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Author Topic: Margaret Thatcher GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE  (Read 14163 times)

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Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #40 on: April 9, 2013, 12:34:17 PM »
Trashing heavy industry and manufacturing was and still is an error. The fact remains that she may have picked a direction but it was Tony Blair who held power for about as long as she did, and he who drove it through. Not that he said so in his election speeches.

Should the state have supported uneconomic coal mining regardless? That's basically the crux of it. Ever seen Billy Elliot? Had the mine stayed he'd have joined it and dug coal with his father and brother, his dreams of the London ballet ignored, is that a better community?

As I said, she's no saint but no monster either. And dancing on anyone's grave is childish at best.
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #41 on: April 9, 2013, 01:47:05 PM »
Trashing heavy industry and manufacturing was and still is an error. The fact remains that she may have picked a direction but it was Tony Blair who held power for about as long as she did, and he who drove it through. Not that he said so in his election speeches.

Nobody in this thread is saying Tony Blair was the anti-Thatcher, if anything we all seem to be agreeing that he is the negative consequence of her premiership. That he also sucked in continuing her execrable policies isn't much of a defence of her, is it?

Should the state have supported uneconomic coal mining regardless? That's basically the crux of it. Ever seen Billy Elliot? Had the mine stayed he'd have joined it and dug coal with his father and brother, his dreams of the London ballet ignored, is that a better community?

No. But why are the only options "subsidise and prop up coal industry in the UK" or "gut it viciously"? Why isn't there a more sensible option along the lines of "eliminate coal subsidies over a period of time while putting in place support for alternative industries in the areas entirely or almost entirely dependent on it for their livelihoods"?
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Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #42 on: April 9, 2013, 03:42:17 PM »
Quote
No. But why are the only options "subsidise and prop up coal industry in the UK" or "gut it viciously"? Why isn't there a more sensible option along the lines of "eliminate coal subsidies over a period of time while putting in place support for alternative industries in the areas entirely or almost entirely dependent on it for their livelihoods"?

As if the unions would have accepted that... We're talking about a time when unions would attack private companies because they didn't hire what they considered to be the 'right' number of staff.

That said I agreed it could have been done better in my previous post, and to be honest I have little interest in playing strawman for your thatcher hatred.

« Last Edit: April 9, 2013, 03:51:51 PM by Hymirl, Space Machine! »
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Offline Sheepz

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #43 on: April 9, 2013, 03:53:54 PM »
Update: continued drinking and cheering today. Feelings of elation. If you're not getting the whole 'enjoying the death of a hate figure' thing, I pity you and the life you have wasted   ;) .

In response to whatever you said yesterday gml, her death has found common ground between you and Hym. That's how wonderful it is. Even if you are both totes wrong, I respect your completely incorrect opinions and think its great that you're back together.

And pre Thatcher Britain was not milk and honey, although it is widely accepted her policies set back the NI peace process, destroyed lives and communities across the north of England. I mean, she was pals with fascists. She wasn't a good person. Not even a little bit. All the way to her core.


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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #44 on: April 9, 2013, 04:34:30 PM »
As if the unions would have accepted that... We're talking about a time when unions would attack private companies because they didn't hire what they considered to be the 'right' number of staff.

So Margaret Thatcher was powerful enough to effectively destroy the mining unions, but not powerful enough to work out a compromise with them to prevent that from happening? Can't quite see it myself.

That said I agreed it could have been done better in my previous post, and to be honest I have little interest in playing strawman for your thatcher hatred.

So why bother posting? Were you in some way confused about the nature of this thread? If so, allow me to clear that up for you; this thread is a discussion about Margaret Thatcher's recent death, and as a natural consequence it has turned into a discussion of the merits of her policies. You're welcome to agree or disagree with my opinion on Thatcher, but it seems rather odd to declare your intent not to respond to comments about Thatcher in a thread discussing her life (and death, of course). Wouldn't it be easier not to bother posting?
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Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #45 on: April 9, 2013, 07:52:36 PM »
You need to start reading some posts Chuckles, I said I had no interest in endlessly answering pointless left wing liberalist quibbles in defense of things I don't agree with. Getting up on your high horse is hardly useful... Just because I consider your predictable anti-thatcherism worthless doesn't mean that applies to the whole thread. You may see things as black or white but I don't.

For example, I don't agree with her support of the apartheid South African government either, doesn't mean I don't agree with other things she did. It's not a simple Yey or ney as you claim it is.

In fact this article probably explains my point more eloquently than I'm managing.
How Twitter and Facebook forced Thatcher's adoring fans and hysterical enemies

Quote
So Margaret Thatcher was powerful enough to effectively destroy the mining unions, but not powerful enough to work out a compromise with them to prevent that from happening? Can't quite see it myself.

I love how you pretend it's all Thatchers fault. I thought it took two to fight its not like the unions wanted a middle ground either. Besides any change would have undoubtly begotten strikes (given how frequent they were before Thatcher came to power) and meant either the government chooses to fold or fight.  And frankly I think the overbearing power of the trade unions did need breaking.

You saying the unions were acting reasonably? The innocent party in all this? Really?
« Last Edit: April 9, 2013, 08:11:43 PM by Hymirl, Space Machine! »
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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #46 on: April 9, 2013, 08:56:07 PM »
I'm all for thoughtful criticism of deceased people, even irreverent dismissal of attempts to lionise them. I'm just not greatly enthused by the idea of celebrating death. It was an opinion I held when bin Laden got a bullet through his brains, it's an opinion I hold now when Mrs. Thatcher passed away, and it's an opinion I hope I will hold when Anders Behring Breivik one day passes away hopefully somewhere far away from the public spotlight. (The people have been chosen as examples from different areas, no comparison is otherwise intended.)

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #47 on: April 9, 2013, 09:49:20 PM »
I'm not going to dance on her grave.   Even if I hated her, which I don't.  She had a lot of notions that I disagreed with:

In her memoirs, she wrote that the The Troubles in Northern Ireland were sorely the fault of the IRA, and that they would end as soon as they were defeated.  That's so stupid and one sided it's contemptible.  It ignores the fact that the Provos only came into being a full five to six years after the renewed Ulster Volunteer Force began a campaign of violence against those 'jumped up taigs' in the Civil Rights Association who dared to ask for equal treatment for Catholics...who also had to contend with the loyalist dominated police beating them for daring to demonstrate their right to protest.  Oh, and the Parachute Regiment gunning down people on Bloody Sunday give the IRA all the support they ever needed.  The Troubles were bigger than the IRA.

She backed the South African Apartheid regime, supported right wing dictators, and set in motion the systems that have caused the problems of today.  But...

Britain needed her.  Those unions were simply out of control, dictating policy to successive governments.  The country was broke and in decline...we had to go to the IMF for beslubber's sake.  Three day weeks...power cuts...strikes...Br itish Leyland (seriously, beslubber BL)...the systems were so backward, the world didn't want to know.  She came in with vision and conviction, and the drive to fix the country the way she thought it needed to be fixed.  I really admire that.  Modern politicians are utter spineless liars who put holding on to power at all costs first.

And I will say this.  She's been out of power for 23 years.  Labor was in power for 13, during the 'boom time'.  They had plenty of time to fix any problems left behind by her, but they didn't.  Nope, Tony just used her policies to actually turn the clock back to before.  State control is out of control once more, and Labor pissed away any chance to rebuild the country's manufacturing base.  Oh, and Labor also sabotaged the country in a disastrous attempt to make sure the Tories could never be in power again.  You know why the left hate her so much?  Her legacy reminds them of how utter failures they were, and still are.

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2013, 04:24:49 AM »
You need to start reading some posts Chuckles, I said I had no interest in endlessly answering pointless left wing liberalist quibbles in defense of things I don't agree with. Getting up on your high horse is hardly useful... Just because I consider your predictable anti-thatcherism worthless doesn't mean that applies to the whole thread. You may see things as black or white but I don't.

For example, I don't agree with her support of the apartheid South African government either, doesn't mean I don't agree with other things she did. It's not a simple Yey or ney as you claim it is.

In fact this article probably explains my point more eloquently than I'm managing.
How Twitter and Facebook forced Thatcher's adoring fans and hysterical enemies

You accuse me of not reading your posts, and then go on to display a blinding ignorance of what I have actually been saying. This irony, she is delicious.

I'm aware of what you said about answering pointless blah blah blah. I still don't understand it. What you're basically saying is you're going to ignore any criticism of Thatcher you don't think is valid? If not then I'd love for you to explain what you mean.

You also seem to be confusing me with Sheepz and Killing Time. Go back and look through the thread and find a post I've made that is nothing more than a blind "she was awful with no redeeming points whatsoever" statement. I don't see things as black or white and nothing whatsoever that I have said in this thread indicates that I do. I am simply offering my criticisms of her policies and leadership. And your response is "but Blair was so much worse, and it was all his fault really!" I agree wholly with the first statement, much less with the second, but neither of those things is a good counter argument to "Thatcher did some things that were, in my opinion, morally wrong and economically, politically and socially ill-advised". I do not support Tony Blair, so trying to "zing" me by attacking him isn't going to work- I agree with you on Blair. In fact I'd probably go further than you would- I think the man needs to answer for committing possible war crimes. I want to see him in the Hague. But none of that prevents me from also thinking Margaret Thatcher did a bad job, or saying so. I'm not saying she was a monster, but that doesn't mean I can't dislike her.

I love how you pretend it's all Thatchers fault. I thought it took two to fight its not like the unions wanted a middle ground either. Besides any change would have undoubtly begotten strikes (given how frequent they were before Thatcher came to power) and meant either the government chooses to fold or fight.  And frankly I think the overbearing power of the trade unions did need breaking.

You saying the unions were acting reasonably? The innocent party in all this? Really?

I'm saying no such thing, I just don't understand how it's easier for the Prime Minister to undermine unions to the point where they crumble utterly than to work out a compromise with them and their members to make everybody's lives easier.

What's your argument here exactly? Was Thatcher a powerful PM or an impotent one unable to do anything but destroy? Are you suggesting that she would have preferred to come to a compromise but those dastardly union leaders outfoxed her?

And when have I pretended it's all her fault? I'm holding her accountable for her actions, and as PM she wielded a considerable amount of clout.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2013, 06:02:48 AM »
And I will say this.  She's been out of power for 23 years.  Labor was in power for 13, during the 'boom time'.  They had plenty of time to fix any problems left behind by her, but they didn't.  Nope, Tony just used her policies to actually turn the clock back to before.  State control is out of control once more, and Labor pissed away any chance to rebuild the country's manufacturing base.  Oh, and Labor also sabotaged the country in a disastrous attempt to make sure the Tories could never be in power again.  You know why the left hate her so much?  Her legacy reminds them of how utter failures they were, and still are.

Thatcher may have been out of office for a long time, but her influence lives on.  Both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were huge admirers of Thatcher, and Blair, in particular, actually continued with many of her policies of deregulation and privatisation.  I don't understand, therefore, how you can draw the conclusion that the state is 'out of control'.  Nearly everything in this country is privatised, or operates on a public private partnership basis (another New Labour policy, built upon the foundations laid by Thatcher).
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Offline Underhand

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2013, 07:52:38 AM »
Just a couple of quick questions for everyone who has posted in this thread:

How old were you (or were you even alive) when Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister?

I'll start:  I was 11.

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2013, 07:56:52 AM »
You were 11 years old from 1979-1990?! Compared to that knowledge bomb a discussion about Maggie's merits as PM seems largely irrelevant.

 :P

I was 2 when she resigned.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2013, 08:00:06 AM »
Just a couple of quick questions for everyone who has posted in this thread:

How old were you (or were you even alive) when Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister?

I'll start:  I was 11.

You could just check the profiles of those who've posted, as a significant number have their ages posted in their profile ;).

Note too that how old you were doesn't necessarily explain your views on her policies, if that's why asking.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 08:02:38 AM by Irisado »
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Offline Underhand

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2013, 08:21:24 AM »
I've done that.  To publish the results would make a lot of people look foolish.

Seriously - How many posters in this thread are old enough to have actually formed a view of Thatcher as Prime Minister from their personal experience?  Anyone?

Seriously - Anyone?


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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2013, 08:34:20 AM »
Probably very few, but I never posted anything about my personal experiences of her premiership in any case. As a student of both politics and history, including British domestic political history (in some detail), I don't feel any shame in expressing an opinion. I wasn't around in China during the 17th-19th centuries but I could still happily discuss the Qing dynasty at length  :)
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2013, 08:49:55 AM »
I've done that.  To publish the results would make a lot of people look foolish.

Seriously - How many posters in this thread are old enough to have actually formed a view of Thatcher as Prime Minister from their personal experience?  Anyone?

Seriously - Anyone?

No, it wouldn't make people look foolish at all, because age has little to do with this, although, for what it's worth, I do remember listening to Geoffrey Howe's resignation speech first time around, the chaos of the poll tax, the disastrous European policy which Thatcher tried to pursue, and I thinking that i didn't like her very much.

What it's to do with, in my case, is having studied a lot, and then applied what I know now to Thatcher's policies, and this is why I fundamentally disagree with a lot of them.
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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2013, 09:24:49 AM »
Age is realitive in respect to peoples' experience as a direct result of Thatcher's policies or actually there during the decisions being made.  She has a legacy good/bad depending on your opinion.  Personally I felt her to be a strong leader but her foreign policies not so much.  I think she damaged Great Britian and her colonies in ways we havent seen yet.  I worked and lived in the UK from 2001 to 2011, I think the people have every right to speak their opinion when it comes to this.  Putting closure with the 'Iron Lady' may help heal a nation hurting from poor judgement/leadership since her reign to present.  my two teef on it
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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2013, 12:34:46 PM »
I was born in 1977. I will be 36 next week.
I was 7 when the miner's strike started and 13 during the poll tax riots.
I remember both pretty well, and have come to try to understand the politics in the years since.

My opinion is certainly coloured by the strong formative experiences of growing up in South Wales, but I can assure you I've done my homework over the years too.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2013, 07:26:46 PM »
Seriously - How many posters in this thread are old enough to have actually formed a view of Thatcher as Prime Minister from their personal experience?  Anyone?

What's the minimum age you would feel appropriate if this limiting factor is important to you? How old do you feel one has to be to form a(n accurate) view of another's actions from their personal experience?
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Re: Ding dong, the witch is dead
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2013, 08:41:02 PM »
I think the lingering effects of a person's actions can echo down a long, long time after they're gone from power.

For example, the coal miners that lost their livelihoods. Without gainful employment to move onto, many may have been unable to support their families. As a father, I couldn't imagine how painful it would be, to wake up every morning knowing that you have no means to provide for your children, and have no way to change that. Coal mining may be awful work, but if the alternative is not feeding your family, or keeping a roof over their head, than coal mining is just fine and dandy.

Imagine the shame and self-loathing that would come with that. What would your children think of you? How could you raise your children to be hard working, productive members of society while you twiddle your hours away, with no hope?

A child may be unable to understand right-wing, profits-before-people politics, but they get to live with the repercussions of those actions and choices. The opinions formed in youth often form the core of a person's values.

Oh, I would have been -2 to +9. :)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 08:43:35 PM by GreatBigTree »

 


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