survived their "fall" or total extinsion of their race?  Since my some of my rpg friends thinks that they should be obliterated ... forever.. since GW said that tyranids ate em all.. end of story.

Any suggestions?
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #26 on: February 6, 2008, 06:35:31 AM »
Thanks rasmus first time i ever get to look on a "squat" codex.

If guess you already seen this site about squats, anyways those who haven't should really check it out..

http://homepage.eircom.net/~thevault/warvault/40k/squats/index.html
  I never liked that one. it was not adherent to the RT-list, but a sort of incoherent jumble of Fantasy Dwarves and the old squats. Left a bitter aftertaste, as it left what was truly Squat in the dust. Yuk.

Quote
One thing! Can anyone come up with a solution why the "squats" or some of the "squats" survived their "fall" or total extinsion of their race?  Since my some of my rpg friends thinks that they should be obliterated ... forever.. since GW said that tyranids ate em all.. end of story.

Any suggestions?
   And of course that is too simple. Unless every single squat stronghold was in a single system that got in the path of the nids, some would survive. Weakened, on a smaller scale, of course, but the race would not be drive nto extinction. This is also covered in the codex by the way. Furthermore, if you have more questions about such things, take it to Background. This thread is about hte codex as such, don't want it derailing. :)

Edit: Added summary, uploaded version 1.18 to the host.
« Last Edit: March 6, 2008, 04:33:16 AM by Rasmus »

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Offline TastyPavlova

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2008, 05:41:15 AM »
I have been blessed this day! My website connection was amphetamine parrothouse, but now it's goldhouse (as I like to call it). I downloaded the codex, and I got one word to say about it-brilliant!
It's an awesome codex, and that's just glossing over it!
Keep up the good work.
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2008, 09:07:24 AM »
Thank you.
Once I get all my stuff moved (moving house) I am making it a priority to finish painting the last 1k of models so I can phto it all and add them as unit-illustrations.
I have also corrected some small errors in the 1.18, but not uploaded them as they are very minor.

Edit: I am planning on some further playtesting against the new ork-codex next weekend, I will report the pdf once it is updated.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 11:39:03 AM by Rasmus »

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Offline nil

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #29 on: June 2, 2008, 01:08:51 PM »
My thoughts regarding this list:

Squat leadership values are too low.  RT squats had a base Ld of 9.  I'd recommend a base Ld of 8.  As far as I'm concerned, resolution is one of the defining qualities of squats.  Variation in values between grunts and heroes is large for some values, especially S, which may be a relic of RT hero progression.

Ancestral hatred: Bonuses vs specific army lists are always a balance problem.  Preferred enemy works best when its reciprocal-- ie, if orks also gain squats as a preferred enemy.  Furious charge compounds the problem.  While I understand your reasoning re: tyranids as preferred enemy, I don't think it's necessary.  In fact, maybe squats were wiped out precisely because they focused on orks to the exclusion of a looming tyranid menace.

Berserker: I like the idea; the mechanics are a bit cumbersome.

I like that you allow exo-armor on bikes.  Bikes were what RT squats were all about.

Conversion Beamer: Cumbersome rules.  Rumors suggest we'll see a return of the conversion beamer, and rules should be updated to remain consistent.

Mole mortar: Again, somewhat cumbersome rules.  The level of detail is inconsistent with other weapons.  May I suggest always striking rear armor rather than glance on 4?  I imagine that a Land Raider is built with mole mortars in mind, while a genestealer limo might not be.

Stunties: Gretchin runts?  Doesn't seem right for the army.

Force shield: You have landraiders available in your army.  I think that this is overpowered.

Termite: S5/autoglance in 12" radius?  You just drew a 24" circle on the table and hit half of the models.  This is unprecedented, and not reflected by the explanation.  Flying rock does not fly 70 feet with the strength of a heavy bolter from the entrance of a termite.  Better: units with a model within 6" must test for pinning.  Against vehicles, consider ram attack against rear armor.

Living ancestor:  What justification for berserker?  In RT, living ancestors had overcome the natural limitations of squats to become the equivalents of human psykers; in your list, even the weakest is capable of 2 powers a turn.  Is that appropriate?

Kinghand: A potential S6 seems like overkill.


Advisor: Advisor special rule in funny, inconsistent place.  Medic can ignore first failed enemy save?  What does that mean?

Combat squads: Clarify that true grit costs 5 points per squad, not 5 points per model.

Brotherhood support squad: Can a veteran buy a lascannon?

Guild Bike Squad, Guild Heavy Weapon Squad: Significantly undercosted.

Land raider: Fluff has changed since WD112.  Are LRs still appropriate?
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #30 on: June 2, 2008, 04:35:58 PM »
Before we start - I can tell you have only read the list and not playtested it. Therefore you can see how you would find a lot of faults everywhere. I hope you will test it and come up with options rather than just read pieces and pick at details you find startling.

Squat leadership values are too low.  RT squats had a base Ld of 9.  I'd recommend a base Ld of 8.  As far as I'm concerned, resolution is one of the defining qualities of squats.  Variation in values between grunts and heroes is large for some values, especially S, which may be a relic of RT hero progression.
   That is why Brother in Arms applies. They are not immune to everything, they are still basically a militia, which is why they have the Ld they have.

Quote
Ancestral hatred: Bonuses vs specific army lists are always a balance problem.  Preferred enemy works best when its reciprocal-- ie, if orks also gain squats as a preferred enemy.  Furious charge compounds the problem.  While I understand your reasoning re: tyranids as preferred enemy, I don't think it's necessary.  In fact, maybe squats were wiped out precisely because they focused on orks to the exclusion of a looming tyranid menace.
   Playtesting shows this to work well, as Orks and Tyranids are by far the best to wipe out the Squats. It has not posed a problem so far. Have you tested it?

Quote
Berserker: I like the idea; the mechanics are a bit cumbersome.
   Can you see a way to make it less cumbersome?

Quote
Mole mortar: Again, somewhat cumbersome rules.  The level of detail is inconsistent with other weapons.  May I suggest always striking rear armor rather than glance on 4?  I imagine that a Land Raider is built with mole mortars in mind, while a genestealer limo might not be.
   That deviates greatly from the older rules though. Also, this has worked really well in playtesting and has been wildly appreciated by opponents it was tested against.

Quote
Stunties: Gretchin runts?  Doesn't seem right for the army.
   This was in the old RT-set, so it is in this set.

Quote
Force shield: You have landraiders available in your army.  I think that this is overpowered.
   Any chance of a constructive idea rather than just criticism? These were in RT, this is the RT-list. That is why it is here.

Quote
Termite: S5/autoglance in 12" radius?  You just drew a 24" circle on the table and hit half of the models.  This is unprecedented, and not reflected by the explanation.  Flying rock does not fly 70 feet with the strength of a heavy bolter from the entrance of a termite.  Better: units with a model within 6" must test for pinning.  Against vehicles, consider ram attack against rear armor.
   Odd, seems there is a problem in the wording there. Will look into it. It is supposed to be 6", not 12.

Quote
Living ancestor:  What justification for berserker?  In RT, living ancestors had overcome the natural limitations of squats to become the equivalents of human psykers; in your list, even the weakest is capable of 2 powers a turn.  Is that appropriate?
  Psykers in RT blew armies apart. This is pretty much what it could be balanced down to in 4th ed without becoming silly. And the powers have been toned down over and over to allow two uses. In 2nd ed they could uyse 4 powers, all of which seriously more devastating than any of the ones available here.

Quote
Kinghand: A potential S6 seems like overkill.
   And how should be progress in power then?

Quote
Advisor: Advisor special rule in funny, inconsistent place.  Medic can ignore first failed enemy save?  What does that mean?
   No, failed save in enemy turn, not failed enemy save.

Quote
Combat squads: Clarify that true grit costs 5 points per squad, not 5 points per model.
   Does it say per model anywhere?

Quote
Brotherhood support squad: Can a veteran buy a lascannon?
   No, it seems that was lost. Thanks for spotting it.

Quote
Guild Bike Squad, Guild Heavy Weapon Squad: Significantly undercosted.
   And again, what would you suggest?

Quote
Land raider: Fluff has changed since WD112.  Are LRs still appropriate?
   And again, this is a list based on old fluff. Here the idea is that the old fluff applies.

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Offline Black Hawk

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #31 on: June 2, 2008, 07:46:53 PM »
These squats are pretty cool. I wish they sold the models again. I'm thinking on converting some of the dwarves to make them. I think I'll try this and see how they do. Great Codex.

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #32 on: June 2, 2008, 07:59:34 PM »
Before we start - I can tell you have only read the list and not playtested it. Therefore you can see how you would find a lot of faults everywhere. I hope you will test it and come up with options rather than just read pieces and pick at details you find startling.

Woah, I don't mean any offense.  Just thought you would appreciate more people saying what they think about it.

I'm not going to playtest it; I don't have any squats.  I'd love to read about any playtests.

If I sound like I'm saying I know the list inside-out, I apologize.  Obviously, I don't.  I consider what I have to say to be almost inconsequential in comparison to the playtesting you've done.

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   That is why Brother in Arms applies. They are not immune to everything, they are still basically a militia, which is why they have the Ld they have.

I kinda wonder if the Brother in Arms rule is really appropriate instead of just a plain old higher Ld.  With your rule, it means that squats aren't any more courageous when they're on their own, which seems like it'd be more appropriate to space skaven or goblins than to squats.  It also means that they're still vulnerable to everything else Ld based-- pinning, mind war, whatever.  It's not how I see them, and it seems like special rules for special rules' sake.

Quote
   Playtesting shows this to work well, as Orks and Tyranids are by far the best to wipe out the Squats. It has not posed a problem so far. Have you tested it?

Are orks and tyranids really the toughest armies for your squats?  This list looks well-equipped for them.  In my opinion, if a list needs a bonus against some other particular list, then it's because of a hole that can apply to other lists.  "Preferred enemy" is a rule used by GW primarily for fluff purposes, not for balance.  The inclusion of furious charge against orks only is unprecedented-- which is okay if that's what you really want, but I wonder if that furious charge is really that important to your squats, or if you'd rather emphasize other elements of the squats.  The more weird rules you throw out there, the less important each individual difference becomes.

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Can you see a way to make it [berserker] less cumbersome?

Existing USRs that well represent berserkers are Furious Charge and FNP.  If you feel like toning either of these down, it seems like it would make sense for berserkers to always be hit on 3+ in close combat.

Quote
[Re: force shield] Any chance of a constructive idea rather than just criticism? These were in RT, this is the RT-list. That is why it is here.

Sure, there's a million different things you could do to force shield.  (Let's not forget that RT also had steal-a-unit psyker powers, vortex and virus grenades, and 60"/turn powerboards.)  The ability to advance an army under the cover of a double-tough landraider sounds like it would be both tempting and not much fun for either player.  What if the unit could only gain the save in lieu of movement?  That would reinforce the idea of squats as slow but tough.  That's what I'd try first.

Quote
  Psykers in RT blew armies apart. This is pretty much what it could be balanced down to in 4th ed without becoming silly. And the powers have been toned down over and over to allow two uses. In 2nd ed they could use 4 powers, all of which seriously more devastating than any of the ones available here.

But this list isn't balanced against RT psykers-- it's balanced against 4th ed psykers.  If you preserve the power of RT psykers in your list, you lose the fluff of squats as sub-par psykers, who are, at best, capable of matching regular ol' humies.

Quote
[Re:Strength stat]   And how should be progress in power then?

Current armies rarely have a bonus to S for mortal heroes (as opposed to monstrous heroes, or legendary characters).  Squats, who really seem like they ought to be around S3.5, assuming that were possible, could get away with S4 heroes, even if that was inconsistent with other lists.  To range from S3 to S5 without the aid of special equipment or some kind of size increase is another one of those "woah that's weird" things that should be justified by fluff-- and I don't think the fluff justifies it.

Quote
[Re: bikes] And again, what would you suggest?
I would think that the right price for a guild biker would be between 20 and 25 points a model.  I think that the right price for a HW trike should be about 50 points a model.  Of course, you're the one who's done the playtesting, but if I was to build an army from this list as it stands, with the aim to win a game, the very first thing I would take each time would be 3 HW trike units.
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 4th Ed
« Reply #33 on: June 4, 2008, 02:54:06 AM »
I kinda wonder if the Brother in Arms rule is really appropriate instead of just a plain old higher Ld.  With your rule, it means that squats aren't any more courageous when they're on their own, which seems like it'd be more appropriate to space skaven or goblins than to squats.  It also means that they're still vulnerable to everything else Ld based-- pinning, mind war, whatever.  It's not how I see them, and it seems like special rules for special rules' sake.
   The advatnage of having this rule in place instead of a high Ld is that it reflects the situational nature of the squats, rather than just adding a superhuman immunity or near-immunity to psychic powers, barrages, pinning and such. It just lets the squats rally and work better together than apart, which reflects their nature better than making them all Fearless.



Quote
Existing USRs that well represent berserkers are Furious Charge and FNP.  If you feel like toning either of these down, it seems like it would make sense for berserkers to always be hit on 3+ in close combat.
   I will look into it. Thanks.

Quote
Sure, there's a million different things you could do to force shield. 
   Do you know what the shield is supposed to represent from RT/2nd ed? It is supposed to add protection to whatever unit the Ancestor focuses his willpower on. How would you see it represented without becoming too cumbersome?

Quote
Current armies rarely have a bonus to S for mortal heroes (as opposed to monstrous heroes, or legendary characters).  Squats, who really seem like they ought to be around S3.5, assuming that were possible, could get away with S4 heroes, even if that was inconsistent with other lists.  To range from S3 to S5 without the aid of special equipment or some kind of size increase is another one of those "woah that's weird" things that should be justified by fluff-- and I don't think the fluff justifies it.
   I will write something about this.

Quote
I would think that the right price for a guild biker would be between 20 and 25 points a model.  I think that the right price for a HW trike should be about 50 points a model.  Of course, you're the one who's done the playtesting, but if I was to build an army from this list as it stands, with the aim to win a game, the very first thing I would take each time would be 3 HW trike units.
  They are exceedingly fragile, and with the threat they possess they tend to get singled out and blown apart quite quickly. They are the staple of firepower, so I would not say that your decision to take three to start with is bad, but it is still only three heavy weapons, easily singled out and destroyed by handweapons. They are not sentinel walkers, nor tanks, and they can't measure up to them, nor be priced like them.


Edit: After going through the Marine 5th Ed codex I see some changes I can make to streamline this list quite a bit. Expect 1.20 to hit no later than mid-january.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 05:47:54 PM by Rasmus »

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2008, 05:08:24 PM »
Finally! The codex is now updated to 5th edition and rebalanced slightly, taking into account some of the changes made in the rulesystem, armylist-construction and wargear. Thoughts?

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Offline Lucky_Jackal

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #35 on: January 2, 2009, 01:15:24 PM »
In all honest I think it could be better organized.

For Example the weapon effects are under the special rule header, with the special rules. The Weapons and Special rules should be clearly separated.

Also unit specific Special rules should be in the Unit's entry, not in the huge list of special rules.(Or atleast. Have there own header also) It's little things like that, that make it easier to read and easier to find the rules you need.

Also As of right now it's Organized more like a WHFB book, then a WH40k book. (Not that that's a bad thing, as it works for the WHFB format. But I find it's not relay needed for 40k.)

That's my personal option thow, it's still realy cool to see them re listed all the same.
« Last Edit: January 2, 2009, 01:34:17 PM by Lucky_Jackal »

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #36 on: January 2, 2009, 03:00:35 PM »
For Example the weapon effects are under the special rule header, with the special rules. The Weapons and Special rules should be clearly separated.
I was thinking of recutting it like the Marine 5th ed codex, but the differences are minial.

Quote
Also unit specific Special rules should be in the Unit's entry, not in the huge list of special rules.(Or atleast. Have there own header also)
Umm.. every unit's special rule is listed by its entry. What are you reading that I am not? Care to give an example?

Quote
Also As of right now it's Organized more like a WHFB book, then a WH40k book. (Not that that's a bad thing, as it works for the WHFB format. But I find it's not relay needed for 40k.)
It is made out like the 4th ed marine codex, and the 5th ed codex is a lot more lkike the FB books; background, fluff/special rules for units, wargear, armylist and reference.

And on a side note; I actually picked up a brush and painted some squats this week. I now have 3k workth of painted tiny angry guys with bears.


Edit: I shuffled some things around, but I must admit that without a complete rewrite it is hard to clarify any points without specifics.
« Last Edit: January 2, 2009, 04:12:38 PM by Rasmus »

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Offline Lucky_Jackal

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #37 on: January 4, 2009, 02:51:29 PM »
Umm.. every unit's special rule is listed by its entry. What are you reading that I am not? Care to give an example?

It's like pages 3-5 all just bleed into each other. I think unit special rules and weapon special rules should be more separate, so one can flip threw and find the page they need more easily. That way your not scrolling/flipping threw pages to find the Specail Rule you need.

If it's a unit special rule, look for the Unit special rule header. Bam.
If it's a Weapon special rule and stats, look for a header along the lines of "Squat Weapons and technologies".

Just little things like that so it's easyer for someone to use, with out having to memorizing it.

So I guess what I'm saying is. If you look in a 40k codex they have Nice Large Titles and headers, separating new sections and topics. But in the current format there is none, and it seems to just make things bleed into eachother.

Right now another problem I'm having is reading the unit entries, because when one stops another starts with no seperation or breaks.

I'm not saying "Hey! let's Start putting huge gaps everwear!", but some breaks could realy help out when reading it, and trying to find the entries your looking for. It would help people out when playing with this list.

All the same thow, this looking like a amazing list. I look forword to seeing some battle reports with this list, and your squats.
=)

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #38 on: January 4, 2009, 03:18:29 PM »
Ok, I have done some creative cutting and pasting now, hope it is more legible at this point.

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Offline Lucky_Jackal

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Re: Squats RT-list for 5th Ed
« Reply #39 on: January 4, 2009, 10:37:17 PM »
Ok, I have done some creative cutting and pasting now, hope it is more legible at this point.

Oh yes. That helps alot when reading this. =)

Looking Snazy to me.

 


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