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Offline Dangerousdave0042

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New RG formations
« on: November 11, 2015, 08:13:25 PM »
So I have seen with interest the new formations for RG. As a BA player who got really miffed with the "new" [read: rubbish] BA codex I am thinking of creating a new Blood Guard chapter!!

We did play a couple of games with my friend using the new RG formations and I have to say they were surprisingly underwhelming. We did, however, get a couple of rules wrong. Firstly he piled way too many points into the pinion demi company thinking he had to take 10 man squads and buying them transports. This meant he only had enough points for five man VV squads in the Shadowstrike kill team - which let's face is probably the formation everyone's going to take. Secondly we thought the VV only had to DS within one unit of scouts, but it's actually two squads to get no scatter.

Therefore I'm thinking of taking a normal demi company (its minimum is cheaper than the pinion) and giving two drop pods to the tac squads with locator beacons. I get one (maybe two) of the drop pods coming on first turn, which means I probably have one VV squad coming in and assaulting turn 1 (via scouts) and leave the other 2 to come in on the drop pod locator beacons and assault turn 2. The VV squads would be 8 or 9 man squads (for a 1850 point game - and suitably armed for bear)!

I don't want to go into too much detail in case I get told off for stating too many rules for the formations, but the VV can ds and assault and it is possible to bring them in turn 1 as well.

Has anyone else played any games with the new rg formations and how did they go? From our games it seemed shooting was still the way to go even when you can ds and assault turn 1!
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Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: New RG formations
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2015, 10:21:42 AM »
Nobody going to tell you off as long as you're in the copyright limits that we slaver under.  There are some stats you can post, "The pulse rifle has a 30" range, does that mean rapid fire is 12" or 15"?"  6th and 7th eliminated that situation but you get the rub of it.

I have heard good things about the Raven Guard formations, they get to pull some shenanigans with deep striking and assaulting if Scouts are nearby, plus some things that ignore cover (if memory serves).

Wait on Blood Angels, since they're getting a brand new Chaplain and some other goodies soon (I've seen pics of the models, they look pretty good).  I wouldn't doubt that they're getting a DLC package like the other armies did.
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: New RG formations
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2015, 07:38:00 PM »
To be honest, I have BA models that I'm playing as various flavours of Vanilla. I really enjoy Ultramarines. I found I could play a more successful "assault focused" army with UM than I could with BA. For really-reals.

I myself have only heard rumours, but if you're considering putting the BA codex in the bin and switching to... any other... MEQ codex, I'd say go for it. The RG formation could require that you wear an eyepatch over your good eye, stand on one foot, and roll your dice into a shallow bowl of soup, and you'd still have a better time then playing with the BA codex. ;)

The assault from reserves, if within range of Scouts, would only really be helpful if someone was close to your scouts on the turn they dropped... so you'd kind of not want to drop them on turn 1. Chances are good there wouldn't be anyone to assault. So now you run into a situation where you're putting at least a third of your army into reserve, hoping someone moves close enough to your Scouts that you can take advantage of the rules. Deep Striking assault units that can't assault when they drop have not been very successful in 6th / 7th, in my opinion.

Of course, you could take 500 points of Scouts, to spread all around the board, but now you're spending 500 points on Scouts... not a typically game winning option.

Further, many armies are getting buffs to their overwatch. Dark Angels, Tau. Maybe IG when they roll around. Because that needs to be a thing. Grrr. Anyhow, while DS into Assault seems powerful, I don't think anyone has "broken" it at the tournament scene.

Offline Dangerousdave0042

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Re: New RG formations
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2015, 11:33:38 PM »
It shouldn't be, but I agree that I don't actually think that the ability to deep strike without scatter on turn 1 and assault is not broken. It's a measure of just how far the game is biased towards shooting armies.

However, the scouts can infiltrate 18" away, then 6" scout move so they are 12" away from the enemy line. Assuming you have two scouts 12" apart and you need to come in 9" away from both of them (isoceles triangle) then your middle VV will be 6" away from the enemy. As you form a ring around this one the next ring will be 5" away (on a 1" base roughly). If you have 8 or more VV then you need to start as second ring and presumably putting this fella at the front means your charge range will be 4". VV can reroll one or either dice when charging (without using JP anyway if difficult terrain) so you aren't going to fail a re-rollable 4" charge (though technically possible I admit).

Of course the opposition is well aware of this shenanigan so while they can't stop this, they can at least out a disposable screen at the front. This is where the drop pods with locators come in as I can then drop pod assault one of them anywhere and the second might come in turn 1 as well. Of course they can move away from it, but at least then their reacting to what I'm doing, and I still have the option of an "who dares wins" DS hoping for a hit.
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: New RG formations
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2015, 12:07:25 AM »
That presumes first turn. Scouts within 18" of a quick moving assault squad are not going to be there to act as the "beacon".

Presumably, you wipe your target when you charge them with VV... and now you get pasted by the shooting your opponent has. With First turn, you've got First Blood and then a dead VV squad... and probably very quickly have a pair of dead Scouts. You could ballpark 340 points for those pretty quickly. It's not the end of the world, but you'd need to hit something pretty high value to make it worth it.

And you need first turn. :)

Offline Dangerousdave0042

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Re: New RG formations
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2015, 12:54:39 AM »
True. First turn is important and the formation allows you to reroll your die for that. Also being RG you get shrouded first turn, which with cammo cloaks and in a ruin (hopefully) gives you a 2+ cover. If not it's 3+ with going to ground, so you could withstand a reasonable amount of shooting that is not ic. Of course against Tau this doesn't work, but then against Tau / Necron / Eldar you don't stand a chance unless you are one of those three as well.

I'm with you (I think) in that the mathhammer says it should be a winner, but in actuality it probably isn't as powerful as it seems it should be.

Anyway that was why I was after experience from anyone else who had actually used it in anger.
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: New RG formations
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2015, 07:43:50 PM »
In all fairness, I haven't tried it.

But I did look very closely at the Blood Angels formation that allows assault from DS, and the Skyhammer formation. In the case of BA, I found that the investments ate up 1200 points before you could buy your Punchy units! Even Skyhammer costs a good 900 points if you want to give them teeth, and then you have to buy the rest of your army. At that point, you're paying almost 23 points per model, for MEQ saves. And you aren't getting amazing assault units, just big Assault Squads.

So the RG detachment might be better value than those, I've just been going off of rumour and slander. Just check out how many points you need to invest in the "gimmick", to see if you could then afford the rest of the pieces to a working army. I usually play 1500 to 1850 points, so the BA detachment only worked if we were playing a "big" game, and even then I had sooooo many points tied up in mediocrity, that it wasn't worth it.

It could be powerful, but the other detachments I've looked at had expensive restrictions that knee-capped them.

 


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