Topic: 2k necron tournament/TAC list

[Antaeus]

You don't think that Wraiths can take on TEQ (so long as they slightly outnumber them)? They've done wonders for me in the past against daemons, monstrous creatures and terminators! They have a -X-++ save, -X- attacks on the charge and attack at maximum initiative with the coils.. as long as they outnumber terminators they've always done fine

You don't think that's good anti-TEQ? Even if they don't kill everything, they can still hold them down for 2 to 3 turns, easily (again, especially given their numbers)

Here's something I'd imagine, coming from your suggestion -- remove the following: the bastion, about 10 scarabs, 6 Wraiths and the "Veiltek". Instead replace that stuff with two aegis lines with quad guns (or something else-anti-flyer), 2 A-barges and 15 more warriors so that I have 4 squads of 10 warriors.

It might not be precisely what you had in mind, but it's a general idea of what I'd imagine your thoughts are leading to (feel free to tell me exactly what you're thinking of removing/adding)

The issue I see here is that 6 Wraiths will have trouble getting across the table against shooty armies like Tau and IG (I've tried it). With two units of 6, I've never failed to eat the entire gun line. Then I'm lacking anti AV14 power -- the scarabs were in such large number in order to tie up troops and eat tanks. Do you have any ideas for that? I don't see how this list can effectively deal with AV 14 without so many scarabs.. (that being said you didn't say precisely what you'd remove/add)

A final note about the 20 scarabs: usually 10 don't make it across the table to eat as much armour as would be optimal

To be honest I've evolved this list over the summer, and done so facing all kinds of opponents and lists. I know that doesn't sound like much from someone who went full-retard when counting to 30 -- but this is by far the most constructive discussion I've had on Necron tactics. Most people I meet just seem to rip lists off the web and wonder howcome it doesn't work, or if it does they don't do much more homework than that.

Usually people look at my list and they're like "nahh, I wouldn't do [x,y,z]" and I'm like "why?" and they give their answer. I give mine and they're like "Oh, ok.. wow you have good arguments, I guess it's a solid list then" (yep even on the forums). So thanks for your patience and counter-arguments

[mod]Again, please be careful posting exact unit stats, it's copyright infringement. ~Senso[/mod]

[Foxfire]

Okay.  Well, I won't comment on GBT's suggestions for list changes: I don't disagree, but he's probably better equipped to get into that than I am (and your comments were pretty clearly directed at him in that regard).  What I will say is that your definition of 'all kinds of enemies' doesn't seem to fit with mine.  First of all, you came into this thread without understanding how Cryptek rules work, and apparently no one ever corrected you, so you aren't playing people who have a strong understanding of the codex they're up against.  Next, you describe Tau as your most frequent opponent, and that the Tau are played as a gunline, which...Tau players can feel free to correct me, is far and away not the most effective way to play Tau.

This list has gone well out of its way to spam fast melee units, and gone in pretty lackluster for everything else.  This makes some sense for a player smashing gunline face all the time, but it's my feeling that you may need to be more open to the idea that your experiences don't adequately reflect a wide array of different players, especially of higher skill level.

The idea of using small numbers of troops to snag a bunch of objectives at the end of the game isn't a bad one necessarily: I know that a lot of people take it to a further extreme by loading up lots of cheap troop units into a fleet of Nightscythes and using whichever ones are still in the air to start scoring points starting on turn 5.  Between the Veil and two Nightscythes I can see why this worked for you, especially if you're playing old-fashioned enemies or newer players without much anti-flyer unit choices/that will helpfully focus on the Bastion like you want them to.

But whether you decide to take anything you hear on the Necron forum seriously or not, I don't think it's productive to construct a straw man.  It doesn't matter if people at other forums were wowed by your arguments and said you had a solid list.  What matters in this thread is the advice you asked for and are receiving by the members here.

That said, I do wish you luck in your upcoming tournament.  Have you given any thought to giving us a battle report when it's all said and done?

[Antaeus]

I think you've made a fair assessment of my situation -- my army list is a reflection of the lists and players I've been facing.

I won't be going to any more tournaments for a few months but I'd be open to reshaping my list if anyone wants to lay down specific ways that they'd change it and giving reports on that (whenever I can afford the time to play)

Oh yeah -- and I wasn't constructing a straw men -- I was giving thanks for being critical :p my ego isn't invested in my list

[Spectral Arbor]

To be clearer in regards to my comments on TEQ, I'm talking army-wide Deathwing, Draigowing, [Spacewolf]wing, and such. Armies with more than one or two 5 man Termie squads.

[Foxfire]

Out of interest, what is the usual method for beefing up anti-TEQ?  My own list has a lot less to go on than twelve Wraiths, and Lychguard--while I love their fluff--are very expensive.  My understanding, rooted mostly in 3rd-ed codex Necrons I'll admit, has always been that the Terminator save is one of the Achilles Heels of our army, and while we do have access to more low-ap weaponry than we did before, we still can't load up on plasma the way a lot of other armies do.

Short of going flyer-fleet and preventing such enemies from having anything to get to grips with (because that...really runs into some money), do we have other options?

[Spectral Arbor]

Well, a Doomsday Cannon on an Ark would go a long way.

Being able to output a higher number of shots would help. The bigger Warrior squads can help with that. TEQ fail saves eventually, and typically have low shooting damage output / cost. You're likely to win a war of attrition at range.

Triarch Stalkers have weapons that work well on their own, and can boost the effectiveness of massed Gauss weaponry somewhat.

Warscythes here, there, and everywhere are a cheap upgrade that have a  unique property. They have TEQ penetrating AP, and strike before Initiative 1. Other than Dreadnaughts and Monstrous Creatures, that's unique in the 40k universe, to the best of my knowledge. Not so great against Storm Shields and the like, but better than a shot in the eye. While I wouldn't actively suggest trying to punch out TEQ's, they'll be actively trying to get to combat with you, in all likelihood, since they typically have poor ranged damage for their points. If the Termies do get to grips, you hopefully have a bunch of chump wounds that will stand back up after being knocked apart, and the Lord with Scythe [and Orb!] can put out the hurt and hopefully kill a couple TEQ per turn, before they have a chance to attack.


I agree that TEQ armies seem like a tough nut for Necrons to crack. Lacking a "Plasmagun" type weapon to sprinkle about is tricky.


Just as a reminder, I don't actually play Necrons. I've thought about them a bunch, and I've played 40k for a long time. My initial venture into this thread was to point out the invalid force structure. My continuing presence is that of an outsider looking in, and what I would think this list would have trouble with, considering how I would imagine playing against it.

[Foxfire]

Hm.  Volume of fire is usually my preferred method, but that's possible because I seldom face more than ten Terminators.  As for the Doomsday Ark, I was salivating at the stats on the thing, though I must admit that a stationary mega-blaster that will always be at the top of my opponents' target priority doesn't sound very survivable.

Now Warscythes is a good point, and one that I had forgotten.  For some reason I thought I remembered reading that they got downgraded to "Unwieldy" or whatever the term is in the 6th ed. book (when all the power weapons needed to be given new rules, notably AP), making them Initiative 1, but I will gladly be corrected on  that point.  Given that they generally come on a model with Mindshackle Scarabs, you have a guy that makes challenges a horrible idea for your opponent while promising some very nasty low ap melee attacks before the powerfists come to bear.  Granted though, I'm not sure that would save you if the Lord were accompanying any unit other than Wraiths, as the rending and invulnerable save will be necessary to keep up with the beating the Termies will dole out once their initiative phase comes along, and it's never fun to lose your Warlord to a failed morale check and ensuing sweep.

As for playing Necrons, doing so is not a requirement to share what you know on the Necron board good sir   The board seems pretty inactive these days, so anyone who's fairly comfortable with the rules (even if only out of peripheral interest) is a welcome addition.  Antaeus says he's grateful for the feedback, and I found your insights useful, so I don't hear anyone complaining.

[Antaeus]

This

Hm.  Volume of fire is usually my preferred method, but that's possible because I seldom face more than ten Terminators.  As for the Doomsday Ark, I was salivating at the stats on the thing, though I must admit that a stationary mega-blaster that will always be at the top of my opponents' target priority doesn't sound very survivable.

I'm not a big fan of the Warscythe though, unless as mentioned, it's on a Destroyer Lord with Mindshackle Scarabs accompanying Wraiths (oh yes, I forgot about the fact that they have Rending!). Preferred Enemy: Everything on top of it? Very cool -- but expensive.

Why am I not a fan of the Warscythe in other situations? I simply wouldn't commit a squad of [whatever unit] to attacking Terminators just because one of my leaders has a Warscythe. Of course Necrons do have other close combat options, other than Wraiths, but in my experience and research nothing compares to Wraiths with Coils. Feel free to argue against that point :p

Anyways the main point that I really wanted to bring to the table was this: instead of 300 points of Scarabs, what about 5 Destroyers with Heavy Gauss Cannons (3 in one squad, 2 in another). Take a look at the stats of the Heavy Gauss Cannon -- however it does bother me that they have only one wound, but we can't have it all in life. Besides, 5 models means 5 wounds and 5 shots that can take out TEQ and AV14 -- which is better than the Doomsday Ark

Thoughts?

[Spectral Arbor]

In defence of the Lord / Overlord with Scythe, he can't be directly targeted in close combat, short of a challenge. If you've already got the Lord for Res Orb purposes, the price of a Scythe is pretty cheap insurance. With his high Toughness and good save, he's likely to survive a challange from a Marine Sarge with a Power Sword or Maul. He'll attack before a Power Axe, and will likely kill said Sarge before the Axe / Fist can swing.

Regular duders throw wounds on the Warriors... they chump for the Lord, like they're designed to.

The Scythe is a defensive measure. It discourages an assault, and give you an "out" if it happens when you don't want it to.

[Foxfire]

I'm not sure he meant that warscythes should be taken alone against Terminators, so much as having a Lord so-equipped gives a unit an edge if it was already decently outfitted.  As for Wraiths with Coils, I have heard that they are pretty much the creme de la creme of Necron assault units, though I haven't had much luck with mine yet (I only have three, which will be a problem I suspect).

As for taking it apart from a Destroyer Lord, I understand why people do it.  If you aren't planning to have an aggressive Destroyer Lord or any special characters, an Overlord is a necessity, and it isn't hard for a list not to have any good place to put him.  Bare-bones, he isn't much of a threat to anyone, a standard Necron with a decent short-range weapon and higher than average stats.  Give him the warscythe and at least he's a CC deterrent: melee specialists might still wade through your unit and win just based on how many non-Lord wounds they're scoring, but without him even non-CC specialists will be good enough to push your scoring unit off of an objective, and even moderate levels of fire will be enough to kill them if you're taking smaller squad sizes.

And Destroyers compared to a Doomsday Ark...I don't think I would agree that they're better.  The Destroyers basically have lascannons, the Ark has a cross between an Earthshaker and a D-cannon.  It's true that it takes fewer bad rolls to waste the Ark's shot, but on average you can net more than 3 hits, which is the average for 5 Destroyers.  Not to mention that return fire is less of a concern for the Ark, as only anti-tank weapons matter, it can't be diminished/is either destroyed or not destroyed, and it's possible to deny some return fire given the range of the Doomsday Cannon.

Edit-->I took too long to post, but it seems that GBT and I agree on the warscythe issue.

[Spectral Arbor]

Well, what I'm trying to get at is that by the time you buy a 10 man Warrior squad, and add a Lord with Res Orb, adding a scythe on top is a relative point increase of about 5%. Which is my awkward way of talking about point cost for the Scythe.

So assuming that we run into a 5 man, standard Termie unit, that unit is probably comprised of a Sarge with Power Sword, and 4 guys with Power Fists.

While I don't normally go for a reliance on averages, I'll take a look at the "probable" outcomes of Termies charging the squad outlined above. For those that are curious, the points values for the two units is nearly equal.

So we assume that somehow, neither unit has taken casualties before the Termies reach combat.

The Sarge issues a challenge, to try to take out the Lord before the Lord can start whomping Marines. So with his bonus attack, the Sarge has a 42% chance to inflict at least one wound. Usually, the Lord survives to attack. The Lord's attacks have a 48% chance to inflict a wound. With these numbers in mind, we have 3 possible outcomes. Sarge wins, Lord wins, Both live. However, thanks to Ever Living and a Res Orb, the odds of a Sarge wins get cut in half... because the Lord can stand back up. So on the turn that Termies charge, the Sarge wins 21%, the Lord wins 28%, and they dance around 51% of the time. 79% of the time, you win or move onto another round, assuming you pass your break test...

Moving onto the next turn, the Sarge's offence goes down notably. He only has a 31% chance to take the Lord out before he can attack. The Lord still has a 48% chance to down the Sarge, and the new outcomes become Sarge wins 15%, Lord wins 33%, and Both Live 52%.

In all instances, the Lord is more likely to kill the Sarge than the Sarge is to eliminate the Lord, thanks to the Res Orb. From there, he's free to attack the normal Termies...

The 10 Warriors have a 35% chance to take out one or more Termies before they attack, so we'll assume they fail. 4 Termies will typically crush 5 Warriors on the charge, and then 2 stand back up. In all likelihood, you've lost combat by 4, anyhow, so your odds of passing the initial break test are mediocre at best.


But if you get through that, the Termies are down to crushing 3 guys a turn, and we'll say two stand back up, and maybe the Lord offs the Sarge this round. A break test at -2 isn't so bad, so we likely continue.


We'll guess that the 6 remaining Warriors get lucky and down a Termie... they've thrown enough crap at the wall, something stuck. If the Lord gets lucky, he downs a guy, but we'll assume he fails. 3 Termies squeeze 3 guys, 1 stands up... combat at -2, Necrons stick.

4 Warriors whiff... Lord gets one Termie. 2 Termies off 2 Warriors, one stands up.

3 Warriors whiff, Lord whiffs, 2 Termies kill a couple more guys, and you probably fail because you've taken break tests on 5 consecutive assault phases... and get wiped.


That's the way I'd see a reasonably typical combat going, anyhow, presuming you pass the morale check on the first round... so you've got to be a little lucky there. With only 2 guys left, they should be fairly easy pickings for something else to wipe them out. I've also assumed that full strength squads run into each other. The Termies start to lose damage for each wound lost. The Necrons only lose damage output if the Lord bites it. If you can whittle the termies down by even 2 models before Assault starts, the 10 man Warrior squad has a good chance of winning, since they're unlikely to take a -4 break test.

I've also assumed that no Wraiths are available for support.

For the points, if you already have an Over / Lord, I think a Scythe is cheap insurance for when things go bad.

[Foxfire]

I'm not sure where you got some of those numbers?  It's possible I simply misunderstand who's carrying what.

Sticking with your premise, five Termies make it to push a cheap (but not minimal) unit of Warriors off their objective, and you've left the Lord with his scythe there to stall or even prevent this.  I personally haven't been bothering with the Resurrection Orb myself, so my numbers would be different, but we'll stick with the idea that the Lord has an orb.

Challenge issued and accepted:
A bit unclear on how many attacks the sergeant has, here I'm going with him having one more than a normal terminator.  I couldn't get 42% wound rate whether he did or not, though.
x attacks, half of them hit, five sixths of them wound, we're looking at an average of 1.67 wounds dealt.
For the Lord...
Half of his attacks hit, 5/6 of them wound, the terminator's invul save kicks in...83% chance of the Sergeant biting the dust against the scythe.

So chances are good that the Lord wins the challenge, but chances are also good that the Sergeant made a good account of himself and made the poor undead leader pay for his hubris.  Unless challenge results don't count towards the combat result total (not sure, again, this edition I'm not the guy in the group who owns the book), there's a good chance that the Lord wins but gave away a point toward combat total.

Ten Warriors have a 42% chance to kill a Terminator, but the Terminators are stomping face regardless, averaging at just under 4, or 5 on the nose.  Either way, the Marines win the combat by a landslide and Reanimation Protocols don't come into play until after the morale check, so chances are the Necrons are being squashed then and there with a -4 to their ld in an optimistic case, but as much as -6 in a pessimistic one.

Granted, if your Necrons do survive that initial charge, the Necron Lord has a good shot at killing another Terminator next turn, and the leadership rolls won't be nearly as intimidating from then on.  No matter how you slice it, that Warscythe made up its cost 4 to 8 times in that one encounter and was more than worth it.

Even so, I would be taking it less for the terminators and more for the rival troops unit that's rushing in to fight my men off the objective.  The numbers look much more favorable if it's a tac squad trying to steal your objective.  An Overlord with a warscythe is probably not enough to save you from a dedicated assault team: he can win all the challenges he wants, your Warriors and Immortals can still lose the combat by a landslide and drag him down with insane morale modifiers.  But he can be more than enough to turn a fight between two non-dedicated CC units around.

[Spectral Arbor]

The wounding rate is slightly complicated, but if you check the General Tactics Project Board, I've laid it out there. My numbers factor in the odds of the Sarge failing to kill the Lord before the Lord can attack, and then the odds of the Lord successfully slaying the Sarge... or the Lord pulling himself back together again.

I guess what we can agree upon, is that there's a good chance you'll take out a Termie or two before going down, which is something the list has trouble doing. Certainly better than throwing another Warrior into the mix.

I see tactical uses outside of Termie slaying for a Warscythe... I think it's an incredible piece of kit for anyone that can take one.