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Author Topic: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points  (Read 4208 times)

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Offline greenlectern

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Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« on: March 12, 2016, 03:50:08 PM »
Hi everyone, I’ve been playing 40k on and off for 20 years and so far own two Warhammer 40k armies (Eldar and Genestealer Cult); I’ve recently decided to create my third army in the form of an elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine army. This army will be based mainly around the fluff and models that I like, with competitive considerations coming in at third place.

The idea behind this army is that it’s made up from a Space Marine chapter that has recently gone rogue and started worshipping Tzeentch (so there will be no Rubric Marines in the army). I know there are more powerful unit choices and, in many circumstances, more competitive marks than Tzeentch in the codex, but as far as possible I'd like to build my army around the things I like. One exception to this is that I’ve given Veterans of the Long War to the Chaos Space Marine troops rather than Marks of Tzeentch, as the latter really is beyond useless for them.

So, with that in mind, I would be very grateful for any criticism or suggestions that you guys have to offer! Thanks and here’s the list so far:

HQ
Chaos Sorceror – MoT, Sigil of Corruption, Disc of Tzeentch, Burning Brand of Skalathrax (160)

ELITE
3 Chaos Terminators – MoT, 3 Combi-Meltas, 1 Power Sword, 1 Power Axe, 1 Chainfist (137)
3 Chaos Terminators – MoT, 3 Combi-Flamers, 1 Power Sword, 1 Power Axe, 1 Chainfist (137)
Chaos Decimator – MoT, 2 Storm Lasers (260)

TROOPS
10 CSMs with Bolt Pistols and CCWs – Veterans of the Long War, 2 Flamers (160)
10 CSMs with Boltguns – Veterans of the Long War, 2 Plasma Guns, Champion has Melta Bombs (185)

HEAVY
Land Raider (230)
Land Raider (230)

TOTAL (so far) = 1,499

I’m aware that this army has no flyers or anti-flyer units, but that’s not a big worry for me at the moment considering my local meta.

The army contains heavy armour distraction units in the form of two Land Raiders and a Decimator. The basic plan is that the Decimator will advance with the Land Raiders (transporting the CSM) slowly towards objectives, whilst firing at troublesome targets, while the Sorceror zooms around flaming and attacking enemy infantry with (probably Biomancy) psychic powers. The Terminator squads will both deep strike in and destroy stuff at close range. The Decimator also has the option to deep strike, which I plan to experiment with in the future.

Please let me know what you think. Cheers!
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 05:39:54 AM by greenlectern »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2016, 10:00:21 AM »
Well, if you're set on this plan, I won't dissuade you. A couple things, though:

1) That sorcerer is going to get picked off right quick. He's an easy First Blood/Warlord point and he doesn't have much of anywhere to hide. He either needs an escort (ideally some allied Screamers, but then you need to redesign the whole list) or he needs to ditch the disc and hang out with one of the existing units.

2) Chosen laden with special weapons are a better thing to stick in those Land raiders. Arguably you could cut a Termie squad and maybe squeeze in some Cultists for troop choices (to keep the CAD) and squeeze in some Chosen. Maybe swap the Decimator for a Forgefiend or something.

All that said, the CSM are okay, but really just okay. I certainly wouldn't splurge for Veterans of the Long War unless you have a lot of Marine opponents.

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2016, 09:02:53 PM »
I'm of like mind with Wyddr about the sorcerer. I've had great success having them on a bike or in terminator armour with a like squad. You probably don't need the terminators in the landraiders due to their durability. Chosen, as suddenly wyddr suggested, or even possessed might make a better fit.

I'd probably throw him in a terminator suit, join a larger unit of terminators and have the deep strike or footslog up the field. Then I'd throw some squishier close combat units into those two raiders.

Offline greenlectern

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2016, 09:02:42 AM »
Thank you for your advice!

I'm keen to make an elite army consisting entirely of heavy armour (hence the decimator, terminators and land raiders carrying the compulsory squishy troop choices), and feel that having a unit of cultists out in the open would give a target to all of those long range weapons which can't hurt the land raiders or decimator (before the termies deep strike in).

I suppose I could use the Black Legion supplement and put Chosen troops in the land raiders. Would this be a better idea? What do you think would be the ideal armament for them? The only problem with this is I'll have less bodies with which to hold objectives.

I see your point about my warlord. - he is somewhat of a liability. As I have already bought the model I think I'll give him a go, but play very cautiously and reserve him if I'm not going first. Once I have more points I'll get a terminator sorcerer who will act as my warlord and then he can play more dangerously.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2016, 11:06:09 AM »
The Black Legion supplement would work nicely, I would think.

Generally, I'd load the chosen up on special weapons, dependent upon metagame. If you face a lot of heavy armor, 4 x Meltas. If you face a lot of hordes, 4 x Flamers. 4x Plasma is great against elite infantry.

If you've got the points left over, give the champ some kind of CC weapon (Lightning Claw is nice). Yeah, you won't have many bodies, true, but they'll make an impact when they arrive.

Alternate suggestion: go the middle route. The squad of CSMs with 2x Flamer and CCW/Pistol is actually a pretty reasonable crowd-control squad. Take them and then take Chosen in the other Raider loaded up with lots of plasma. If you have a tendency to face hordes or lots of light infantry, those marines might pay off. I'd *still* prefer them with the Mark of Nurgle or Slaanesh or Khorne, but that kinda violates theme a bit. 

Offline greenlectern

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2016, 08:41:00 AM »
OK, thanks for your help. I may go the middle route then, and have one land raider full of marines with flamers and the other full of Chosen with plasma. Do you think such an army should be effective, given the amount of heavy armour in the army? Or would the army just be better if instead of the land raiders, it was full of MSU CSM squads armed with one plasma gun each, inside rhinos armed with havoc launchers or combi-meltas? I really want to make a CSM army that's different from the norm!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 09:00:51 AM by greenlectern »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2016, 09:10:49 AM »
Ultimately it depends on your local metagame, but generally Chaos Land Raiders are overpriced for what they do. They're either moving and wasting their guns or shooting and wasting their transport capacity with the caveat that, if what they're transporting is nasty enough (Berserkers + Kharn, for instance) they can sometimes make up for their cost. Sometimes.

MSU Chaos Marines in Rhinos is a respectable strategy--more flexible than what you've got here, anyway--but it comes with problems of its own.

I think all the heavy armor is nice (don't know much about Decimators--are they sporting Land Raider armor?), but the problem with this army is less durability and more a lack of offense. You aren't packing much heat, save maybe the Decimator (again, I don't know the stats, so I'm just assuming it shoots a ton). No firepower being thrown downfield gives the enemy time to react and plan without much disruption, and you haven't got the numbers or speed to really counteract that problem.

But it still depends on metagame. This could do okay against some armies and opponents.

Offline Irisado

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2016, 09:20:01 AM »
I think that the army has a very low model count for a 1,500 point list.  I'd be inclined to take more power armoured units and cut back on the Terminators.  I've never been overly impressed with Chaos Terminators whenever I've used them, regardless of the edition.  Maybe they're great in seventh, but based on how little they've changed over the years, I'm dubious.

Going down the route of taking Chosen seems more effective to me, so if you're looking to make a change, I think that this path looks quite attractive.
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Offline dog_of_war

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2016, 10:05:18 AM »
I concur with Irisado and Wyddr about the list being to elite with a low model count at 1500 points. Rhino rush is still an effective list. While not as devastating as in previous editions, it allows that first turn resilience that is sorely needed in today's meta, especially when you pop smoke. Havoc launchers are great crowd control options for their measely point cost.

Landraiders ate brutal, but costly and the pay load needs to justify the cost, as wyddr pointed out. If you're not assaulting out of them and you're cargo isn't squishy, then what's the point.

Wyddr brings up a very good point about your army lacking significant long range threats. Adding some obliterators or havocs add versatility at a very reasonable point cost. They can also fit into your theme of a non-rubric tzeentch army very nicely. The havoc launchers on rhinos add to this as well.

Offline greenlectern

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2016, 08:40:01 AM »
Wyddr - Decimators sport armour values which can be found in the appropriate book, if I remember correctly, and have a host of special roles which allow them to recover from most forms of damage, even Wrecked results. The Storm Lasers I equipped it with fire high strength low AP shots.

Irisado - I hear what you're saying about the Termies, but I'm afraid that for me they're a must have as I just really like the models and the way they play!

OK, you guys have persuaded me to abandon the Land Raiders at last! But I've found a way to keep my army elite and entirely mobile, while hopefully making it more competitive.

By using Havocs in 5 man squads, armed with two Plasma Guns each, they can act like CSMs but with as many Plasma Guns as can fire out the top hatch of a Rhino. These Rhinos will move forward at a steady speed firing their Havoc Launchers and Plasma from the hatch, while my CSMs armed with Melta and Combi-melta race forward in their Combi-melta-armed Rhinos to engage tough targets at close range. All the while my Decimator and Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch lend a hand until my now beefed-up Terminator squads arrive, with the Terminator Sorcerer joined to the larger of the two squads.

Please let me know what you guys think. Thanks!

HQ
Chaos Sorceror – MoT, Terminator Armour, Mastery Level 2 (125)

Chaos Sorceror – MoT, Sigil of Corruption, Disc of Tzeentch, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, Mastery Level 1 (160)

ELITE
5 Chaos Terminators – MoT, 5 Combi-Plasmas, 1 Power Sword, 1 Power Axe, 1 Lightning Claw, 1 Power Fist, 1 Chainfist (229)

3 Chaos Terminators – MoT, 3 Combi-Meltas, 1 Power Sword, 1 Power Axe, 1 Chainfist (137)

Chaos Decimator – MoT, 2 Storm Lasers (260)

TROOPS
5 CSMs with Bolt Pistols and CCWs – 1 Melta, Champion has Combi-melta and Melta Bombs (100)
Rhino – Combi-melta (45)

5 CSMs with Bolt Pistols and CCWs – 1 Melta, Champion has Combi-melta (95)
Rhino – Combi-melta (45)

HEAVY
5 Havocs – Boltguns and 2 Plasma Guns (105)
Rhino – Havoc Launcher (47)

5 Havocs – Boltguns and 2 Plasma Guns (105)
Rhino – Havoc Launcher (47)

TOTAL = 1,500

GW's strict copyright policy means we can't allow the posting of unit and weapon stats, so I've had to edit them out of your post.  Please see forum rule 1 for further details - Iris.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 11:10:24 AM by Irisado »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2016, 09:48:40 AM »
I like this one a lot better. It's more flexible, has more firepower, and puts a few more bodies on the table.

I *still* think that Disc Sorcerer is a bad idea, but you've got to do you.

Additional note: a 3-die psychic phase isn't going to do a whole lot. Pray for Bolt of Tzeentch on those guys.

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2016, 09:50:19 AM »
I much prefer this list. It's mobile and elite, but without too many points sunk into individual units. You'll be surprised how effective those havoc launchers are for their measly point cost. You'll just need to play your sorcerer on the disc very carefully, keeping him out of LOS or he'll be a sitting duck to enemy return fire. The mobility provided by the disc should help, just don't play overly aggressive with him. Keep him as a more harassing unit. Just some food for thought; have you thought about taking a lord instead of the sorcerer on the disc and then making your second sorcerer a level three?

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2016, 11:07:09 AM »
You'll be surprised how effective those havoc launchers are for their measly point cost.

+1 to this. Havoc Launchers are *amazing.* Auto-take for me, every time.

Offline Irisado

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2016, 11:07:44 AM »
This is much better.  The MSU concept can work well for Chaos Marines and I think that the list looks much more substantial now that you've dropped those expensive Land Raiders.

I understand the desire you have to field units you like, so I don't want to keep making suggestions about dropping Terminators.  Do you need to field two units though?  I think that one more squad of Chaos Space Marines in a Rhino would really benefit this list, and the best ways I can see of freeing up the points involve dropping a squad of Terminators or the Chaos Sorcerer on the Disc of Tzeentch.

The Sorcerer is probably the best place to save the points, given how much you like the Terminators, and two squads of Chaos Terminators does give you more options in terms of keeping your opponents on their toes.

You could field the list with no further changes though and it would be a solid enough improvement over the initial version you posted.

I hope that helps.
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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2016, 11:53:47 AM »
Why are you so down on Tzeentchian Terminators? They're pretty good, especially for the cost!

I mean, yeah, there's better stuff in the codex, but they're running with a boosted Invul and plenty of close combat and shooting power. Not sure why you dislike them.

Offline Irisado

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2016, 12:10:05 PM »
It's a personal experience issue.  I've never yet had any of my Chaos Terminators, regardless of marks or anything else achieve anything of note.  They just seem to consume too many points relative to what they manage to achieve.  I thought it was just me, but I haven't seen much in the way of achievement from Chaos Terminators in battle reports either.

Note that I'm not saying that they are bad.  This is why I've indicated the list is solid enough as it is in my comments above.  I would just rather spend the points on more Chaos Space Marines.  This is party a hangover from the days of playing fifth edition and scoring units, but also because I just always found regular Chaos Space Marines to be more reliable.
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Offline greenlectern

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2016, 08:01:32 PM »
I'm pleased you guys like this list so much more! I know there are still ways in which it could be improved, and thanks for the suggestions, but I think I'm going to stick with this overall structure because it includes all the models I like; at least until I play test it and see how it actually performs.

Assuming the army remains essentially the same, what guns would you suggest I arm the 5-man Termie squad with? I mainly face SM players, so Combi-plasma seemed an obvious choice to me, though converting 5 Combi-plasmas will be a slight pain! Any other suggestions?

dog_of_war, I did originally plan to take a Chaos Lord on the Disc, but ultimately I decided this would make him less effective. Yes he would gain a wound, but he would lose the ability to attack enemies at range with psychic powers. Plus he would then need to be upgraded to carry some form of CCW (the Sorcerer, of course, comes stock with a Force Weapon). But if you, or anyone else, has any suggestions on alternative ways of fielding him then I am all ears! By the way, the model I own is an old Rogue Trader one, with a flamer growing out of his arm; hence the Burning Brand of Skalathrax. This is a further constraint upon his choice of armament!

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2016, 09:33:13 PM »
The reason I suggested the lord, is that he would fit well with the CSMs in the rhinos. Having a sorcerer in a rhino would greatly limit his use of psychic powers, but a lord could still fire out of a hatch and add a punch to your unit in close combat. You could have him a decent chaos artefact for the same points.

Offline Irisado

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2016, 05:50:44 AM »
Assuming the army remains essentially the same, what guns would you suggest I arm the 5-man Termie squad with? I mainly face SM players, so Combi-plasma seemed an obvious choice to me, though converting 5 Combi-plasmas will be a slight pain! Any other suggestions?

I've usually faced Space Marines of one kind or another in the past too, so the only other option I'd suggest would be Combi-Meltas.  However, they're more suitable if you're facing a heavily mechanised Marine army, and you've already got enough melta options across your other squads in my opinion.  On that basis, I see no reason to change the Combi-Plasmas.
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Offline greenlectern

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Re: Elite Tzeentch Chaos Space Marine Army – 1,500 points
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2016, 09:00:34 AM »
Irisado - that's what I was afraid of!

dog_of_war - I think I'm going to stick with this army list, at least for now.

Thanks for both of your invaluable input and to Wyddr for your help too. Now I just need to finish buying, building and painting this army! Cheers
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 09:02:51 AM by greenlectern »

 


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