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Offline Kage2020

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Beyond this point lies a realm of magic...?
« on: January 7, 2005, 11:58:33 PM »
This type of thread is normally difficult to introduce and often sparks more OffT asides than anything else, so I'm going to try and keep it simple...  It is understood from a reading of the 'fluff' that eldar technology can, or may, have two separate 'sides' that are pretty much integrated in the minds of the eldar.  Broadly speaking these are:

  • Technology, or physical science or whatever.  We know that eldar recreate technology that is understandeable and replicatable by 'other' races (i.e. humans) thereby suggesting that it is bound by the laws of physical reality.
  • Psychic engineering or magic by another name!
But at what point does technology give way to psychic engineering?  Could one, for example, say that a given set of artefacts are technological whie others are produced by psychic engineering? 

Let us consider, for the moment, two examples from the simple to the potentially more abstract:

  • Shuriken catapult; and
  • Computers
Where do the lines between 'technology' and 'psychic engineering' lie?

Edit... Incidentally, ultimately I would like to get into a discussion of the functioning of eldar artefacts but, heck, a response to the thread wodl be good since it is not directly related to the wargame.  So, any takers!?  8)

Kage
« Last Edit: January 8, 2005, 12:32:50 AM by Kage2020 »

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Re: Beyond this point lies a realm of magic...?
« Reply #1 on: January 8, 2005, 02:08:45 PM »
We can always rely on you for deep topics, can't we.  :D

So, let me see if I get this straight.  At some point, you're asking if something made by 'magic/psychic engineering' can be constrained by the laws of physics, and therefore be considered technology?

In my mind, it can be created by 'magic' but after that point most stuff should be governed by physics.  Shuricats for example.  Made by psychic engineering, but afterwards their accuracy is governed by gravity and the other factors of the real world.

of course, I could be totally off here..
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Beyond this point lies a realm of magic...?
« Reply #2 on: January 8, 2005, 03:13:31 PM »
We can always rely on you for deep topics, can't we.  :D
LOL... Well, to be fair I'm not interested in the wargame so delving into the background is about the only thing that I can do! ;)

So, let me see if I get this straight.  At some point, you're asking if something made by 'magic/psychic engineering' can be constrained by the laws of physics, and therefore be considered technology?
No, no, noooo... That's a simple thing to answer.  What I'm really after is the line that one draws between artefacts on whether they are 'technological' or 'psychically engineered'.  Consider the computer, as an example.  The eldar construct this through a number of means and, I would advocate, let us not go too far down this rather hokey route that the eldar produce everything through 'psychic engineering'.  (Remember the older 'fluff' that they had their own version of automated factures... whether these work in this way is another thing entirely.)  But what about the other properties that might be not entirely based in physical reality, but rather use 'warp sorcery' or psychic powers, i.e. the creation of what is in essence an 'enchanted artefact'.

Perhaps this particular version of the question lies more particularly in an interpretation of the Infinity Circuit.  Is it a computer or an 'enchanted' item, or does it blur the line?  At what point can you separate them...?

For example, consider the following short piece.  It was typed on a palm pilot and I haven't really had the time to spell check it, some of the sentences are still fragmentary since it hasn't been proof-read, etc.  It's just the concept that I'm trying to get across here:

Quote
The time had come for Jereth just as it did for all eldar. Though he had long since been aware of the vast consciousness of the craftworld, the repository of the eldar souls against the depravation and hunger of the Great Enemy, his interaction had been thus far minimal. As with all newly born he had been assigned a teah-shih, a guardian, guide and confidant from those eldar who had recently been incorporated to the Infinity Circuit and who found it difficult to break the ties with the mortal realm. They remained as both teah-shih and the guiding consciousness of numerous parts of the craftworld which were considered to be too vital to be left to programmed processes.

Slowing his breathing he turned to his tutor, one of the or 'Guardians of the Young', who regarded him with a questioning look in his eyes. "I am ready, <eldar: seer tutor>."

For a disconcerting second the Seer said nothing, his almond-shaped eyes or posture of his body revealing nothing about his thoughts. "Then it is time is it not, youngling? Or perhaps not. How much longer will you be in my care, I wonder?"

Jereth remained quiet, knowing that the question was rhetorical and that to offer an answer would only confirm his impetuosity and, in its own way, answer the question. Instead he asked a question of his own: "Where are we to interface with the Infinity Circuit?"

"As well you know, the Infinity Circuit can be accessed from almost anywhere in the craftworld, the point determined by circumstance and symbolism. In this case it is traditional for the first delving to occur within the White Library."

"And the symbolism for this is...?"

"Some might say that it is the center of knowledge for the craftworld, though this is obviously false. Others might suggest that our first steps into the future must be taken with full knowledge of our past, and therein would lie a glimmer of truth. The truth as I see it - and perception is always of greatest significance to the self - is that it is the place that I have taken all those who take their first walk in the steps of our ancestors. I find it distinctly comforting."

Jereth could hear the smile in the Seer's voice, though it did not reach the ever-passive face. He had long become used to the ways of the Seer, variably distant and then close in the complex dance of the Path and eldar culture in general.

The journey to the transport node within the <place of the young>'men and, from there through the transit tubes that were scattered throughout the honeycomb structure of the craftworld to the White Library, was thankfully brief. Although Jereth had been to the White Library a number of times in hs youth this time things seemed different. It was almost as if this simple event was equivalent to the rite of passage to determine both Clan and Path that he would soon go through.

As with many that were dedicated to a single function, the Dome of the White Library consisted of numerous buildings scattered throughout forest and parkland. It was both wild and organised, with muddy woodland trails being found just as much the gravelled pathways around ornate gardens. The juxtaposition of the natural order and the imposition of the naturalised styles of the eldar was an irony that many found pleasing.

The Seer took Jereth into a pyramidal building, one of the main archive centres that was reserved for those that had the interest, often the walkers upon the Paths of the Seeker or the Steward. Rarer still did those of the Warrior or the Seer enter the White Library. As they entered the building Jereth was struck by the silence. He had imagined that such a place would be a hive of activity, and the silence did much to reinforce the teachings of the Seers that theirs was a dying race. Fleetingly he felt that if it were in his destiny he would fight against such an injustice, yet th truth was that the only way to escape the predations of the Great Enemy and Slaanesh also reuced the fecundity of the people.

Various pieces of artwork were positioned as if by random throughout the library, seats seemingly extruded out of the substance of the floor before them. He knew without being told that there was a logic to the organisation of the both art and seats, so that the observer might glean some information from the mind of the artist upon the quest for knowledge. As he moved past the artwork it was also obvious that how one moved around the library would also alter the message that the provided and so in represente the ultimate truth of knowledge and the quest for it.

The Seer motioned for Jereth to sit in one of the chairs, taking up a position behind him. "There are many methods by which one can interact with the Infinity Circuit. Each of these chairs, as with control stations aboard Wraithships, have a psychic interface field which can detect your thoughts. You have already interacted with the outer reaches of the Infinity Circuit using crystal slates. A thought will activate the data slates that surround the chair."

Jereth requested the activtion of the data slates and, as he did so, individual black crystal slabs from the floor rose up on anti-grav fields, their surfaces coming alive with reactive displays. Although the eldar had the technology to represent any information holograhically or pscyho-holographically, Jereth knew that many people felt that tactile contact with the information, or at least a representation of that information, was prferable than the ephemeral projected images.

Offline Kage2020

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Re: Beyond this point lies a realm of magic...?
« Reply #3 on: January 8, 2005, 03:14:20 PM »
Quote
With a gesture of his hand, runes shimmered into existence around the Seer taking up complex orbits around his body. Studying the runes he realised that they were not only representative of program avatars that the Seer was familiar with, but also the extent to which the Seer had developed their abilities. As they passed within his field of view he reached out and touched two runes. Between Jereth and the Seer a rotating image of one of the great heartwoods appeared. At first glance it appeared primeval, untouched by the psycomorphic abilities of the eldar as most heartwoods were in some way. As he looked closer a structure became apparent, with the branches arrayed in distinct heights from the single, mighty trunk. Between the roots, lights could be seen flickering around, as if the roots themselves moved in accordance to the whim of an invisible wind.

"This is how we choose to represent the Infinity Circuit," the Seer mentioned. "While there is an objective reality - a truth, if you will - behind the image and it is possible to represent it in such a fashion."

Once again the Seer reached out to a rune and the tree image shifted into a form of vector diagram swirling with different colours. What had been the roots became a dizzying array of image and text decribing the nature of the input/output devices an terminals that they represented. Pulses of light, again assoiciated with a textual information field, moved along the links to server nodes and Jereth knew that these were a combination of program avatars and the rarer true avatars. Rarer still he saw the shifting information field representing one of the ancestors shifting through the array for some unknown purpose. He followed one such field as it translated from the lower array to the dense lattice of light at the centre of the image. As it shifted from one field to another Jereth became disorientated. Suddenly the spirit fluttered even higher, though never approaching the information field at the top of the structure.

The image altered back to that of the tree, though this time Jereth could see vague shadows of the translation of energy and data lattices. "Thus you see that the image is easier to understand in some terms than the reality. As you know this preference for obfuscation perpetuates through all aspects of our culture. Thus we have the allegorical dances of the Harlequins, the legendary representation of our history, and so forth. In most cases the 'objective' information is usually available, and indeed many in this very building study such concepts. For the majority of the eldar, however, representation is sufficient for understanding the deeper significance. It is as innate and natural to us as breathing."

Pausing while Jereth considered the information, the Seer once again manipulated the image so that it seemed to swoop in closer to the roots. "As you may have understood already - again, that is the strength of such representation - the roots represent the lowest part in the hierarchal relationships that determine the overall Infinity Circuit. Each root represents a significant input/ouput terminal or a sub-node for a given area, the extent of the roots themselves being analogous to the physical reaity of the craftworld itself. The lights that surround it are lesser devices used to exchange information: smaller computers, communicators and so forth. Those roots that extend beyond the main root volume are representative of sub-nodes at a distance from the craftworld, with communication maintained by the Webway itself. I've always felt that this is where the image becomes less powerful since it does not represent the true hierarchal relationsip, but that is for others more versed in the complexity of the Infinity Circuit to discuss."

"The importance of an individual sub-node can be determined through the relative position along the root structure. As you can see," the Seer said point to a specific node, "there are a number of nodes beneath our own position in the Infinity Circuit."

Jereth looked closely that information field associated with the icon representing their position, noting that three avatars were present: his, the Seers and one other.

"Who is the third avatar present within this node?" Jereth asked.

"You have a quick mind and quick eyes, Jereth. The other avatar is your teah-shih. It is customary for them to be present at the initiation of a young mind into the Infinity Circuit. They will remain hidden until such a time as we begin our journey into the Infinity Circuit proper. Then they will be our true guide, for it is unwise to trespass in the branches of the Infinity Circuit without a spirit guide. Even Spirit Seers and those that regularly commune with the Ancestors do so with their teah-shih as a guide."

Jereth smiled at the thought of his teah-shih, Taliana, whose humour and support had guided him through his early childhood and whom he considered to be a true friend despite the differences in their incarnation.

"Above the root-lands is the dense grid of the craftworld's data cores, represented by the trunk of the tree. As with a tree, these cores are divided into a distinct hierarchy, with the importance of the system increasing as one approaches the heart of the tree itself. The nature of the Infinity Circuit also imposes a further hierarchy between the mundane computational qualities and the more esoteric aspects which make it so important for the survival of the eldar."

"Beyond those are the realm of the Ancestors. On the lowest of branches is the access node for the higher realms, an undifferentiated space that is also the location at which the Ancestor Council meets. From that place it possible to 'see' some of the other virtual realms that the Ancestors inhabit since they share both a symbolic and actual link with the greater majority."

"You mentioned communication through the Webway in the root-lands, but what of interconnectivity of the great branches?" Jereth asked, his voice tentative. "Just as the roots of the heartwoods in the seorsa'men intertwine, so to do the branches."

"Again, you have a quick mind, young Jereth, and that is the failure of the image that I mentioned earlier. Perhaps your Naming ceremony will come quicker than I had expected. You are perhaps ready for adoption of Clan, Path and Line. If it is not overly presumptuous, have you given much thought to which of the Paths you will take?

Offline Kage2020

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Re: Beyond this point lies a realm of magic...?
« Reply #4 on: January 8, 2005, 03:16:43 PM »
Quote
For the first time Jereth heard the polite interest of an equal in the voice of the Seer. He felt the stirrings of pride but, as he had been taught, moved that behind the barrier in his mind against such things.

"I had given thought to walking the Path of the Seeker."

The Seer seemed to ponder this. "A good choice, though I would imagine that many of the Ways on the Path of the Steward would also suit your apparent inclinations... Though it is rare for the young to go so swiftly into such a Path, for often they are subconsciously enamoured of the quick and brash sensations that dominate the Warrior. It pleases me that you did not mention the sanguine journey."

Again there was the sensation or pride Never before had so much praise come so quickly from his long-time mentor. In his he could see the logic of the <Guardians of the Young> maintaining their identity a closely guarded secret from their charges. It was difficult to have any form of close emomtional bond to such an individual, even more so when Jereth was only fairly certain that the Seer i front o

"Yes," the Seer continued, "I think the Naming will be soon. I shall forward you to the Ancestors so that they might decide upon your worth. I feel no small measure of pride in the distance you have travelled since those earlier turnings." Quickly glancing back to Jereth and looking him up and down, the Seer contined. "And, if I am not too old that my eyes fail me, I would not be surprised if you take the Clan ceremony with the Phoenix."

Jereth glanced down at his own form, for the first time realising that if he looked deeper than the outside representation of his avatar he could see that it was as if his limbs were feathered with flames.

"That is the other truth about this place. Your subconcious and conscious minds both provide the form that your avatar wears. Information that has not yet passed the barrier of the n'at amin can be represented here for those that have the eyes to see. Someone that presents themselves in front of the Ancestors does so with their soul bared, and that is not always the most pleasant of experiences."

"If it is the presentation of the both the subconscious and conscious minds, then there must be a way for the avatar to be consciously altered," Jereth commented, his voice thoughtful.

"Indeed there is, Jereth. Some eldar have stronger natural gifts in interacting with the realms of the Infinity Circuit just as those that tread the Path of the Seer may alter the flow of energies. There are also programmed costructs which allow the alteration of ones avatar, as indeed you have experienced with your creche siblings in the whimsical fantasies of your youth."

Jerenth realised that it was amongst the first times that he had heard the Seer mention him by given name and it was his time to feel the first glimmer of pride in his accomplishments. "It is time," said the Seer, interrupting Jereth's thoughts.

In front of Jereth the air-that-was-not-air shimmered and the image of Taliana resolved itself. Her avatar was swathed in the dark blue runes marked with limited two-dimensional runic representations of the Clans, the Path and the various races of the eldar. Jereth had know her for his entire conscious life, her humour so unlike the somber temperament of most of the eldar a constant balm even in the most difficult times. For once, though, her voice was calm and measured, modulated in the tone reserved for official address. "I have come," she said, "in the way that was laid down at the time of sundering, when our People fell from the arrogant pedestal that they had raised for themselves. I am to act as guide through these realms of spirit and stone, of the esoteric and the mundane, if that is your wish."

"It is our wish," replied the Seer.

"And mine also," replied Jereth. "I wish to see the heritage bequested to me by ur ancestors so that I might venture forth into the material universe with full knowledge of who I am and what our people have wrought, both the good and the bad."

The Seer looked sharply at Jereth but did not comment, though he could feel any icy emotion that was both approval and something that he had ot felt before.

"So be it," Taliana answered. "Mar a bha, mar a tha, mar a bhitheas a bragh go. As tradition dictates, the follower of the men'tel<guardian of the young> will continue with the initiation until we reach the lower branches of the Spirit Tree. From there only an Ancestor may guide and you must not deviate from the path that is set for you. To do so is to be lost in the maelstrom of the craftworld consciousness."

Time seemed to blend into itself as the Seer and Taliana guided him through the lower levels of the Infinity Circuit.

Please forgive the multiple postings...

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Re: Beyond this point lies a realm of magic...?
« Reply #5 on: January 8, 2005, 05:19:47 PM »
The question must be asked... from who's perspective are we asking the question?

Remember that "magic" is a label we can apply to many things... for example, being able to control a roaring beast of metal and glass... being able to make yourself seen by people on the other side of the world... being able to illuminate a room with a mere clap of your hands... these things are magic.

...hang on, they're not magic! The first one's just driving a car. The second is a TV, or a PC with a Webcam, and the third is someone with a clapper on his lights... but to someone in medievil times, these things would indeed be "magic".

So I think we should first ask "is magic simply something we cannot understand and/or explain by our current understanding of physical laws?" If yes, then we must also consider who were are taking as our "observer". After all, the Eldar seem to have perfect understanding of their powers (or as perfect as you can get!) whilst the Tau seem oblivious to the gift of the Psyker...



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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Beyond this point lies a realm of magic...?
« Reply #6 on: January 8, 2005, 05:24:09 PM »
I didn't feel that it was necessary to make that stipulation since the goal was to discuss something fairly objectively, and not steep ourselves in the same confusions that plague the 'fluff'.  So we're talking abstractly, not from any particularly standpoint.

Sorry, thought that was fairly obviously and didn't require the Clarke quote... ;)

But now that it is said, hopefully if anyone else replies to this one we won't go through that again... :D

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Offline Larandil

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Re: Beyond this point lies a realm of magic...?
« Reply #7 on: January 8, 2005, 05:43:57 PM »
It is understood from a reading of the 'fluff' that eldar technology can, or may, have two separate 'sides' that are pretty much integrated in the minds of the eldar.  Broadly speaking these are:

  • Technology, or physical science or whatever.  We know that eldar recreate technology that is understandeable and replicatable by 'other' races (i.e. humans) thereby suggesting that it is bound by the laws of physical reality.
  • Psychic engineering or magic by another name!
But at what point does technology give way to psychic engineering?  Could one, for example, say that a given set of artefacts are technological whie others are produced by psychic engineering? 

For me, that thin red line lies between pieces of equipment that can be used by anyone and artefacts that are attuned to (or are powered by) specific individuals.

For examples from fluff material, consider the generic rune armour and Singing Spear compared to the special suit and spear used by Iliana Arienal or the late Eldrad Ulthran's staff. Or the set of runes that help warlocks work their "magic".

Or the Exarch armour: Soulstones serving as reservoirs for the experience of former Exarchs are "magic" according to Arthur C. Clarke's word that "technology, if sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic." Yet every Eldar can learn - and is expected to learn! - how to store his Self within such a jewel. The acting Exarch tapping into this collective, possibly merging with it - that is true magic, and the Phoenix Kings are at the end of that road ...
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Re: Beyond this point lies a realm of magic...?
« Reply #8 on: January 8, 2005, 06:47:15 PM »
Well... Warhammer 40k is magic guns and power armor +2 anyways. It's rather hard to follow what you mean.

The eldar do not consider psychic engineering 'magic', it's just another ability of theirs for manipulating the world around them.

Runes that enhance psychic power, that's technology the eldar have which manipulates psychic energy.
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Re: Beyond this point lies a realm of magic...?
« Reply #9 on: January 9, 2005, 10:34:43 AM »
The hardest thing about trying to discuss something that is generally not discussed, more specifically when it pertains to breaking the 40k universe into categories, is explaining what you're after in a way that makes sense... "In the grim, dark future there is only imprecise statement." ;)

Alright, a quick bit of further explanation as the replies reveal some confusion, both with what I'm getting at and also seemingly the nature of the material itself.  So, quick definition: Anything that derives its power from the warp is inherently 'psychic' and, for all intents and purposes, 'magical'.  Both technology (i.e. 'real world' physics, chemistry, materials science, etc.) and 'magic' (psychic powers, etc.) are viewed from an over-arching perspective such that the representation of said 'things' is not subject to Clarkism (e.g. "...so advanced that it appears to be magic...").

Quote from: Larandil
For me, that thin red line lies between pieces of equipment that can be used by anyone and artefacts that are attuned to (or are powered by) specific individuals.
Why does the simple ascription as the artefact of an individual make that artefact magical?  As above, if it channels warp energy it is essentially magical, whether this is couched in terms of 'science' ('vortex grenades') or 'magic' ("incandescent bolt of psychic energy").

Quote from: Larandil
Or the set of runes that help warlocks work their "magic".
The runes are a perfect example of the blend of 'magic' and technology which is peculiar to the eldar, true.  Depending on which version of the concept of wraithbone you prefer the actual material itself may be a technological construction...

And as an aside that isn't really an aside, wraithbone is itself something that may potentially straddle both lines.  The original version of wraithbone was a 'psychoplastic', the literal translation being plastically malleable psychic energy that was conjured forth out of the warp.  Later 'fluff' (i.e. the Tzeentchian daemon trying to create matter) indicates that this might be flawed, though not in assumption just realisation and consideration with the balance of the 'fluff'.  There is also the later version which may indicate that it was more to do with a 'psychically reactive plastic' (here possibly a reference to a hydrocarbon)... This latter version is what I prefer since it blends 'magic' and technology, rather than the fact that the eldar conjure up matter and energy from the aether.  (E.g. for wraithbone that is used for 'power generation', the ability is 'conjured' into the material through psychic manipulation rather than the material itself being conjured.  Instead of being created it is patterned.)

Quote from: Larandil
Or the Exarch armour: Soulstones serving as reservoirs for the experience of former Exarchs are "magic" according to Arthur C. Clarke's word that "technology, if sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic."
Although for the purpose of the thread that is self-defeating.  It's like talking about eldar psychology and then saying that the eldar are "too mysterious" and therefore cannot be discussed! ;)

Quote from: Larandil
Yet every Eldar can learn - and is expected to learn! - how to store his Self within such a jewel.
That would imply that the Waystone is a magical artefact pure and simple.  But the Waystone does more than store the soul (read psychic energy), it also stores the memories and experiences of the eldar in question.  That is something that might be more akin to the 'ghost computers' or 'SQUIDS' (whatever) of sci-fi literature.  Thus the Waystone acts doubly as a complex computer (!) and a 'Soul Jar'... ?

Quote from: Larandil
The acting Exarch tapping into this collective, possibly merging with it - that is true magic, and the Phoenix Kings are at the end of that road ...
Why?  One can say that it is in essence like the sci-fi premise (well, cyberpunk) of the 'skillsoft' whereby information is recorded and used to manipulate the nervous system of the wearer.  Yes, super advanced technology but if one assumes that some of the other eldar 'technology' has both a technological and 'magic' side of things entirely within the bounds of plausibility...

Quote from: TheMightyPikachu
Well... Warhammer 40k is magic guns and power armor +2 anyways.
That is an interpretation, not the interpretation.  It is difficult to ascribe any 'correct' intepretation to the 40k universe.  While, as above, it is becoming increasingly obvious that GW is no longer interested in their game being 'sci-fantasy', I try and keep that original essence.  I've already got a "40kFantasy"  game on the drawing boards so I don't need for them to make their own game a bastardised version of the same. ;)

Quote from: TheMightyPikachu
The eldar do not consider psychic engineering 'magic', it's just another ability of theirs for manipulating the world around them.
Yes, I know that but in terms of categorisation and representation without the obfuscation of racial interpretation one can divided their 'technology' into both mundane and psychic components.

Kage
« Last Edit: January 9, 2005, 01:21:25 PM by Kage2020 »

 


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