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Author Topic: Adapting Crusade to use points  (Read 581 times)

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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Adapting Crusade to use points
« on: February 27, 2021, 02:14:32 PM »
When my gaming group gets back together, our LGS is going to be running our regular games as Crusades.  Our biggest hangups are that we collectively think power ratings are stupidly unbalanced, and we don't want to play small games.

So the question is how can we adapt Crusade to fit our play styles.

Points
100PL is roughly the equivalent of 2000pts, making each PL worth roughly 20pts.  I'm thinking that our "league" should have a rule along the lines of "If the rules reference an increase in Power Level / Power Rating, unless there is an associated point value given already, increase the respective point totals by 20pts per Power Level."

Starting Values
Crusades in the rulebook have your starting force at 50PL (1000pts).  I've talked to people who have said that the general rule of thumb when starting a Crusade is that your starting games are at 25PL (500pts).  Should the same be carried over to our system of starting at a higher point value?  If we don't want the point values of our games to change and would rather they stay at the current 2000pts, should the total force point value be at 2000, or at 2500?

Requisition Points
Should the starting Requisition Points be kept the same, or should there be an increase for the initial purchase to accommodate for the higher point values?  If there is an increase, subsequent games would follow the standard guideline of never exceeding 5pts.

Overall, I don't think there are many changes to make to adapt Crusade.  Are there any other points that you guys can think of that might need to be addressed?
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Re: Adapting Crusade to use points
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2021, 07:58:59 AM »
I think if you're worried about using power level, as it's unbalanced, you might have issues with crusade as well. It's definitely not matched play. Especially once you start adding in some of the powerful crusade upgrades and relics.

I think Adapting Power level to points is a fine comparison. But I don't think you should change the starting size of the rosters. The whole point of crusade is you start with a smaller force and expand. Oftentimes, you need to be adding units to your roster in order to spend requisition on them, and if you're already at a strike-force sized game to start, you'll miss out on some of that.

You'll eventually get to strikeforce games, but I think a lot of the value of the Crusade system comes from starting with Combat Patrol games and working your way up.

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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Adapting Crusade to use points
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2021, 08:43:36 PM »
I think if you're worried about using power level, as it's unbalanced, you might have issues with crusade as well. It's definitely not matched play. Especially once you start adding in some of the powerful crusade upgrades and relics.
Unbalanced in the sense that 6 Terminators with Storm Bolters and Power Fists have the same power rating as 10 Terminators with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shields.  The point system is one that has made sense since the inception of the game and is our preferred method of organizing games.

I don't think you should change the starting size of the rosters. The whole point of crusade is you start with a smaller force and expand. Oftentimes, you need to be adding units to your roster in order to spend requisition on them, and if you're already at a strike-force sized game to start, you'll miss out on some of that.

You'll eventually get to strikeforce games, but I think a lot of the value of the Crusade system comes from starting with Combat Patrol games and working your way up.
And you could very well be right.  But as I mentioned, we don't enjoy small scale games.  You've been out to Phoenix for the Thursday night games.  That is the primary focus of where we want to implement this.  I could see maybe cutting the starting points back to 1500 and building up to 2000, but not going down to 500pt games.

In my early years of playing, Phoenix (called Nexus at the time) ran leagues where you could get units and characters stat buffs.  Crusade brings official rules for that to bear and that is where we want to give it a go.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Adapting Crusade to use points
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2021, 11:44:13 PM »
So I've been working with my group to get 9th to a place where it is fun to play so we can kick off a crusade using points and I have been using the same conversion as PL system was just wildly unbalanced in an already unbalanced game. Now by "Fun" I mean no mater what the primary mission type, no matter who they go up against, each player feels like they have a chance of winning the match... This just doesn't exist in 9th unless everyone is playing the same race...

So far, the best I've been able to come up with, is no named characters over 100 points, no stragems, deep striking scatters, and mortal wounds can be saved by invuls and no soup, so single factions. This works fine for space Marines (smurf and BA), Orks, Admech, Necrons at ~1k points that we have been play testing with. Both players still need to understand terrain mechanics and agree on a friendly layout, it is critical this happens.. because the game is just that broken.. tabletop titans has a great video on terrain by the way.

We have also play tested Emperors Children, but they are really in a bad spot since they don't have the wound buff yet, I had a shocking game against them, I just sneezed them off the table, didn't even last 2 turns, terrible game for both of us.

Going below 1k points is possible, but the game really crumbles and just has too many bad match ups, its just not very interesting. 750, is doable, but you are very limited tactically. 1k seems to be the good starting point, but do not use the new min board size, especially for low point games, its too unbalanced, even 4x4 was too small for how quickly some armies can move now.

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Re: Adapting Crusade to use points
« Reply #4 on: March 1, 2021, 08:09:50 AM »
The new board size restrictions really do seem like one of the worst changes in 9th. I get that they were trying to make it more playable, but it gives a flagrant advantage to a handful of factions and the rest are just screwed at lower point levels.

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Re: Adapting Crusade to use points
« Reply #5 on: March 1, 2021, 09:22:56 PM »


Yeah, Your Millage may Vary. I've had good success playing crusade with smaller sizes and PL. You don't need to play 25pl/500pt games, but I do think it's important to start with the 50pl/1000pt roster and then build from there.

But who knows, you might have success playing it with larger games. I do know that Phoenix is a pretty matched play/competitive environment so I know where you're coming from.

The new board size restrictions really do seem like one of the worst changes in 9th. I get that they were trying to make it more playable, but it gives a flagrant advantage to a handful of factions and the rest are just screwed at lower point levels.

I've played maybe 12-20 games of 9th edition of various game sizes. The smaller table size isn't something which has made a noticeable difference in any of my games.


So I've been working with my group to get 9th to a place where it is fun to play so we can kick off a crusade using points and I have been using the same conversion as PL system was just wildly unbalanced in an already unbalanced game. Now by "Fun" I mean no mater what the primary mission type, no matter who they go up against, each player feels like they have a chance of winning the match... This just doesn't exist in 9th unless everyone is playing the same race...

So far, the best I've been able to come up with, is no named characters over 100 points, no stragems, deep striking scatters, and mortal wounds can be saved by invuls and no soup, so single factions. This works fine for space Marines (smurf and BA), Orks, Admech, Necrons at ~1k points that we have been play testing with. Both players still need to understand terrain mechanics and agree on a friendly layout, it is critical this happens.. because the game is just that broken.. tabletop titans has a great video on terrain by the way.

We have also play tested Emperors Children, but they are really in a bad spot since they don't have the wound buff yet, I had a shocking game against them, I just sneezed them off the table, didn't even last 2 turns, terrible game for both of us.

Going below 1k points is possible, but the game really crumbles and just has too many bad match ups, its just not very interesting. 750, is doable, but you are very limited tactically. 1k seems to be the good starting point, but do not use the new min board size, especially for low point games, its too unbalanced, even 4x4 was too small for how quickly some armies can move now.


Just going to say, that we have very different experiences with enjoying 9th edition and crusade. My club as had maybe 30 games of crusade so far, with around 10 players and a variety of armies. We use Power Level and have had a really enjoyable time. Most of the games we played so far, have been 25pl games on the suggested min. board size.
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