Topic: Who was the super power in-between the fall of the Eldar and the Imperium

[4est]

The Eldar fell many years ago.  Now the Imperium rule the galaxy.  I was wondering who ruled in-between the time of the Eldar and the Imperium.

[TDB]

The fall of the Eldar was what removed the warp storms surrounding the planets colonised by humanity and allowed for the creation of the Imperium.  So there was no one ruling in the short period between the Eldar's fall and the Imperium's rise.  Not that anyone has every really ruled the galaxy, at least not in a true 'star wars' way.

[Kritik]

I believe that it was in the state of limbo, no one was dominating the Galaxy/universe. Sort of like after the fall of rome, there was only a dark age.

[Irandrura]

I believe that it was in the state of limbo, no one was dominating the Galaxy/universe. Sort of like after the fall of rome, there was only a dark age.

There was no dark age. The Eldar Fell, which removed the Warp storms surrounding Earth, leading to the start of the Great Crusade, in which the Imperium surged into the breach, dominating the galaxy. The Imperium is the successor of the Eldar Empire in galactic power.

To answer the original question, no one. The Imperium rose immediately after the Fall. There was no dark age, there was no interregnum period.

[Lord Commissar Spiteful]

I assumed the Great Crusade took around 2 to 4 hundred years before the Heresy.

As far as I'm concerned, the immediate withdrawel of the warpstorms and instant dissintergration of the Eldar Empire combined with a century long crusade would have resulted in the formation of several micro empires. Suddenly warp routes would have been open, (psykers and navigators would have noticed this immediately) and any sufficiently civilised society would have begun to put out their feelers (much like the squats). Of course orks would have sudenly been everywhere so I'm sure that in many cases the Emperor would have been the "savior" of the population from the orkses.

I also read that the adeptus machancus had been sending out expeditions well before the warp storms had abated. As such they already had many isolated outposts (most probably the current forgeworlds) that would have acted as aiming points for the crusade (or objectives if you would). I also dare say that they would have formed small trade routes based on short range hops and possibly could have brushed up against other humans where the usual type of scenarios could unfold (massacre/alliance/conquest - both ways).

There would also have been several large colonies of the now seldom seen races such as the Jokearo and perhaps massive infestations of the Hrud. Appart from that my imagination is in a bit of a blank. I'm sure the Jokearo would have had a small empire thing going as their weapons are in high demand, yet they are still reasonably accessable (to the ultra rich/famous/important of course).

So that's my take. Any changes?

[Arcas]

The jokaero did not have any form of empire; not even a civilization that is worth the name - they were genetically engineered to be able to make highly sophisticated devices, but they themselves did not have any real use for it. They made them completely instinctively and then dropped them to the ground like a child that lost interest in a toy and moved on.

[Kage2020]

I assumed the Great Crusade took around 2 to 4 hundred years before the Heresy.

That would seem about right, though some people interpret the new Horus Heresy books as implying a much, much longer Great Crusade.  I'm a believer in aroudn the average three century mark, myself, but there we go.

As far as I'm concerned, the immediate withdrawel of the warpstorms and instant dissintergration of the Eldar Empire combined with a century long crusade would have resulted in the formation of several micro empires.

If they didn't exist before, that is.  I would argue that despite the common imagery of the entire galaxy falling to barbarism many of the "average worlds" (civilised, self-sustaining) would have survived the strife that led to, well, the Age of Strife.  I'm not talking overtly common, just more than the typical "fall to barbarism" image.  It is these cores of civilisation, maintaining communication with other planets, trying to aid others, etc., etc.  (Worlds without a developed sustainable infrastructure fell to barbarism/low technology, while tech-reliant planets may have died or had similar "falls".)

That's just me, though.

Suddenly warp routes would have been open, (psykers and navigators would have noticed this immediately) and any sufficiently civilised society would have begun to put out their feelers (much like the squats).

One problem that we run into here is the implication that it is believed that Navigators were uniformly distributed across the pre-Age of Strife human civilisation and, further, that it was in such a way that they could maintain viable breeding populations.  Thus, to continue the suggestion, they would have been waiting for "warp travel routes" to be open.  I would personally suggest that the suppositions being made here are if not erroneous then dubious.

First, were the Navigators homogenously distributed?  It seems unlikely given how they were created (i.e. a means of maintaining power asymmetry), but were there enough to maintain a viable breeding population that would lead to their persistence on any given world.  If so, was this sufficient to account for losses on any ships that might have tried to use the warp to travel between the worlds? 

Thus it remains a possibility that at least some if not many of the Navigators disappeared during the Age of Strife and, hence, they might not have been waiting for the "warp routes" to open. 

Secondly, and more importantly, is the very idea of "warp routes opening".  Warp travel was possible during the Age of Strife, even if it was more difficult.

I also read that the adeptus machancus had been sending out expeditions well before the warp storms had abated.

One of the main reasons that we know warp travel was possible during the Age of Strife.  The primary difficulty that is mentioned for the various expeditions that the adeptus mechanicus sent out was the fact that they had to go at times when the warp storm around the Sol system abatted.  This does not mean that it translates to periods where warp travel over the entire galaxy was suddenly permitted.

As such they already had many isolated outposts (most probably the current forgeworlds) that would have acted as aiming points for the crusade (or objectives if you would).

With increasing time between the exodus of the expedition and the point at which it was encountered, the increased probability that the resultant society would be divergent from what the adeptus mechanicus, and therefore the culture of the Great Crusade, would have recognised as their own.

I also dare say that they would have formed small trade routes based on short range hops and possibly could have brushed up against other humans where the usual type of scenarios could unfold (massacre/alliance/conquest - both ways).

I would personally argue that calculated warp jumps were common during the Age of Strife, especially the later periods, and remain common to this day.

As to the concept of "empires"?  Numerous ones would have been able to expand, but it would seem that the conditions of the time would have made it difficult to create any form of unified extended "government".  Well, not as if the Imperium is that much better...

Just some thoughts.

Kage

[Lord Commissar Spiteful]

The jokaero did not have any form of empire; not even a civilization that is worth the name - they were genetically engineered to be able to make highly sophisticated devices, but they themselves did not have any real use for it. They made them completely instinctively and then dropped them to the ground like a child that lost interest in a toy and moved on.

Thanks for that, but unfortunately I believe it's a bit irrelevent. Firstly they were merely an example of the races present (IE hrud, orks, slann, squats etc.. I actually believe that GW made obscure references to the imperium killing the other ones). Secondly I think you may underestimate them just a little. It is mentioned somewhere that they are one of the few survivors of the War in the Heavens scenario. For this to occur they had to be rather mobile (or based on more than just one planet) I'll assume that they knew at least a little how to use the stuff they made.

If they didn't exist before, that is.  I would argue that despite the common imagery of the entire galaxy falling to barbarism many of the "average worlds" (civilised, self-sustaining) would have survived the strife that led to, well, the Age of Strife.  I'm not talking overtly common, just more than the typical "fall to barbarism" image.  It is these cores of civilisation, maintaining communication with other planets, trying to aid others, etc., etc.  (Worlds without a developed sustainable infrastructure fell to barbarism/low technology, while tech-reliant planets may have died or had similar "falls".)

I had an idea of this, but didn't think that it was supported by the fluff. I actually base my own unit on something like this. It just seems that it would be something that a lot of people would reject outright so I decided to take a more normalised route.

One problem that we run into here is the implication that it is believed that Navigators were uniformly distributed across the pre-Age of Strife human civilisation and, further, that it was in such a way that they could maintain viable breeding populations.  Thus, to continue the suggestion, they would have been waiting for "warp travel routes" to be open.  I would personally suggest that the suppositions being made here are if not erroneous then dubious.

The fluff surroundong navigators is sketchy at best. It is said that they don't produce a navigator when they mate with a normal human. I feel that it is implied that this ends the line even though it is at odds with our current understanding of genetics. As such I would imagine that they would have developed a elitist approach to mating/society/marriage etc. Hence they in essence would actually be waiting for the warpstorms to clear up (at least locally). The fact that there are navigators would also make jumps safer than normal calculated ones and therefore they would still have a job (so to speak) while they waited the return of their former glory (or something dark and foreboding to fit with the universe at large  ).

Thus it remains a possibility that at least some if not many of the Navigators disappeared during the Age of Strife and, hence, they might not have been waiting for the "warp routes" to open.

I would argue that they were actually rather fruitfull and successful during that time. They would have made warp travel much more managable (much like a skilled captain on a merchant ship in years gone by). Sure many of them would not have returned, but there was such a demand for them in more built up areas that they lived the good life (or its equivalent)

 

Secondly, and more importantly, is the very idea of "warp routes opening".  Warp travel was possible during the Age of Strife, even if it was more difficult.

I was actually working under this assumption. Hence the ramblings above.

This does not mean that it translates to periods where warp travel over the entire galaxy was suddenly permitted.

Hence a high attrition rate. However they did manage to get there in the end (i think this is established somewhere) making my statement reasonable.

With increasing time between the exodus of the expedition and the point at which it was encountered, the increased probability that the resultant society would be divergent from what the adeptus mechanicus, and therefore the culture of the Great Crusade, would have recognised as their own.

Well, if they waited for centuries to ready expeditions, I'm sure they would have accounted for that. While they may not be instantly recognisable to the Imperials, the Admechs would have had a few symbols etc, that allowed them access to each other's research. Hell, I daresay the mere mention of the word Mars, would have been enough.

As to the concept of "empires"?  Numerous ones would have been able to expand, but it would seem that the conditions of the time would have made it difficult to create any form of unified extended "government".  Well, not as if the Imperium is that much better...

Not within imperial space at least. But this would have given other races their own "golden age" ie a time where they were not suppressed by some larger galactic organisation. And of course the orks were everpresent.


Wow, a really long and absolutely besides the point post. The original post was just puttin git out there, but I think I've overanalysed it a bit. Sorry

[Zzarchov]

Note: The warp storms surrounded EARTH not the whole universe.  This is the same as how the Tau homeworld was cut off.

  In the rest of the universe warp travel was by and large the same as in the year 40,000.

[TDB]

I feel that it is implied that this ends the line even though it is at odds with our current understanding of genetics.

Not really.  It is quite possible that it is recessive and does not 'activate' itself in a half-breed (since no-one except navigators have the gene) or only 'activates' incredibly rarely.  Sort of like females who are colour blind (red-green).  Kind of. 

This is made more likely since it is man-made, it could have been created to only become active if both parents are navigators or it could be that the body of anyone other than a pure blood navigator almost always picks it up as foreign and removes it.

[Lord Commissar Spiteful]

Aut insanit homo, aut versus facit - Horace
I'm sorry to say that you have confused the way that the immune system works and also messed up Mendelian genetics quite a bit. The immune system identifies foreign bodies by matching the DNA to it's own. (Okay not stricktly true, but gets the point accross.) As such it uses it's own dna as a basis for determining what is foreign/bad. Even autoimmune disorders don't work the way that you suggested.

Secondly, if you have a reccessive genotype it means that you would still get 50% expresion if a heterozygous individual pairs with a homozygous individual. I'm pretty sure the fluff made it impossible for a navigator to pair with a non-navigator to get this trait. On top of this two heterozygotes have a 25% chance to get this outcome. That means that two seemingly normal people can have a kid, and suddenly it's born with a 3rd eye (the inquisition would love that one  ) Basically what I'm tryin to say is, that although this trait is pretty rare, it is made out to be much worse that it actually is in the fluff. Should it follow normal laws of genetics it would actually have a fairly homogenous distribution across the galaxy (and be fairly abundant considering how valuable these indivuals are).

In fact I'd love to see the fluff written without the "oh, it's so rare!" factor. I'd like to see various levels of things like psykers, pariah genes etc due to the genetic makeup. IE have a couple of hybrids or something.

 

[TDB]

I'm sorry to say that you have confused the way that the immune system works and also messed up Mendelian genetics quite a bit.

First, if you are going to insult me at least have the decency to do it in english.  Now...

Immune system?  I'm talking about how organisms can correct errors during DNA replication, or at the very least the rarety of finding two halfbreeds and then getting a viable navigator out of their union.  I could be wrong as it's been a while since i've studied DNA replication but this is a rough theory of why navigators must interbreed.

Lets assume that when the DNA of navigators was changed, there was also a recessive gene that would alter what DNA polymerase (DNA repair) would find as 'acceptable'.  That is, the modified section of DNA making them a navigator.

So we have x (navigator genes) and X (normal human genes).  Now, in a navigator-navigator union (xx) part of the DNA repair is 'turned off'.  So when DNA is replicated in the child during fission the navigator gene (and alteration of DNA repair) is not cut out and replaced.

Now, in a navigator-human example (Xx), due to x being recessive, DNA replication in the child occurs as normal and the section of DNA containing the navigator gene (and alteration of DNA repair) is cut out.  This means that the section of DNA with the navigator gene in it is not there in anything but the first cell of the organism.  So while the first cell would be Xx, all future cells will be XX.
 
Therefore, when gametes are created by this halfbreed they will all lack the navigator section of DNA present in their first cell and thus cannot pass it on to their children.

Edit: a simpler method would be just to say that in the case of Xx, DNA replication is carried out under the 'instructions' of X.  Thus, gametes created by an Xx individual will be XX, not Xx.  Like my colour blind example but with the second chromosome stopping inheritance rather than stopping colour blindness.

[Lord Commissar Spiteful]

First, if you are going to insult me at least have the decency to do it in english.

I'm sorry. I thought that the quote was funny and rather applicable. Not really intended to offend.

Immune system?  I'm talking about how organisms can correct errors during DNA replication, or at the very least the rarety of finding two halfbreeds and then getting a viable navigator out of their union.  I could be wrong as it's been a while since i've studied DNA replication but this is a rough theory of why navigators must interbreed.

Uhm, it depends on whether you mean cellular DNA replication. During cellular replication there is a fantastic series of checks that make the replication extremely accurate (I can't recall the figure now, but if you really want I can get the exact value for you). However this is merely the replication of a creature's own DNA during cell division. IE when producing more epithelium/muscle etc. It detects damage/changes in the dna by comparing the replicated dna to the original RNA template. As such if the creature is born with a set of dna it will continue to produce this irrespective of what the DNA is. This is why modern genetic therapy uses retroviruses to change the embryo's dna to correct diseases like sickle cell trait (this is actually rather new). This has no implications to the Navigator gene (or genes).

Lets assume that when the DNA of navigators was changed, there was also a recessive gene that would alter what DNA polymerase (DNA repair) would find as 'acceptable'.  That is, the modified section of DNA making them a navigator.

Mind clarifying this for me. DNA polymerase is an enzyme that is responsible for DNA replication and RNA transcription. Not sure what you have it doing in this statement, so please explain.

So we have x (navigator genes) and X (normal human genes).  Now, in a navigator-navigator union (xx) part of the DNA repair is 'turned off'.  So when DNA is replicated in the child during fission the navigator gene (and alteration of DNA repair) is not cut out and replaced.

Now, in a navigator-human example (Xx), due to x being recessive, DNA replication in the child occurs as normal and the section of DNA containing the navigator gene (and alteration of DNA repair) is cut out.  This means that the section of DNA with the navigator gene in it is not there in anything but the first cell of the organism.  So while the first cell would be Xx, all future cells will be XX.

Okay I think I see where you are going. You have a reccessive gene controling the removal(or lack of it in this case) of the "navigator gene". While this is a fantastic theory, (and possibly plausible), it would still come up as regularly as the initial case of a reccessive gene (unless you make it two sets of reccessive genes). While this is nice in theory I think that you have overcomplicated things. If you are really 100% set on a navigator gene, just make it a series of recessive genes to determine the phenotype of Navigator. This way it will only work if all of the functions are reccesive, making it this much harder. (this is much how skin colour works with 9 (i think is the figure) of and several disaeses like alcoholsm and mental illness are thought to be polygenic as well, so there is a precedence).

In retrospect I'll have to withdraw my statement about it not applying to mendelian genetics, but as you can see it has become a lot more complex and personally I think we slightly overannalysed a single line.

I like your example, but I believe that it is a bit overcomplex, and has to be reversed to work. Just say that it is polygenic, and if you want it to be really odd, say that some of the alleles have their loci on the sex-chromosomes (ie it's sex limked).

And finally, I'm sorry if I offended you. I just thought that it was funny really (plus I love quoting Horace).
Amoto quaeramus seria ludo

We're way off topic

[Kage2020]

First off, be nice gentleman.  We may be OffT but such is the way of the background threads.  The only reason that a thread would be locked, or split and locked, is when people stop being nice.  For those in need of inspiration, watch Roadhouse and the definition of "nice" in there!

I had an idea of this, but didn't think that it was supported by the fluff.

The 'fluff' while imaginative often misses the point quite significantly.  It's not the writers' fault, in all honesty, since it seems that the powers-that-be have goals that might not be in keeping with what the authors might want, or what they might be able of creating.

As such I would imagine that they would have developed a elitist approach to mating/society/marriage etc.

That is a given based upon the 'fluff'.

...therefore they [Navigators] would still have a job (so to speak) while they waited the return of their former glory (or something dark and foreboding to fit with the universe at large 

Assuming that they could maintain a breeding population.  This is, of course, an assumption.

I would argue that they were actually rather fruitfull and successful during that time. They would have made warp travel much more managable...

While I agree with the first point, I still feel that the second is assumption.  Further, while I agree that Navigators would have survived in some parts of the galaxy, that such survival was heterogenous, not homogenous.

...there was such a demand for them in more built up areas that they lived the good life (or its equivalent)

Again, a given.  That is not really changing the idea that they were not homogenously distributed.

I was actually working under this assumption. Hence the ramblings above.

I would still argue that calculatd warp jumps were still a significant factor of the period.

However they did manage to get there in the end (i think this is established somewhere) making my statement reasonable.

A given.  I'm just saying that it's not a case of them waiting, cat-like, ready to pounce.

Well, if they waited for centuries to ready expeditions, I'm sure they would have accounted for that.

Another rather large assumption, though not necessarily unreasonable.  Of course, it once again points out that the 'fluff' is inconsistent, since it would argue that every Forge world is the result of an Expeditionary Force sent out during the Age of Strife.

Hell, I daresay the mere mention of the word Mars, would have been enough.

*cough* Holy Altar *cough*

Not within imperial space at least.

It wasn't Imperial space at the time, Spiteful.

And of course the orks were everpresent.

The orks.  Oh god.

In the rest of the universe warp travel was by and large the same as in the year 40,000.

I'm going to disagree with that.  I would argue that warp travel was more difficult, but still possible.  Warp travel in the 40k universe has, in my mind, got slightly more difficult...

...And the rest of it gets into a separate argument.  Ah well.

Kage

[TDB]

As such if the creature is born with a set of dna it will continue to produce this irrespective of what the DNA is. This is why modern genetic therapy uses retroviruses to change the embryo's dna to correct diseases like sickle cell trait (this is actually rather new). This has no implications to the Navigator gene (or genes).

This is where the recessive gene stopping the correction comes in, or perhaps even specifically tagging the navigator gene for removal.  To my knowledge, every time DNA is replicated these checks occur, from the first cell division to the last of an organism.  So i don't see why it is not possible for problems in the DNA present in the parent/s to be corrected in the child. 

True it is unlikely to happen naturally (these problems persist for a reasaon) but i see no reason why, especially if the navigator gene is only kept in the DNA due to a homozygous nature, for it to not be removed in a heterozygous individual.  Further, i see no reason why the recessive gene governing this could not also be removed. 

I think that is possible that, like a female using the second X chromosome in colour blindness that DNA replication could also be governed by a 'backup', it's just that in this case the 'backup' fixes the problem rather than just working around it, turning it off, etc.  If mutations from DNA replication can insert new traits then surely traits can also be removed? and if there is one thing humans are good at it is harnessing mutants. 

Mind clarifying this for me. DNA polymerase is an enzyme that is responsible for DNA replication and RNA transcription. Not sure what you have it doing in this statement, so please explain.

DNA polymerase is one of the methods used to carry out DNA repair.  As it carries out replication it also carries out 'mismatch repair'.  I'm not sure if this would be the type of repairing that would remove the navigator gene, it's just an example of DNA repair i know of. 

To me, if you were to produce a slightly different polymerase via the aforementioned recessive gene you could control whether something was taken out of the DNA or left in.

...it would still come up as regularly as the initial case of a reccessive gene (unless you make it two sets of reccessive genes).

This is what i am getting at.  You wouldn't need two recessive genes though, only one, the one governing what gets removed upon DNA replication.  The actual navigator gene could be dominant, it wouldn't really matter if it gets physically removed anyway.

While this is nice in theory I think that you have overcomplicated things. If you are really 100% set on a navigator gene, just make it a series of recessive genes to determine the phenotype of Navigator.

Well i would argue it isn't overcomplicated considering i (someone who is not overly knowledgable on DNA replication) have produced a theory that could work as GW states.  Even if it is very complicated, that doesn't mean it is wrong. 

Personally i don't care if my theory is right or it is just a recessive gene and thus by 'impossible' they mean 'impossible to maintain navigator numbers'.  I'm just saying that by my knowledge it would be possible to engineer part of DNA to only remain in a homozygous individual and be 'edited out' in a heterozygous individual.  Personally i see this as acting as a safeguard in order for the Navis Nobelite to maintain control of the breeding of Navigators, so the complexity is kind of justified.

Of course there is a simpler option.  That when you mate a navigator and a normal human the offspring is infertile.  That would probably satisfy GW's statement as well.

And finally, I'm sorry if I offended you. I just thought that it was funny really (plus I love quoting Horace).

Apology accepted, i know i offend people unknowingly via jest too so i can't really hold a grudge. 

[Lord Commissar Spiteful]

DNA polymerase is one of the methods used to carry out DNA repair.  As it carries out replication it also carries out 'mismatch repair'.  I'm not sure if this would be the type of repairing that would remove the navigator gene, it's just an example of DNA repair i know of. 

To me, if you were to produce a slightly different polymerase via the aforementioned recessive gene you could control whether something was taken out of the DNA or left in.

DNA repair doesn't quite work like this. It repairs/corrects DNA on what it considers normal. This is in turn dependant on the inheritance from the parents. As such any traits inherited from the parents would be faithfully reproduced. As such the only way that a special case of "removes the navigator gene" would work is when there is another gene specifically (and artificially) encoded into the Navigator that prevents it from being removed in navigators, but whose absence allows it to be determined as foreign DNA by the body. Even this is a bit of pseudoscience, but it's not as if we're working with a hardcore science topic anyways.

Of course there is a simpler option.  That when you mate a navigator and a normal human the offspring is infertile.  That would probably satisfy GW's statement as well.

Now You're Talking. Of course it does mean that they are a distinct species and not really human anymore, but at least it's easier to justify.

Apology accepted, i know i offend people unknowingly via jest too so i can't really hold a grudge.

Great, it's all good then.

First off, be nice gentleman.  We may be OffT but such is the way of the background threads.  The only reason that a thread would be locked, or split and locked, is when people stop being nice.  For those in need of inspiration, watch Roadhouse and the definition of "nice" in there!

Don't worry, we're all adults here. I come to 40k on-line to get away from the aggro of everyday life. As such I'm quick to apologise (although it does make me a bit snappy). Won't happen again (at least for a bit).

Assuming that they could maintain a breeding population.  This is, of course, an assumption.

A reasonable assumption given some of my other points:
1) They are in high demand
2) They are elitist and stick to themselves (no watering down of the gene)
3) They are the most traveled class in the universe, so if a gene should be uniform, it would be theirs
4)  Warp travel/ although dangerous, was not impossible, hence attrition, while high, could be easily countered.

Now these depend on how easily they reproduce, but it's not a stretch to say that they at least kept up with the attrition rates. If (Big if) this is the case, they would have been fairly common across the imperium and while not homogeneously distributed, would at least have been around on most of the larger/more civilised worlds.

Oh and by imperium and imperial space, I refer to the geographical area as opposed to the area bound under imperial rule.

They would have made warp travel much more managable...

I still feel that the second is assumption.  Further, while I agree that Navigators would have survived in some parts of the galaxy, that such survival was heterogenous, not homogenous.

It's known for a fact that they make warp jumps easier etc, but I think your problem is not so much with that point rather than the fact that you think that this would have increased the attrition rather than lessened it (used on the more high risk routes/important missions etc). Please correct me if I'm wrong. Either way, while it is an assumption, I doubt that there would have been too much trouble with it.

On the whole homologous distribution issue, I'd believe that they were generally well distributed, with a few areas restricted (like Terra) from which he attrition rates where phenomenal. Apart from these areas the general warp could perhaps been even more stable than today (they only had 3/4 chaos gods back then, which begs me to ask why, oh why did they have all those problems back when slaanesh was asleep, but now that she's had her morning coffee, she's rather boring).

Another rather large assumption, though not necessarily unreasonable.  Of course, it once again points out that the 'fluff' is inconsistent, since it would argue that every Forge world is the result of an Expeditionary Force sent out during the Age of Strife.

Well the assumption that they would have taken it into account is reasonable. Well, it's actually downright logical, but on the assumption that it would have worked is the big question here. Having the universe open at your door however and being able to suddenly receive the astropathical signals from everywhere would probably be a large incentive to believe them (also I'm sure a lot of these were fighting a battle of logistics and could have done with some outside help.)

The orks.  Oh god.

I was merely referring to any alien race that popped into my head. Come on, how many other races that I didn't mention were really capable of starting their own Little empires?


Essentially the homogenous distribution of navigators, and the presence of the admechs have little to do with the topic or my post in general (the one that had everyone quote-warring).
Essentially all of my points indicated that the area that is now imperial space was made up of hundreds (or indeed thousands) of little "not-empires" (have to love turtledove's books). None of these would have obtained any real universal power (or the imperium would never have started) and they could have been made up of anything, orkses, hrud, jokearo, squat, humans, admech enclaves etc. Also Inside these not-empires there was most likely quite a bit of trade going (since their boundaries would have been mostly defined by the warp storms and other spacial obstacles). I'm willing to bet that they hardly knew of the other races/empires for the same reason.

I actually don't think that any of this is really that extreme or even a new idea. It just seems to be the best bet to what would fill the power vacuum. Or have I missed something?

[TDB]

As such the only way that a special case of "removes the navigator gene" would work is when there is another gene specifically (and artificially) encoded into the Navigator that prevents it from being removed in navigators, but whose absence allows it to be determined as foreign DNA by the body. Even this is a bit of pseudoscience, but it's not as if we're working with a hardcore science topic anyways.

Yep, that's what i was getting at.  It was the only way i could get it to work, at least with my basic knowledge of DNA.  As you said, normally DNA repair would just take it's parent DNA as being 'correct'.  It's a bit complicated compared to what happens nuturally but then it's a human creation so i don't have to factor in 'natural' processes (thankfully). 

Now You're Talking. Of course it does mean that they are a distinct species and not really human anymore, but at least it's easier to justify.

Yeah, i only thought of it after i'd turned my computer off but it's a much simpler answer. 
Sure technically they aren't human but considering how diverse humanity is i don't think most people would think of navigators as a seperate species.

[Kage2020]

Spiteful... I disagree with the points that you raised with regards to the distribution of the Navigators.  Yet it comes down to the utilisation of qualtiative terms, which really is not useful in this type of discussion since it boils down to the fact that you believe that they have the capability to maintain their numbers and I suggest that they might not have done.  At least universally/homogenously (not homology, note! ).

Furthermore, despite your statement that it is "fact", I do not agree that Navigators make warp travel any more or less easier.  They merely allow longer warp jumps with resultant real (matterium) time advantages, which indicates that their primary use would be in service of this function.  Of course, this is something that is generally missed out of the 'fluff' being something that is not necessary or, more appropriately, a tad too complex with what GW try to achieve with their background material/'fluff'.  Seemingly so, anyway.

As to the concept of "not-Emperors", they have indeed been discussed quite extensively with regards to the 40k universe on 'ole Portent.

Kage

[Lord Commissar Spiteful]

Spiteful... I disagree with the points that you raised with regards to the distribution of the Navigators.  Yet it comes down to the utilisation of qualtiative terms, which really is not useful in this type of discussion since it boils down to the fact that you believe that they have the capability to maintain their numbers and I suggest that they might not have done.

Fair enough. To all his own.

At least universally/homogenously (not homology, note! ).

That's actually quite an ironic typo to make considering all the genetics we've been discussing.Guess all the long words just overwhelmed what little IQ I have left.

Furthermore, despite your statement that it is "fact", I do not agree that Navigators make warp travel any more or less easier.  They merely allow longer warp jumps with resultant real (matterium) time advantages, which indicates that their primary use would be in service of this function.

I suppose that this depends on your definition of easier. I believe that flying cross-atlantic is easier than by boat. It has nothing to do with the ammount of effort involved, or energy expended. In this case i didn't mean that it was physically easier to tear through realspace and then ride the currents (although from what I've heard navigators do the currents bit better than anything else), it was more of a matter of making it safer (avoiding hidden dangers, riding the storms etc) or even faster.

Of course, this is something that is generally missed out of the 'fluff' being something that is not necessary or, more appropriately, a tad too complex with what GW try to achieve with their background material/'fluff'.  Seemingly so, anyway.

You (pl) have done a fantastic job of this at ASP. What is the accuracy of that in terms of the fluff?

[Kage2020]

The accuracy of the ASP warp material?  I'm afraid it is mostly the extension of the odd tid-bit of 'fluff' that is out there, coupled with a consistent application of said extensions.  The desire was to keep the 'flavour' to the 40k universe, even if going against the idea that you don't tell people anything about your setting that you don't want them to know.

Seriously, though, the ASP material is in my mind consistent with the feel.  What numbers are mentioned are 'fluff' accurate (i.e. warp transit times).  The most serious point of divergence is a result of Revisionism, i.e. GW's statement that the latest information that they publish is more accurate than anything previous.  This means that the idea of the "calculated warp jump" has supposedly been thrown out of the window, i.e. a Navigator (and an Astropath) is now required to make warp travel even possible.  I, for one, believe this to be a heinous crime to the integrity of the universe and, as such, have chosen to ignore it as rather pathetically tedious.

Kage