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Offline Temperance

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Which Army?
« on: April 11, 2020, 03:35:04 PM »
So everyone's replies in my other thread cautiously convinced me GW's not going to do anything extreme to 40k or its armies, I guess. At least in part. The next piece of the thought process is where to start. And while I have to make the choice, I'd be interested in a sounding board once more.

1) Primaris Marines
Having just been effectively redone, and also being GW's posterboys, this is the only faction I'm 100% convinced isn't in line for a forthcoming makeover, and that's a huge plus. I've also always wanted to paint up some Howling Griffons, but never have. As imperials, I can ally in some of my old metal sisters if I feel like it. Bonus.

On the flip side, I actively dislike the new primaris hover-tanks, and some other models of theirs don't do anything for me either. (The basic infantry looks great though.)


2) IG
I kind of like the idea of playing what is (basically) a normal human faction. I also like the idea of not being just another marine player, because there are way too many of those and diversity of games makes things fun (and makes people less likely to meta-pick against my own list). I like the tanks, and generally like the models. I could ally my sisters again, and feel like they'd make even fluffier allies included here than in a marine list. So double bonus.

On the flip side, I feel like they might be due for new models in the not-too-long-from-now? Any idea if that's true? The cadians aren't exactly new, and I'd hate to buy hundreds of them now only to be struck with model envy when new cutting edge ones come out. I'm also worried that they'd end up being tactically stale in a "put guns down, bubble wrap tanks, rinse/repeat each game" way. Not sure how successfully you can run a more aggressive IG list these days?


3) Sisters
Well, I have them. So that's both a pro and a con. It's nice to have most of a list, but it kills the chance to hobby/paint stuff up, and the new models are amazing and I'd want to buy them anyways. But I don't really want a double-sized army. It feels like a bad use of my cash. Especially when I could just buy a few new squads to ally into an IG/Marine list instead. I'm hanging on to my sisters for sure, but I don't think I really want to plunge into them as a "new" army. Worth considering though, I guess.


4) Eldar
I played Eldar way back in 2nd edition. I love their models. I remain concerned that something funky is going to happen with this army via the Ynari story GW (was?) pushing though. I know they'll never flat out go away, but I'm not convinced they'll remain as is either. Once-bit-twice-shy, and all that, I guess. Their various aspect warriors have often had problems being really effective too (except when they were crazy over-the-top effective). I don't know where they stand now... It's probably a list that would need a lot of mechanized transport, and I think I'd rather have something infantry based (or drop pod, or assault packs, or... not just mobile tanks/bikes with stuff in them).


5) Tau.
I actually really love the infantry models of the Tau. Love them. Not crazy about the anime walkers though... but they're ok. Know very little about this list other than that it's shooty. Not sure how it's different from IG, beyond having fewer troops with someone better guns and more overwatch hijinx. Would appreciate insight. Possible to make an effective hybrid list of static Infantry/suits and mobile firewarriors (or what not) in transports?

I don't know. I think Howling Griffons, IG, or Tau are the two leading contenders by a pretty significant margin. Not sure which path to go down though, and not really familiar with how the IG are able to play successfully (beyond creating rocking gun lines). 

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Which Army?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2020, 03:56:17 PM »
I wouldn't expect any of the lines your thinking of to have a new miniatures line, you'd be fine collecting any of them. Also, in reference to craftworlds, there is no chance the faction is going anywhere. The only thing we might see is more of the old kits redone in plastic.

Ynnari is a separate faction, and according to the lore, the Aldari acceptance of the Ynnari faction is around 50%. Some are game on, some think they are a huge mistake. There will always be non-ynnari aligned craftworlds, Drukhari, and Harlequins.

I think any of the factions are cool.

The sisters of battle miniatures line is absolutely stunning.

I see lots of Craftworld armies, as it's always been a powerful faction. Tau is pretty popular today too.

Astral Militarum, I don't see as much,  and have a wealth of army builds and unit choices, plus some absolutely amazing Forgeworld kits (including some fantastic Cadian upgrades) I wouldn't expect any new model range for them, but there are so many good gw kits in which you can convert your own unique AM army.

I have a Primaris marine army, and I think the whole miniatures line is absolutely stunning, but I do understand the desire to play something unique.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Which Army?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2020, 06:29:32 PM »
It's a good time to get into Eldar, though I'd avoid the resin aspect warriors if you have the patience, as I imagine many of them will, like Howling Banshees, be getting plastic reworks in the coming years.
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Offline Temperance

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Re: Which Army?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2020, 06:48:46 PM »
What makes it a good time for elder in particular?

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Which Army?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2020, 09:54:35 PM »
In terms of rules support and balance, Craftworlds are in a good place. We have plastic sculpts for two of our troops, all of our vehicles, and several of our aspect warriors. Have been consistently competitively viable throughout all of 8e. Strong rules update in Phoenix Rising. Good chance for more new plastics in the next 5 years. 
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Offline Temperance

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Re: Which Army?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2020, 11:54:44 PM »
Hmm, interesting. Thanks.

With regards to the IG, what sort of lists/styles/approaches are viable in a competitive atmosphere? (By which I mean people generally trying to make solid lists and avoid inefficient choices - but still in a generally good natured way and not in some win-at-all-costs completely abusive lists only).

Lists where mildly above average units still are some play, and even average ones here and there. If that makes sense.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Which Army?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2020, 05:31:11 AM »
IG lists tend to include:

Support character in the form of
1-3 Company Commanders
Psyker support in the form of 2-3 Astropaths and Primaris Psykers
Straken + a Ministorum Priest if Catachans

A tank line including
2-3 Tank Commanders with battle cannons or punisher cannons, plus Pask if Cadians

A nice blob of infantry, usually
6 Infantry squads, usually barebones

An artillery line, usully consisting of:
1-4 manticores + basilisks
0-2 wyverns
0-1 hydras if it's a flyer heavy meta
a master of ordnance sometimes


Some armies, particularly ones more focused on melee like catachan + straken + mini priest armies, will take a big deathstar of bullgryns and lay some buffs on them.

Some armies will take 3 cheap fast attack units to form a brigade. Armored sentinels with plasma cannons (if cadian) provide reasonable firepower, though scout sentinels with heavy flamers are a favored choice for catachans, as are hellhounds.

It's not uncommon to see a few heavy weapon squads of all mortars, which are cheap and can shoot from out of line of sight while holding a backfield objective
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Offline Temperance

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Re: Which Army?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2020, 09:29:44 AM »
Thanks for that good run down.

I think I’m leaning IG, because from a narrative view I feel like I can really organically add a small detachment of howling griffons or sisters (whereas adding a small detachment of guardsmen to help out the all-but-flawless members of the adeptua astartea feels like a stretch... although stories could certainly be thought up).

Running some Alaitoc or Tau would be lovely.  But I do like the possibility of commuting a bit less to just one force this way.

Out of curiosity, would either marines or sisters be able to fill a valuable role in an IG list? Or would they mostly be getting shoehorned in just for fun. Previously I would have thought of sisters as a way to get some dominions and shred tanks, letting the guardsmen and their mass focus on numbers.... but from what I understand this isn’t the edition for melta weapons. More expensive but still fragile infantry doesn’t sound like a huge plus either. And I don’t (think?) they can abuse faith as allies anymore.

As for marines, I’m honestly not at all familiar with what the primaris options could or couldn’t bring to the table.  I can’t even name all of them, so there is a huge knowledge deficit there on my end.

But f either of those two factions could fill a list-driven purposeful role as well as a narrative one, I think that would clinch it for me.


Edit: Not very familiar with running assault catachans. How do they do? Is it actual assault, or close and flamer spam like sisters?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 09:32:09 AM by Temperance »

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Which Army?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2020, 04:04:03 PM »
Both sisters and marines can work alongside imperial guard, though the most common way you see it done is an imperial guard detachment that looks something like
Battalion of Cadians
2-3 Tank Commanders
3 Infantry Squads (barebones)
a couple basilisks or something, maybe some mortar squads

alongside a primarily space marines army

Catachans are actually decent in melee combat, though they rely on buffing characters like the ministorum priest and straken to make it happen. They won't cut through armor but they put out a great deal of attacks at strength 4 in this case.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Which Army?
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2020, 10:18:15 PM »
Tempestus Scions with Valkries are quite good now thanks to the Greater Good psychic awakening book. Taurox Primes are actually decent cheap "battle tanks" too (Taurox missile launcher and 2x Autocannons).

Don't count them out of an IG list.

While resin can be hit or miss in quality Scorpions, Rangers, Dragons and Dark Reapers are perfectly fine sculpts still. Albeit some what static/copy-paste if they received plastic kits the old ones would still fit right in. The new plastic Banshees aren't really different in design. Just poses and a bit more dynamic in effect.

Shining Spears will require some conversion work but is easy with all the 3d printed bits out there (shapeways). They're amazing this edition so you'll want to make some.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 10:24:12 PM by Partninja »

Offline magenb

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Re: Which Army?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2020, 10:35:29 PM »
Soo.. what attracts you to the 40k universe, the hobby, the lore, friendly gaming, competitive gaming...

So, if you are interested in the hobby first, go with what model line and lore you think is the best combo. I would even say the same thing for friendly gaming. This is the sort of thing you can do for decades and thing happen in cycles, some units/armies and good for a while then they aren't yadda.

Competitive gaming... Craftworld Eldar have had a strong force in every edition, if you can work out the combo's. Few armies have had that level of consistency.


Offline Temperance

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Re: Which Army?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2020, 03:54:11 PM »
A little bit of everything.

In a prior life when it was 1990-ish and I was able to just drive down to my local multi-tabled shop for games any day of the week, I'd say friendly gaming (on the somewhat more competitive side) was my main draw, although I found the setting fun and didn't dislike the hobby-bits either. That was super-fun, in a nostalgic sort of way one can never actually recreate. I'm sure it doesn't hurt that it's mixed in with my memories of driving for the first time. Haha.

Now though, I think the main draw is a mix of painting and competitive gaming.

With painting, I'm a bit better than I was as a child and can find more fun in it than stress. As the price of minis has gone up, I feel that treating armies as slow art projects makes it much easier to stomach the purchase cost than simply picking up everything at once too. It's hard (impossible, even) for me to justify buying a whole army at once so I can get games in. I'm not poor, but I'm not that sort of wealthy either. However, it's much easier for myself to justify spending $55 on a squad that I'll spend weeks trying to paint to a high standard.

When I say competitive gaming I mean gaming in a competitive setting more than constantly pursing the best army/list (as fairly infrequent tournaments are the only places I'm likely to get actual games in these days). I'd aim to bring decent lists and do my best, but not particularly expect to do great. My understanding is that a few tournaments use a sort of matching system based on day one performance, so I might end up playing against other people in my general boat on day two, which could be pretty fun. (That said, I've never actually been to one. For all I know, I might end up totally disappointed. But I live on the US East Coast, and am pretty close to the NOVA Open and a few others.) I'd love some good beer/pretzels friendly gaming ... but have no one to do this with these days.

My "local" GW is within drive-able distance still, but it's overcrowded and short on tables (and on the longer side of drive-able). People also seem to use facebook to arrange games with people they already know at it. I'm sure I could manage to do that in the future, but that lacks the appeal that true pick up games had for me in the 90's for various reasons. One of the things I liked most about 90's pickups was all the random people I met, who I never would have talked to otherwise. In that sense, tournaments might be closer to it now than a current face-book arranged game at my GW.

The background is nice for a setting, but I can think of several books I'm likely to go out and buy before I bought a Black library one just to get more of the setting. (This is one reason I don't love the recent trend of constant "story progression/rule" hybrid books that GW is pumping out).

*     *     *     *
Anyways... still pondering a bit. But IG with allies seems like it's probably the right choice for me.

They're not my absolute favorite mini line, but I like them (I'd have prefered marines with the old tanks, but I simply can't make myself like the new marine tanks for reasons of purely personal taste). The guard give me access to painting and playing with allies I like even more. They (probably?) have as many playstyles as most people. I feel like sisters will certainly be much more limited in playstyle. Eldar might have more, but have far fewer ranges for me to paint/play with. Marines probably have as many playstyles, probably more based on chapter selection. But it simply feels more organic to me from a fluff/painting/ratio perspective to have marines/sisters/knights allied to guard than the other way around. Choosing IG feels like it (almost) lets me have my cake and eat it too.

... and I've never tried the "new' GW paints, but I hear good things about their ability to make painting things like skin (an old big issue for me) much easier. I'd sort of enjoy the ability to play with that in a non-helmeted list too. IG could be big beneficiaries of those paints, for me at least.

My only real worry is that after I finally finish painting up 120 cadians, they'll release new vastly improved cadians. Because I won't want to rebuy/repaint that much for sure  ::)

Thanks again, everyone. You've been really useful as a sounding board for me.

PS: One final question, if anyone knows. Do the Digital Deluxe Edition codicies GW sells auto-update to include FAQs and such? Or do those need to be hunted down seperately still? If they auto-update I'm totally buying one. If not, I think I still prefer a print codex.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 04:20:37 PM by Temperance »

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Which Army?
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2020, 09:02:53 PM »
I think you're a bit fixated on kits being replaced. If it's in plastic, it's not going anywhere.

The only kits being updated with any frequency are characters and units not already in plastic.

I don't have any apple products, so I can't say about if they auto update. Perhaps you could check the release dates of the faq/ chapter approved,  and see if the books have updates for those times?

I had a non-enhanced book for a supplement in 7th edition, and the file I could download when the book was released with its 2nd edition.


For me, I often spend 3-8 months to fully collect an army, and i usually sell an older army, before I start a new one. I don't care about chasing the competitive meta, and just collect and paint whatever appeals to me.

What's regarded as good or bad in highly competitive tournaments can vary week to week sometimes, so I'd not get too fussed with that.

I've been to a lot of competitive events. Most are once day events (3 games), but two day events are gaining popularity (5-6 games).

It's swiss pairings, so after the first round, you're always against folks with the same record as you. But, I've been to multiple events where I've just lost all games over the two days. I go to tournaments for the social aspect, as I know a lot of folks in the Canadian (and some Americans) in the regular tournament circuit.

I think the best thing you could do is start small. See if any local folks want to do a slow grown leauge with you. Start with like 250, or 500pts and add to that each month. Gives you time to get stuff painting and get some games in before you commit to buying a lot at once. That way, you'll get a better idea on how you want to play thr army, and how you'll want to expand.

About the contrast paints,  they are amazing. I won't be painting anything without them anymore. They are not foolproof though, and take a bit of practice. The darker and lighter colours operate differently as well. But,  they are powerful time saving tools. If you look in my previous posts,  my spiderfang army I posted is painted mostly in those paints.
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