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Author Topic: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed  (Read 6104 times)

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Offline 808giza

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Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« on: August 22, 2008, 05:40:46 AM »
I have yet to play a game in 5th ed with my Necrons but I was wondering what people were finding better.  I tend to run destroyer heavy lists due to there mobility but I imagine that its not as important as in 4th ed. 

Really at 1500pts you need to go one direction right?

Do you find heavy destroyers worth it?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 06:46:09 AM by 808giza »

Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2008, 06:23:33 AM »
I've always found that going in one direction is the better way to go, what with WBB and all.

If you're playing against an opponent that's going to be using tanks with AV12+ you'll be wanting some Heavy Destroyers or perhaps even the Nightbringer.  He's got a lascannon equivalent and if he's walking across the field your opponent had better be damn sure shooting at him, taking the heat off the rest of your army.

Offline moc065

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2008, 07:58:58 AM »
I've always found that going in one direction is the better way to go, what with WBB and all.

If you're playing against an opponent that's going to be using tanks with AV12+ you'll be wanting some Heavy Destroyers or perhaps even the Nightbringer.  He's got a lascannon equivalent and if he's walking across the field your opponent had better be damn sure shooting at him, taking the heat off the rest of your army.

QFT.. well said there Monster Rain, at 1500pts I am running Destroyers and H-Destoryers, or Immortals and H-Destroyers..... The anti-tank is required... Something to think about to though is that Tomb Spyders can be a little bit reliable vs tanks as well, or Wraiths, or Parihas...  if you configure you army to meet thier specific needs... so there are several options besides H-Destroyers.

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Offline darthava

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2008, 10:35:10 AM »
How about a monolith?

Its not quite as good at tank busting as the other options you mention, but could provide you with a tank that can the take the heat and can dish out quite some nice firepower.
Also, Ive found out that getting WWB re-rolls and getting my immortals out of combat is quite a good tactic(my immortals usually form the front of my army, provinding cover saves to the rest of my army, when they get stuck into CC, I either tp them out with the monolith, or better with the veil I give to the lord, so the whole army is able to rapid fire at the CC squad now stuck in the open.)

That said, I do tend to take heavy destroyers, usually in teams of 1 and 1 or 2 and 2(to help with WWB rolls and spreading damage a bit.)

Offline Demonboy

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2008, 02:35:54 PM »
I use Monoliths in every list, they are amazing.

Offline darthava

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2008, 03:48:28 PM »
true, but in lower points value games I find myself not using them,

On topic tough, if I had to choose between immortals or destroyers,
Id go with immortals. Why? because ive found immortals more useful then destroyers(mind you I find destroyers great also.) Why I think immortals are more useful? I use them to provide cover to my warriors on the advance, they can absorb a assault and live(unless its really ugly.) and tp out of CC With a veil lord, leaving a potential target for rapid fire.

Offline Demonboy

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2008, 09:22:17 PM »
If your decision is Immortals or Destroyers I'd say Immortals as well because they are just a tad less shooty but they are half the points and so you can field more which are better for a few reasons. 1) You'll have a better Necron:Point ratio 2) you can lose 2 Immortals which is equal to lossing 1 Destroyer but it takes twice the firepower and 3) if you have 5 Destroyers its really easy to kill off the entire squad and have them never use WBB, however, with about 8 Immortals (~=points) they'll have a better chance of surviving the same amount of fire power and the dead ones will possibly come back.

Offline CrownAxe

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2008, 12:57:26 AM »
They're about even, if not the Destoryers a better

like Demonboy said you can get 2 immortals for the about price of 1 destroyer and you'd get an extra shot and 2 bodies instead

However Destroyers get better movement, range and a stronger weapon, that movement and range is usually enough to equal the toughness having 2 immortals by staying out of range of most weapons while firing back at them

Immortals are basically stronger and tougher warriors and suffer from the same lack of speed, usually balanced with flying circus but has its instability which can cause the whole unit to be useless or eradicated via assualt

Offline Demonboy

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2008, 09:42:07 AM »
You must also look at it from your enemies point of view, if your enemy sees 5 Destroyers on the field he'll know they have long range and he'll shoot at them before the rest of your army is in range. The Immortals, however, have 24" range and the enemy wont need to worry about them until he's worrying about all of your 24" range weapons (with include a majority of your army). So if you do choose destroyers make sure you get a lot of them and use them appropriately.

Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2008, 11:50:38 AM »
Destroyers with their stronger guns and better range are superior in nearly every way to Immortals.  They are much less likely to be swept away in an assault with their Jetbike-type movement, and if you bring enough of them(2 squadrons of 3 or 4 in most of my lists) the game will be rare that they are completely removed from the board.

You must also look at it from your enemies point of view, if your enemy sees 5 Destroyers on the field he'll know they have long range and he'll shoot at them before the rest of your army is in range. The Immortals, however, have 24" range and the enemy wont need to worry about them until he's worrying about all of your 24" range weapons (with include a majority of your army).

So if they're not shooting at Destroyers they'll be shooting at everything else anyway.  I'm not 100% sure of your point here.

Besides, if they're pumping a lot of dakka into units that are between 3-5 and are toughness 5(and therefore less susceptible to WBB denial) the opponent is less likely to be doing as much damage to your army than if they were trashing your Warrior Squads of 10-20 with T4.

Offline Demonboy

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2008, 02:51:03 PM »
Destroyers with their stronger guns and better range are superior in nearly every way to Immortals.  They are much less likely to be swept away in an assault with their Jetbike-type movement, and if you bring enough of them(2 squadrons of 3 or 4 in most of my lists) the game will be rare that they are completely removed from the board.

You must also look at it from your enemies point of view, if your enemy sees 5 Destroyers on the field he'll know they have long range and he'll shoot at them before the rest of your army is in range. The Immortals, however, have 24" range and the enemy wont need to worry about them until he's worrying about all of your 24" range weapons (with include a majority of your army).

So if they're not shooting at Destroyers they'll be shooting at everything else anyway.  I'm not 100% sure of your point here.

Besides, if they're pumping a lot of dakka into units that are between 3-5 and are toughness 5(and therefore less susceptible to WBB denial) the opponent is less likely to be doing as much damage to your army than if they were trashing your Warrior Squads of 10-20 with T4.

No, if they weren't shotting your destroyers they'd be shooting your Immortals which are just as hard to kill. We aren't talking about Warriors here. Yes, Destroyers are better then Immortals, but then again Monoliths are better then Warriors. So why do we take either Warriors or Immortals at all? Because they have an ability that makes them better: points. Immortals are better per point then destroyers are. For an army to function as an army it needs to work together, Destroyers work well in numbers (meaning a destroyer list with large amounts of destroyers and heavy destroyers). Immortals work well in 1 squad of 10 with a Veil Lord. Destroyers are the better choice if thats the type of fighting your army works with, if not, your army may be better suited for Immortals.

Every game I've chosen Destroyers in they died either turn 1 or turn 2, but my Immortals lived the entire battle (with the exception with one game when I only passed their Morale test 1/4 of the time).

Offline CrownAxe

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2008, 03:38:46 PM »
Your probably playing your Destroyers wrong

Destroyers pretty much stay in the back of the field the entire time out of range of a lot of fire power

Offline Demonboy

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2008, 09:49:53 PM »
Exorcists shoot further then Destroyers.

I just love it how whenever I'm right.... I'm wrong.

Offline CrownAxe

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2008, 12:44:49 AM »
Exorcists shoot further then Destroyers.

I just love it how whenever I'm right.... I'm wrong.
Did i say EVERY gun in the game has shorter range then the destoryers? no i didn't

I said a lot, almost every tank in the game has a weapon of 36+, but destroyers still an hide behind terrain from tanks and shot at infantry too, its not a hard concept to grasp

Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2008, 06:33:09 AM »
Your probably playing your Destroyers wrong

Destroyers pretty much stay in the back of the field the entire time out of range of a lot of fire power

Quoted for truth.

Especially now that those destroyers in the back will be getting a 4+ Cover save from intervening models and still be able to reach your opponent's lines from turn 1, instead of having to slog for a turn or two with Immortals.

Immortals are better per point then destroyers are.

How so?  I agree that Destroyers cost more, but they also move as Jetbikes and their firepower is superior in every way.  You brought up Immortals with a Veil Lord as being effective.  It's not as effective as it used to be with the 5th edition gauss rules, not to mention the fact that Destroyers don't need to be teleported to shoot whatever they want on the board in the majority of situations.  This also removes that pesky Deep Strike mishap table from your list of things to worry about.

Offline moc065

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2008, 09:51:43 AM »
Destroyers and Immortals both have the nuaunsis that make them both better than ecah other in specific instances. The overall factor that makes either one really better than the other is their use within the specific list.

If you need a unit that can augment yout shooting, is mobile, and can provide some Assault absorbtion, or even dish a little out, then Immortals are the way to go... But if you need a unit that can lay down in insane amount of ranged a mobil fire support then the Destroyers are the better choice.

BOTH Immortals and Destroyers should be fielded on mass to have the best effect, and in pair units for that matter... I actually tend to use both within my army as I find that units of 5-7 Immortals can off-set enemies trying to rush my Warriors; while units of 4-5 Destroyers can simply crush most targets through saturation fire...

1500pts list
Lord RO (140)
6 Immortals (168)
6 Immortals (168)
10 Warriors (180)
10 Warriors (180)
4 Destroyers (200)
4 Destroyers (200)
2 H-Destroyers (130)
2 H-Destroyers (130)

1496, 43 figures (all Necrons) PO=10... with 2 scoring units, 9 KP's.
     I run the Warriors with the Lord and Immortals as a Phalanx that has Speed Bumps built in, and the Destroyers generally work as 1 group working a flank until its gone... I do also throw the H-Destoryers in front of the enemy as another Speed Bump if needed while the Destroyers just keep shooting at anything they can... Granted I generally get Draws (3 so far with only 1 win) but that is due to Scoring issues, and the enemies ability to contest my 2 units in the end game if I don't waste him totally. I am generally starting to like the larger games more as well (1750+) as they allow me to get a Monolith in there and/or a larger scoring unit of Warriors... and I tried to go full tilt Immortals or Destroyers but foudn that I was either lacking in Fire support, or that I was lacking in Speed Bumps.

Oh and for those that know me a bit, yes I do run Wraith Wing armies and/or Flayed Ones as well; but I was keeping this discussion to the ops type of force; and more importantly to Immortals and Destroyers.
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Offline Akaiyou

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2008, 04:47:38 PM »
I also vote for the Immortals people do need to understand the concept of POINT VALUE! This is all too important to dismiss.

So what you get jetbike movement? 12" movement and the ability to move over obstacles yes this is nice however...

lets compare to a normal warrior.

Warrior cost 18 points

Immortal upgrade +10 points, for +1 Toughness. Weapon receives +1 strength +1 AP, Assault 2

Destroyer upgrade +32 points, for +1 Toughness, Jetbike abilities. Weapon receives +2 Strength, +1 AP, +12" Heavy 3(translates to assault 3 due to relentless rule).

Does this seem cost effective to you?
Compare 'em directly (immortal vs destroyer)

for 22 more points! you are only getting jetbike ablities, +1 strengh to your gun and 1 more shot and +12" range!

if we consider that from a warrior to an immortal we pay 10 points for +1 strength and +1 shot. that means that 12 points are for jetbike and range upgrades. Is it worth it?

Not really.

Why?

Less point effective. When shooting at most of the same targets you WILL kill more by using an Immortals unit of equal point value to a Destroyer unit.

Let's test this shall we?
5 Destroyers @ 250 Pts
      Gauss Cannon

9 Immortals @ 252 Pts
      Gauss Blaster

Offensively Immortals have an effective range of 30" a game board is 6 x 4. Meaning that if your opponent is straight ahead from you (as they usually tend to be) you WILL be able to shoot them first turn by deploying upfront and considering that your opponent doesnt decide to completely deploy at the back of his deployment line (this is rarely the case). Destroyers have an effective shot range of 48" which is the standard for more heavy support guns able to reach all the way across from one long table edge to the other.

So seeing as the range to an enemy infront of you is not really that important lets just compare different targets, and look at the offensive power statistically.

Imperial Guard EQ
Toughness 3
Sv 5+

Destroyers - 15 Shots - 10 Hits - 8 Wounds Dead
Immortals - 18 Shots - 12 Hits - 10 Wounds Dead WINNER

Tau EQ
Toughness 3
Sv 4+

Destroyers - 15 Shots - 10 Hits - 8 Wounds Dead
Immortals - 18 Shots - 12 Hits - 10 Wounds Dead  WINNER

Ork EQ
Toughness 4
Sv 6+

Destroyers - 15 Shots - 10 Hits - 8 Wounds Dead EQUAL
Immortals - 18 Shots - 12 Hits - 8 Wounds Dead EQUAL

Marine EQ
Toughness 4
Sv 3+

Destroyers - 15 Shots - 10 Hits - 8 Wounds - 2.66 Dead (+ 1.6 Possible Rend)
Immortals - 18 Shots - 12 Hits - 8 Wounds - 2.66 Dead (+ 2 Possible Rends) WINNER

Terminator EQ
Toughness 4
Sv 2+

Destroyers - 15 Shots - 10 Hits - 8 Wounds - 1.33 Dead (+ 1.6 Possible Rend)
Immortals - 18 Shots - 12 Hits - 8 Wounds - 1.33 Dead (+ 2 Possible Rends) WINNER

Character EQ
Toughness 5
Sv 3+

Destroyers - 15 Shots - 10 Hits - 6.7 Wounds - 2.23 Dead (+ 1.6 Possible Rend)
Immortals - 18 Shots - 12 Hits - 6 Wounds - 2 Dead (+ 2 Possible Rends) WINNER

In the Destroyer's defense i'd like to add that they are MUCH better at Hunting AV 10 and AV 11 vehicles. And just generally better vs. vehicles.

Now defensively which is what most people are arguing that the Destroyer is so much better at...is this really true? Mmmhmmmm

Immortals and Destroyers have the SAME EXACT stat line, so what would make them more survivable is movement? Hiding behind cover to avoid enemy fire...the problem with this however is, that if you intend to actually shoot at things you'll need to come out of hiding. And since we are NOT tau and can't move again during our assault phase, that means that you will be shootable! when the enemy's turn comes.

And who's to say that immortals can't move into cover as well? However they are better geared for frontline offense. However they have the model count on their side. 9 Immortals are simply harder to wipe off the board in a single turn than 5 Destroyers. WBB gives you 50% chance of revival, since they have equal stat lines this means weapons will affect them the same when shot however every destroyer loss is worth 50 points every immortal loss is worth 28.

The units of destroyers lose a large chunk of their effectiveness meanwhile the immortals only hvae a slight set back.

Also keep in mind that your armor save is normally better than any cover save you can get so take that into account when you make your cover argument. And the weapons that do negate your normal armour save normally do not shoot multiple shots (with a few exceptions) so having more wounds to go around is ALWAYS the best defensive tactic even more so than being able to maneuver around.

Thus point wise Immortal units > Destroyer units.
It is an indisputable better deal and able to pump our more damage for equal point cost units.
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Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2008, 04:54:37 PM »
What you have failed to point out in your admittedly informative post is that S6 will Cause Instant Death on toughness 3, multi-wound models.  You're also only talking about vehicles and low toughness infantry.

Destroyers wound SMurfs on 2s and Flyrants on 4s, which, you know, is nice...   ;)

Also, when you're pointing out that Destroyers and Immortals are equally survivable you're kind of missing the effect that Destroyer movement has on their durability.  With the ability to move 12 inches and and the 36 inch range they're able to stay out of range of weapons and still fire, something that Immortals would be unable to achieve.

Offline Akaiyou

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2008, 05:19:48 PM »
What you have failed to point out in your admittedly informative post is that S6 will Cause Instant Death on toughness 3, multi-wound models.  You're also only talking about vehicles and low toughness infantry.

Destroyers wound SMurfs on 2s and Flyrants on 4s, which, you know, is nice...   ;)

Also, when you're pointing out that Destroyers and Immortals are equally survivable you're kind of missing the effect that Destroyer movement has on their durability.  With the ability to move 12 inches and and the 36 inch range they're able to stay out of range of weapons and still fire, something that Immortals would be unable to achieve.

It's not really that I failed to point it out but just that it's sort of a moot point about instant killing toughness 3. Unless you really intend to aim your destroyers are swarms? in which case you are totally right Destroyes would pawn those. But mmm I just wouldn't feel right besides the warriors need something to shoot i'd leave it to them.

There ARE other multi wound toughness 3 models out there but not enough to make a case for it's usefulness. As I tried to point out the majority of targets you'll face and shoot at to gauge effectiveness.

More than half of the time these are the sort of targets you'll be shooting immortals/destroyers at. Standard Infantry and Light Vehicles.

Against MEQ i already mentioned that the Immortals are better. Yes Destroyer wound on 2s but Marines save on 3s. Immortals beat out destroyers by causing equal amount of wounds against marines + more rends. 

Against Flytyrants the Immortals ARE still better just compare
Tyranid Monstrous Creature EQ
Toughness 6
Sv 3+

Destroyers - 15 Shots - 10 Hits - 5 Wounds - 1.66 Dead (+ 1.6 Possible Rend)
Immortals - 18 Shots - 12 Hits - 4 Wounds - 1.33 Dead (+ 2 Possible Rends) WINNER

yes destroyers can easily stay out of the range of small arms fire this is true but other weapons are likely to target them to equally decimating effect.

With necros you REALLY need to value every wound you have. Immortal units carry more wounds improve PO and WBB odds as well as not losing as much unit effectiveness with every one killed. The hiding in the back strategy is more suited for Heavy Destroyers. Destroyers because Destroyers need to move UP to maximize their range the same thing with Immortals.

IF immortals had Rapid Fire weapons instead. Then yes Destroyers would be superior but this is not the case. Hopefully we get a new codex that makes destroyers cheaper and able to form bigger units. That would be a dream come true eh?
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Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2008, 05:25:12 PM »
What's this about rends?

 


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