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Offline blinky jungle(REM)

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2009, 03:22:26 AM »
One: Its a neural shredder
Two: Not everyone has read new codex
Three: Perhaps psykers lower leadership, so what. I'm making my callidus appear on their side of the table, flame, assault independent charecter heavy weapon teams farseers whatever
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Offline Talon Undecided

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2009, 03:32:33 AM »
One) It's still a pistol.
Two) I believe you can infer from this entire thread, rumours and general banter what the Psyker Battle Squad can do.
Three) Lower Leadership make their job easier, no?
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Offline D0n_Matr0

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2009, 06:59:03 AM »
Two: Not everyone has read new codex
Three: Perhaps psykers lower leadership, so what. I'm making my callidus appear on their side of the table, flame, assault independent charecter heavy weapon teams farseers whatever

Two: I think everyone who is discussing about units in the new codex (this thread) have read at least the confirmed rumours OR at least _should_ have read.

Three: Im not sure I unerstand what you mean right here. The shredder becomes a monster with psyker squad. Template, auto hit, no cover, 2+ wounding and ap1. The animus speculum comes pretty close, but it gives covers, is only S5 and you have to hit with it.
Although its an easy pick after you start comparing the other abilities. The Culexus basically has couple of useless/situational abilities against enemy psykers and one ability that lowers the ld of your psyker squad to 7. The Callidius has phase sword, poison blades and jump pack wich are all ok abilities although a bit situational as I dont think he should get to cc if you are using him with psykers. Then he has two really good abilities also, "polymorphine" and especially the "word in your ear"-ability as you can get your opponenets marines/firewarriors out of cover turn 1 and start battlecannoning them.

@all:Anyway the psyker battle squad is so powerful alone do you think he even nees the assasin ?  Its really fragile for its cost.
Also if you are taking the assasin what would you do with the inquisitor ? I was thinking inferno pistol and shove him in a chimera with my vets. You could also give him the "divine pronouncement" , but that would just be overkill on top of overkill.

Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2009, 07:54:51 AM »
Problem there is you'd have to take an Inquisitor Lord, who has to have a retinue.  Thus can't roll with the Veterans in their Chimera.

I think a nice combo would be to equip his retinue with Power Fists and Mancatchers (Witch Hunters, obviously) and give the Inquisitor an Eviserator, and then run them behind a wall of Ogyrns.

Overall, the Psyker Squad is going to change the metagame alot.  Its very, very powerful (almost as powerful as Slaanesh Lashes, though it's also a great counter to that making it more effective overall).

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Offline Diteron

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2009, 08:19:48 AM »
If you have an Inquisitor Lord, his retinue has to have 2 mystics.  It's just too good to pass up.

And although the Psyker Squad looks pretty uber offensively...

It still has the survivability of a normal 10 man infantry squad.  And we all know how long 1 of those lasts once the enemy decides to focus on that unit.   ::)

Still, at least we get decide what our opponents will kill first.   ;D
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Offline don_mondo

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2009, 12:26:26 PM »
I tried it out on when facing a mob of nob bikers. Reduced their LD, and tank shocked them with a Chimera holding a platon command squad. Broke them and kept them running back because I was within 6, watched them run off the table, all for the cost of a Chimera.

Hmmmm, slight problem. Aren't Nob Bikers Fearless........... .......?

Anyways, I tried out the Psychic Choir and Callidus in a test game earlier this week. Game was against Eldar. Basically, every turn one of his squads was LD 2. Then on the turn the Callidus arrived, I cast it on his Avatar and hit it with the Neural Shredder. 2+ to wound, Instant Death (no, it doesn't have Eternal Warrior). But then he made his invul save so I just shot him down.
And yes, I had a DH Inq Lord with Mystics parked next to a Leman Russ Executioner. Too bad neither of his Deep Striking units landed nearby.............
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Offline Daedalus_Mk_V

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2009, 01:26:13 PM »
I have a quick question about this: Weaken Resolve is a Shooting power, and used in the shooting phase? Tank Shock moves are done in the Movement phase, so isn't it kind of impossible to use them in the "combination" order? I'm not saying it's not a great power- it definitely is. It's just that I don't think it's quite as nasty as you guys seem to think.
(For the record, it is used in the Shooting phase, and lasts until the end of your turn, so no effect on enemy Psykers, either.)

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2009, 02:00:50 PM »
Quote
Hmmmm, slight problem. Aren't Nob Bikers Fearless........... .......?

Only when at full size and joined by an IC. It's kinda funny, that Nobs tend to run more readily than Boyz, but there you have it. Incidentally the leadership fallback is probably the best way to deal with overpowered enemy assault units.

Offline blinky jungle(REM)

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2009, 02:08:36 PM »

Quote
Anyways, I tried out the Psychic Choir and Callidus in a test game earlier this week. Game was against Eldar. Basically, every turn one of his squads was LD 2. Then on the turn the Callidus arrived, I cast it on his Avatar and hit it with the Neural Shredder. 2+ to wound, Instant Death (no, it doesn't have Eternal Warrior). But then he made his invul save so I just shot him down.

Neural shredder ignores invulnerable saves so it should have killed the avatar
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Offline Daedalus_Mk_V

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2009, 02:17:32 PM »

Quote
Anyways, I tried out the Psychic Choir and Callidus in a test game earlier this week. Game was against Eldar. Basically, every turn one of his squads was LD 2. Then on the turn the Callidus arrived, I cast it on his Avatar and hit it with the Neural Shredder. 2+ to wound, Instant Death (no, it doesn't have Eternal Warrior). But then he made his invul save so I just shot him down.

Neural shredder ignores invulnerable saves so it should have killed the avatar
You're wrong in every way it's possible to be wrong. The NS would not have caused ID, because the Avatar's Base Leadership is unchanged, and the NS does not ignore invulnerable saves.

Offline Bitter Old Man

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2009, 02:42:11 PM »

Hmmmm, slight problem. Aren't Nob Bikers Fearless........... .......?


Nope, they aren't, and anyone to tells you that their bikers are fearless is cheating you They only get to be Fearless if they have 11 or more figures in the unit, and the unit comes with a max of 10 guys. Now you could put a warboss in there, to reach their magic number, but once they are at 10 figures, they are fodder for Tank shock + angry psykers.
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Offline Diteron

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2009, 08:53:58 PM »
The NS would not have caused ID, because the Avatar's Base Leadership is unchanged.

I can see where you're coming from with the Avatar's Ld value being 10(2) under the circumstances, but the problem comes from having no precedence (that I know of) of lowering the T characteristic.

P.26 of the BRB describes the Instant Death rule, and only uses bikes and Chaos Marks (not really sure what they are) as examples.

It does specifically say, "Use the lowest value for working out instant death."

Of course, it's also only talking about improving the characteristic, not lowering it...

I think we're going to need a FAQ on it, imho.
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Offline Gerald_Tremblay

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2009, 09:09:43 PM »
I can see where you're coming from with the Avatar's Ld value being 10(2) under the circumstances, but the problem comes from having no precedence (that I know of) of lowering the T characteristic.
The Neural shredder doesn't lower the T value by any means so their is no instant death. It only uses the LD to determine the to wound roll (LD doesn't replace T).
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Offline Daedalus_Mk_V

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2009, 09:47:14 PM »
I can see where you're coming from with the Avatar's Ld value being 10(2) under the circumstances, but the problem comes from having no precedence (that I know of) of lowering the T characteristic.
The Neural shredder doesn't lower the T value by any means so their is no instant death. It only uses the LD to determine the to wound roll (LD doesn't replace T).

According to the latest WH FAQ, the Neural Shredder uses the enemy's LD exactly as any other weapon would use their T, including causing Insant Death to models with LD4 or lower.
After carefully rereading the ID section, I have to agree with Diteron; there's absolutely nothing in there about lowering the Toughness of a model. For the moment I'm inclined to stick with the base LD being used for ID purposes, but a case can be made either way. Meh, why could they have not kept it clear, like in the 4th edition book (where it said to use unmodified T)...

Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2009, 10:21:00 PM »
Nope, they aren't, and anyone to tells you that their bikers are fearless is cheating you They only get to be Fearless if they have 11 or more figures in the unit, and the unit comes with a max of 10 guys. Now you could put a warboss in there, to reach their magic number, but once they are at 10 figures, they are fodder for Tank shock + angry psykers.

Not so much, no matter what you did to their own LD they can still swap for their squad size... and 9 or 10 is still pretty respectable. And as mentioned the power is used after tank shock is done so thats not a working combo.

I'm inclinded to agree on the instant death callidus.. it doesn't look clear. Thats another one for the FAQ then...
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Offline Bitter Old Man

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2009, 01:59:38 AM »
Not so much, no matter what you did to their own LD they can still swap for their squad size... and 9 or 10 is still pretty respectable. And as mentioned the power is used after tank shock is done so thats not a working combo.

I'm inclinded to agree on the instant death callidus.. it doesn't look clear. Thats another one for the FAQ then...

Oops. Utterly my bad. I misread the power, I for some reason thought it was used during the movement phase. Yes, utterly my bad on that one.

The idea that weaken resolve can be ignored by the mob rule however I question simply because it reduces their leadership, which would come off of whichever they chose to use, either their LD or their unit size... I think. I could be very wrong about that part however. Good one for an early FaQ.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2009, 01:24:25 PM »
At a certain number, the Orks simply default to 'Fearless', at which point their leadership doesn't much matter anymore for falling back purposes. Fearless isn't a degree, it's an absolute--you either are or you are not. The Ld charactersitic has nothing to do with it, so Weaken Resolve should have no effect.

Offline Gerald_Tremblay

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2009, 01:46:50 PM »
But what about a mob with 10 orks. They (nobs) are ld 8 but they can use their number as ld so they count as being ld 10. Do weaken resolve affect the new ld or the old. I believe it affects the one you use, no matter what it is.
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Offline uriël1978

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2009, 02:27:37 PM »
I don't have the new guard codex and I only had a brief look at it in my LGS, so I can't say for sure but still...
I think the orcs can still use their squad size. Weaken Resolve reduces the Ld  of a unit and that's it. It doesn't affect the number of models in the unit.

Just my €0.02
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 02:29:11 PM by uriël1978 »
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Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: Psyker Battle Squad
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2009, 03:51:29 PM »
But what about a mob with 10 orks. They (nobs) are ld 8 but they can use their number as ld so they count as being ld 10. Do weaken resolve affect the new ld or the old. I believe it affects the one you use, no matter what it is.

You'd be Ld10 for a Tank Shock effect, and the reduced Ld for a Neural Shredder attack.  At least, I think that's how it would work.  Mob Value only come into effect for Morale or Pinning checks.

In a similar vein Mind War would be against the target's own Ld value rather then its Mob Value.

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