Topic: Eldar law enforcement...

[Lomendil]

DE 'crime' would be whatever offends the local Archon, as Dark Eldar 'law' is whatever the local Archon decrees it to be. The closest thing to DE 'cops' would be the personal retinues and spies of the Lords who stand to gain from unearthing plots and transgressions against their master. 

I think that crime would be so rare on Craftworlds that there would be no standing law enforcement - transgressors would be brought to justice by their peers. I suspect that there would be some kind of formal 'court' analogue headed by high ranking Eldar of one sort or another, though possibly this would not happen and the criminal would instead immediately be taken into care and examined by 'psykiatrists' (Healers specializing in the mind and soul) to find the cause of their behaviour. If it was possible to rehabilitate them, the criminal would be offered this. If he refused, or was beyond rehabilitation for some reason, he'd be expelled from the Craftworld, or possibly incarcarated in a place in the Craftworld away from all the other inhabitants. All very Lefty stuff really. 

[Kage2020]

This shows that there are those who the craftworld may find dissedents and they can be judged in some manner.

Yet this does not need Judges.  It just needs people that judge and question.

Individuals can support society or try to destroy that society.

Yet the eldar who have disruptive inclinations are also those individuals that tend to remove themselves from that society.  Plus, one has to question the entire process of socialisation.  As pointed out the eldar are a psychic race and have been for a huge chunk of their evolution.  One would imagine that they use it.  One would imagine that the craftworld eldar would use it given thir somewhat tenuous position as standing on the cusp of a hill, as it were: look to your left and you've got the downslide to hell and the dark eldar; look to your right you've got the contentious and boorish Exodites...

Although some eldar may fall to greed...

Why?  What can eldar want for given their technology?

pride..

That's the entire race, surely?

or a power of chaos and in turn try to harm the eldar community.

The eldar are protected from Chaos in a number of ways.  Indeed, you mention one later, i.e. the warp spiders.

Thus there are dangers that threaten the craftworld and its occupants.

There are many dangers, though not quite as many as players of the wargame would like to think with all the battles they play out between the eldar and... whomever.

Someone or something must enforce order and hunt those eldar that have turned on their community.

Isn't that humanocentric?  The assumption that the eldar must have the same broad system as humans?

No doubt a farseer leads this council.

Even if we were to consider a humanocentric approach, why would an individual whose very existence is caught up with the idea of the threads of future potential be bothered with precedent and the present? 

Farseers are those 'catch all' concepts that people tag with leadership and power over everything, but so many times one must question whether the concept of the Path is brought into consideration...?

Say one Guardian thinks another Guardian has robbed him...

What possible reason has the first Guardian got to rob the other Guardian?  (And remember that while all eldar are technically Guardians, I'm sure you're allowed to call them 'eldar' without referencing the wargame! )  Is the artefact valuable?  What would the eldar find valuable other than their own personal development that they couldn't get through other avenues given their technology? 

Consider the case of the commandment.  God says "Thou Shalt Not Steal" and, lo and behold (for the most part), people don't steal.  (Erm, this is just an example.  I am in no way advocating Christianity and, indeed, find organised religion to be 'not for me'.  Go personal faith!)  Why cannot eldar society say, for the example, "Eldar do not steal from eldar"? 

Why must eldar be human?

DE crime? It'd happen. A lot, IMO.

Is the killing of another being a crime to the DE?

...to find the cause of their behaviour.

One must question whether the eldar were not significantly, and perhaps continually, socialised during childhood and early adulthood...

Kage

[Lomendil]

Is the killing of another being a crime to the DE?

Only if it were a favoured advisor or concubine of their Lord, or some such. They wouldn't consider it morally wrong of course, any more than we really care whether it's wrong to double-park or not.

One must question whether the eldar were not significantly, and perhaps continually, socialised during childhood and early adulthood...

Could be Outcasts returning from a-jaunting around the galaxy, heads filled with cynicism and ingrained habits picked up in seedy frontier worlds.

Or perhaps they just pick it up from violent holo-games. Grand Theft Falcon: Gothic Sector is said to be shockingly gruesome.

[Larandil]

Although some eldar may fall to greed...

Why?  What can eldar want for given their technology?

Say one Guardian thinks another Guardian has robbed him...

What possible reason has the first Guardian got to rob the other Guardian?  (And remember that while all eldar are technically Guardians, I'm sure you're allowed to call them 'eldar' without referencing the wargame! )  Is the artefact valuable?  What would the eldar find valuable other than their own personal development that they couldn't get through other avenues given their technology? 

Consider the case of the commandment.  God says "Thou Shalt Not Steal" and, lo and behold (for the most part), people don't steal.  (Erm, this is just an example.  I am in no way advocating Christianity and, indeed, find organised religion to be 'not for me'.  Go personal faith!)  Why cannot eldar society say, for the example, "Eldar do not steal from eldar"? 

Why must eldar be human?

Kage

Straight from the dusty shelves ... and I know, "Elves aren't Eldar!", but this piece was done for WHFB Elves waay back in WD 92. Brief excerpts on the psychology of elves.

Elves do not generally value wealth. The Elvenfolk do not use money in their own society, nor do they hoard goods. If an Elf has an object of beauty, anyone is free to look at it. Elves have little use for privacy; another Elf who discovers something about one of his fellows will probably soon forget it. Besides, there are few things which are taboo amongst Elves and thus need to be hidden away.

Elves do enjoy giving presents. If one Elf visits another to admire a beautiful object, it is not very surprising for the host to give it away. He may have had it for some months and all his friends have seen it several times - often enough to appreciate its subtleties. If they wish to see it again they can call it up in their memories. If they don't choose to remember it, then it wasn't very good in their eyes anyway and they probably wouldn't waste time looking at it again.

Really beautiful gifts won't be given to adventurer-Elves. The item might be at risk from non-Elves. Furthermore, adventurers are often considered to be going through their "vulgar stage", and consequently they lack the refinement to truly appreciate the gift.

Often, weeks or months of work may go into a present which lasts only a few hours or minutes. A specially grown fruit, carefully shaped (by binding it as it grows) and coloured (by intricate variations of light stencils as it ripens), into a resemblance of the recipient may take weeks of work. It could then be the centrepiece of a surprise party at which the fruit is promptly eaten. The long weeks of work are rewarded, in the eyes of the Elven giver, by the reaction of the recipient as the surprise is revealed.

Incidentally, this is the only reason for an Elf wanting to have some privacy. Other Elves, for example, may be asked to avoid a certain corner of the fruit orchard while the surprise is being prepared. They will respect such requests for the greater impact when the surprise is revealed.

Because they do not value wealth for its own sake, there are few Elven thieves. Most of the Elves who do enter the profession usually do so because it's fun. they are doing it for the adrenalin "buzz", rather than the profits they can make.

There's more about controlling one's dreams and editing the short and long term memory to throw out what is considered unimportant or undesirable. Something quite useful when coupled with an eidetic memory.

Is that mindset alien enough?

   

[SkavenGuard]

This shows that there are those who the craftworld may find dissedents and they can be judged in some manner.

Yet this does not need Judges.  It just needs people that judge and question.

Individuals can support society or try to destroy that society.

Yet the eldar who have disruptive inclinations are also those individuals that tend to remove themselves from that society.  Plus, one has to question the entire process of socialisation.  As pointed out the eldar are a psychic race and have been for a huge chunk of their evolution.  One would imagine that they use it.  One would imagine that the craftworld eldar would use it given thir somewhat tenuous position as standing on the cusp of a hill, as it were: look to your left and you've got the downslide to hell and the dark eldar; look to your right you've got the contentious and boorish Exodites...

Why is it so hard to believe that some craftworld eldar may be act unlawfully.  Exodites and dark eldar are the same race as the craftworlder.  The craftworlders have a different society and laws compared to these other eldar.  The dark eldar for example are violent and disruptive.  So why could not a few craftworlders have the same tendancies as a dark eldar?  Can not an eldar fall from their path? True most craftworld eldar that exihibt a dislike of their society take the path of outcast and leave, but perhaps there are some small few that don't reallize they should leave.

Although some eldar may fall to greed...

Why?  What can eldar want for given their technology?

pride..

That's the entire race, surely?

We live in a technology advance society, and people here are capable of greed.  Greed could manifest itself in the desire to horde.  Greed could be the desire for more money, political power, food, gadgets, or reputation. It does not mater what someone has a person can still want more.
As for pride, sure the entire race has pride.  They have pride in the racial identity, much  like we have patriotic pride. The eldar have the feeling of supreriority over other races, which is pride again.  But there are different levels of pride.  And some levels can be self destructive.  Thus the saying pride comes before a fall.  Again going back to the story of the Doom of the eldar (tyranid invade Inyadd(sp?)) Yriel shows that his pride blinds him to the wishes of his own craftworld.

or a power of chaos and in turn try to harm the eldar community.

The eldar are protected from Chaos in a number of ways.  Indeed, you mention one later, i.e. the warp spiders.

Thus there are dangers that threaten the craftworld and its occupants.

There are many dangers, though not quite as many as players of the wargame would like to think with all the battles they play out between the eldar and... whomever.

There are dangers that threaten a craftworld.  The eldar are under threat just like the human Empire.  Threats vary in size and danger. Some would require a police force of some type to guard against.  Now perhaps there different safe guards that make up the police system, but the individual parts do not look like a police system like the warp spiders.

Someone or something must enforce order and hunt those eldar that have turned on their community.

Isn't that humanocentric?  The assumption that the eldar must have the same broad system as humans?

Tell me what other intelligient race out there has a community?  Look at the variety of cultures on earth and you will find similarities and differences.  Besides if you simply say the eldar are so alien that humans can't understand, then no human will understand eldar culture.  Understanding can be reached by making comparissons.

No doubt a farseer leads this council.

Even if we were to consider a humanocentric approach, why would an individual whose very existence is caught up with the idea of the threads of future potential be bothered with precedent and the present? 

Farseers are those 'catch all' concepts that people tag with leadership and power over everything, but so many times one must question whether the concept of the Path is brought into consideration...?

farseers are the leaders of the eldar craftworlds.  The act almost like a priest class or theocracy.  why would they not participate in important events of the craftworld.  The assumption is that crime on the craftworld is small, thus it would be a major event.

Say one Guardian thinks another Guardian has robbed him...

What possible reason has the first Guardian got to rob the other Guardian?  (And remember that while all eldar are technically Guardians, I'm sure you're allowed to call them 'eldar' without referencing the wargame! )  Is the artefact valuable?  What would the eldar find valuable other than their own personal development that they couldn't get through other avenues given their technology? 

Consider the case of the commandment.  God says "Thou Shalt Not Steal" and, lo and behold (for the most part), people don't steal.  (Erm, this is just an example.  I am in no way advocating Christianity and, indeed, find organised religion to be 'not for me'.  Go personal faith!)  Why cannot eldar society say, for the example, "Eldar do not steal from eldar"? 

Why must eldar be human?

Despite all the racial pride, psyche community and such, eldar are still individuals.  Each individual can make their own choice.  Most will choose not to harm their community.  Some may inadvertenly harm their community by their choices.  Some rare few will choose to harm their community.  as such their is need to defend against these eldar.  It must be done some how.
I want to say more, but I'm running out of time.

[Kage2020]

Why is it so hard to believe that some craftworld eldar may be act unlawfully.

You mistake me.  I assume that they do, but I also assume that - for the most part - eldar society tends towards extreme homeostasis such that the 'random element' will remove themselves.  In extreme cases other situations exist in which case a more standard and humanocentric approach of 'judges' would be utilised.

So why could not a few craftworlders have the same tendancies as a dark eldar?

Square hole, round peg.  The individual would simply remove themsevles from society or be removed.  The latter does not, however, need a standing army, militia or even 'judges' outside of those that are validated by the social system.

That's the entire race, surely?

I didn't say that.  But the mention of 'greed' is usually placed outside of a context.  Eldar technology allows the production of almost any good.  What is there to be greedy about (again)?

We live in a technology advance society, and people here are capable of greed.

I would strongly argue that there is little comparison between modern (real life) society and the eldar.  I'm not talking the typical bludgeon that people use, i.e. "the eldar are unknoweable" but rather that there is a huge difference between eldar technology and modern technology.  Huge differences.  And even then that doesn't take into account society/culture.  (Of course, that is another big bludgeon... )

Greed could manifest itself in the desire to horde.  Greed could be the desire for more money, political power, food, gadgets, or reputation.

All of which are fairly inconsequential, at least for me.

As for pride, sure the entire race has pride.

Yes, that's why I said it.

The eldar are under threat just like the human Empire... Some would require a police force of some type to guard against.

These are...?

Tell me what other intelligient race out there has a community?

It is more the assumption that it must be the same and experience things in the same way, rather than the potential of caricature.  Let's just face it, the humans of the 40k universe are, for the most part, as alien as many of the other alien races.

Look at the variety of cultures on earth and you will find similarities and differences.

<grin> Yes, I know.

farseers are the leaders of the eldar craftworlds.  The act almost like a priest class or theocracy.  why would they not participate in important events of the craftworld. 

That is a huge, and for me incorrect, assumption.  Admittedly they are often represented as such, but then one has to consider the source and 'bias' of the material that you get this from.  Not only do you have a wargame, but GW writing has never been overtly complex.

The assumption is that crime on the craftworld is small, thus it would be a major event.

And the assumption there is that all crime is major due to rarity.  Since the analogy was made above, one has to question whether GBH or 'crank calls' is considered more or less serious because of rarity when compared against, say, murder?

Kage

[Thrawn.]

Damn - guess my post didn't get through..

Anywho, before the big quote war, I stated that in the Codex: Craftworld Eldar, the Eldar of Saim-Hann have been known to duke it out if you will until first blood. Why wouldn't similar, though slightly more reserved practices appear across the different Craftworlds? I never imagined the need for police as the above contest would solve it.

[SkavenGuard]

Why is it so hard to believe that some craftworld eldar may be act unlawfully.

You mistake me.  I assume that they do, but I also assume that - for the most part - eldar society tends towards extreme homeostasis such that the 'random element' will remove themselves.  In extreme cases other situations exist in which case a more standard and humanocentric approach of 'judges' would be utilised.

So you would admit that there is some sort of law enforcement within the eldar society.

So why could not a few craftworlders have the same tendancies as a dark eldar?

Square hole, round peg.  The individual would simply remove themsevles from society or be removed.  The latter does not, however, need a standing army, militia or even 'judges' outside of those that are validated by the social system.

What is the square hole round peg bit about.  I was offering an example of why an eldar citizen would be come an unlawful element in the craftworld.  With that said... Some eldar that exihibit unsocial behaviour would leave the craftworld to become outcast.  But those that do not voluntary leave, what do the eldar do with them?  Some how these anti social eldar must be dealt with.  There must be some sort of eldar organization to deal with this.

That's the entire race, surely?

I didn't say that.  But the mention of 'greed' is usually placed outside of a context.  Eldar technology allows the production of almost any good.  What is there to be greedy about (again)?

Yes you did say that.  Although you said that about the my arguement about the pride of eldar and not the greet.
Okay this is a picky point.  Hahahaaaa Reality Ninja strikes again.... Don't ask :p

We live in a technology advance society, and people here are capable of greed.

I would strongly argue that there is little comparison between modern (real life) society and the eldar.  I'm not talking the typical bludgeon that people use, i.e. "the eldar are unknoweable" but rather that there is a huge difference between eldar technology and modern technology.  Huge differences.  And even then that doesn't take into account society/culture.  (Of course, that is another big bludgeon... )

Sure there are differences between eldar technology and human technology (whether today or 40k universe).  Just because there are all kinds of funky gadgets available does not cancel out a persons desire for property.  The technology that the eldar have must make them content, but in any society there are malcontents.

Greed could manifest itself in the desire to horde.  Greed could be the desire for more money, political power, food, gadgets, or reputation.

All of which are fairly inconsequential, at least for me.

  I believe that eldar are capable of greed.  Okay perhaps material gain is not much of desire for the eldar (despite what I said above).  But eldar can and do have desire for political power and reputation.  Do not dismiss this type of greed so easily.  But again this was just a possible cause of an eldar acting unlawfully.

As for pride, sure the entire race has pride.

Yes, that's why I said it.

you said it agian....

The eldar are under threat just like the human Empire... Some would require a police force of some type to guard against.

These are...?

Orks, other eldar, dark eldar, Thousand sons spacemarines, Slaanesh, the Empire, tyranids, necrons, to name a few.
Granted orks and tyranids probably would not try any espianog type stuff.  Humans have been know to visit craftworlds; although very few have.  The thousand sons are looking for entrances to the black library which is in the web way and all craftworlds have webways. Necrons have an old hatred of the eldar, and some necron have been know to infiltrate enemy bases before attacking (Ctan, flayed ones).  Do I really need to explain the threat of Slaannesh?  Not all the eldar craftworlds agree with each other.  Eldar vs eldar combat is not unkown.

Most sane eldar would stay away from Slaanesh and any thing related to slaanessh.  But what if  Slaanesh tricked an eldar?  What if Slaanesh secretly convinced an eldar to do something bad?  After all slannesh is very convincing.

Tell me what other intelligient race out there has a community?

It is more the assumption that it must be the same and experience things in the same way, rather than the potential of caricature.  Let's just face it, the humans of the 40k universe are, for the most part, as alien as many of the other alien races.

farseers are the leaders of the eldar craftworlds.  The act almost like a priest class or theocracy.  why would they not participate in important events of the craftworld. 

That is a huge, and for me incorrect, assumption.  Admittedly they are often represented as such, but then one has to consider the source and 'bias' of the material that you get this from.  Not only do you have a wargame, but GW writing has never been overtly complex.

What is wrong with the source (which is GW)?  Is there another source?  I was reading the 2nd edition codex... One of many of the eldar paths is that of the Seer or witch path.  There are several witch paths much like there are more than one warrior path.  Some Seers try to divine the future, some seers deal with the spirit of the dead, some seers manipulate the physical world (I'm guess these are bone singers).  Warlocks are those that take the witch path that speciallize in combat.  Farseers are those who are trapped in the witch path.  The farseers guide the craftworld and guide the eldar armies on the battlefield.  Base on the various stories like the Doom of the Eldar, it would seem that the Farseers are the leaders of the craftworlds.  Perhaps Farseers are not the suppreme leaders of the craftworlds, but they are important parts of the government/leadership of the craftworlds.  Farseers look into the past and future to make decisions in the present.  Although in the current codex GW doesn't talk much about eldar paths.

The assumption is that crime on the craftworld is small, thus it would be a major event.

And the assumption there is that all crime is major due to rarity.  Since the analogy was made above, one has to question whether GBH or 'crank calls' is considered more or less serious because of rarity when compared against, say, murder?
Kage

Ring, Ring!
Hello Eldrad,  is your falcon running?
Yes, then you better go catch it! HAHAHA
Click.
My assumption is that serious crimes are rare. Crimes like murder, treason, taking the wave serpent for a joy ride, leading eldar into battle when the council of the craftworld says no...
 

Either way my point is that the eldar do have some unlawful characters.  There must be some sort of system to protect the eldar craftworld from this danger.  If I'm not mistake, you have implied that there can be unlawful eldar.  Thus back to the original question, what would eldar law enforcement be like.  I agree they would not have police officer path or judge path.  There must be something thou.  Some how I see that there is a council that would deal with this type of problem.  The council made up of seers and aspect warriors and others...

[Lomendil]

Either way my point is that the eldar do have some unlawful characters.  There must be some sort of system to protect the eldar craftworld from this danger.  If I'm not mistake, you have implied that there can be unlawful eldar.  Thus back to the original question, what would eldar law enforcement be like.  I agree they would not have police officer path or judge path.  There must be something thou.  Some how I see that there is a council that would deal with this type of problem.  The council made up of seers and aspect warriors and others...

I believe the point of dispute is not whether there is crime or not, but whether there is enough crime to warrant law enforcement.

I'm going to do That Which Is Forbidden, and compare a Craftworld society to a human society...

Well, kinda. I think the closest thing you'll find to a Craftworld society in real life would be a large religious retreat, a big Buddhist monastery for example. It is not exactly the same, this is a given, but close enough for my purposes. Both societies are composed of many individuals who all adhere strongly to a rigid way of life. Both stress duty to the society as a whole as well as to the personal improvement of the individual.

As far as I'm aware, Buddhist monasteries don't have police forces as a distinct group within the society. Head monks fufill that role. 'Crimes' could include gambling or carousing or other 'objectionable behaviour', punishment could be anything from extra chores to beatings with a stick, depending on how harsh the monastic regime was. 

The differences between the religious retreat and a Craftworld are important though. Religious retreats have rigid hierarchies with great deference to higher ranks required from lower ranks - I can't see this being the same for Eldar. Respect for high ranking individuals, certainly, but not formal obeisance. Craftworlds are also comprised of individuals who have always lived within their society, while religious retreats have many members who have come from more permissive backrounds. Hence the Craftworld society is all that most Eldar will have ever known, while many monks will have had a 'taste of the wild side' at some point in their lives, and some perhaps want another taste of the forbidden fruit.     

So given the pervasiveness of Eldar society on an individual, the fact that from birth it was the system they'd been raised in, you'd expect most of them to follow it's rules all the time. It's clear there are some who don't from the existence of Outcasts, and from that it's reasonable to infer that there are rare extreme cases where instead of just being misfits there are those who commit criminal acts. I think these would be rare though, and given that the religious retreats (who I say would have more transgressions) don't have law enforcement I don't think the Craftworld Eldar would either. At least, not specialised or formal. Criminals would probably be ordered to either come before a court of sorts/report for treatment, or leave the Craftworld forever. If they refused to comply, I imagine a co-opted group of their peers or Aspect Warriors would drag them to the court/treatment centre/Webway portal. Aspect Warriors or a 'posse' of Craftworlders would hunt down any violent and resisting criminals and capture them (or kill if need be), the Craftworld leaders would then decide what to do with the criminal. Exile, most likely, or perhaps treatment/benevolent incarceration.

Orks, other eldar, dark eldar, Thousand sons spacemarines, Slaanesh, the Empire, tyranids, necrons, to name a few.
Granted orks and tyranids probably would not try any espianog type stuff.  Humans have been know to visit craftworlds; although very few have.  The thousand sons are looking for entrances to the black library which is in the web way and all craftworlds have webways. Necrons have an old hatred of the eldar, and some necron have been know to infiltrate enemy bases before attacking (Ctan, flayed ones).  Do I really need to explain the threat of Slaannesh?  Not all the eldar craftworlds agree with each other.  Eldar vs eldar combat is not unkown.

All true - but law enforcement and Craftworld security are not necessarily the same thing. One is a civil function, the other is a military one. Infiltrating a Craftworld would be all but impossible, there are certainly security measures to detect and destroy unwelcome 'visitors', even in the highly unlikely event that they could find and get on board the Craftworld. Automated defences and sensors, the all-pervasive Infinity Circuit, plus Aspect Warriors.

Most sane eldar would stay away from Slaanesh and any thing related to slaanessh.  But what if  Slaanesh tricked an eldar?  What if Slaanesh secretly convinced an eldar to do something bad?  After all slannesh is very convincing.

Unlikely in the extreme. I can't even think of a viable way for this to happen without the other Craftworlders being alerted. Could (and indeed would) Slaanesh really reach out and 'speak' into the mind of an Eldar? Strikes me that the temptation of Chaos is usually passive rather than active, i.e individuals seek out Chaos rather than the other way around. Not always (Horus), but in general. In any case, direct communication from Slaanesh to an Eldar would almost certainly cause that Eldar to recoil in abject horror immediately, and even if they recovered (and dared) enough to listen further, souls in the Infinity Circuit or honed psykers would almost certainly detect it.

Damn - guess my post didn't get through..

Anywho, before the big quote war, I stated that in the Codex: Craftworld Eldar, the Eldar of Saim-Hann have been known to duke it out if you will until first blood. Why wouldn't similar, though slightly more reserved practices appear across the different Craftworlds? I never imagined the need for police as the above contest would solve it.

Saim-Hann are widely regarded as wild by other Craftworlds though, dangerously close to undisciplined pre-Fall days. It could be that the blood-duels are one of the reasons they have that reputation.

[Kage2020]

So you would admit that there is some sort of law enforcement within the eldar society.

You will note that I included a non-standard situation for extreme cases.  I was, however, arguing against the idea that you have eldar guardians roving the 'streets', or Warlocks reading the mind of everyone, etc.  Rather, eldar society was law and, for the most part, crime was negated by a tendency of 'criminals' to remove themselves from society (i.e. Outcasts).

Sure there are differences between eldar technology and human technology (whether today or 40k universe).  Just because there are all kinds of funky gadgets available does not cancel out a persons desire for property.

Property?  Real estate is cheap for the eldar and it doesn't even come into consideration.

The technology that the eldar have must make them content, but in any society there are malcontents.

Who tend to remove themselves: Outcasts.  Again we return to self-moderation for the most part.  Of course, if one were to concentrate on the extremes...

But eldar can and do have desire for political power and reputation.  Do not dismiss this type of greed so easily.

Does that mean that I shouldn't dismiss it because of the horrendously paltry 'fluff' which means that anything can go and, therefore, taking a stance on anything is a bad thing!?

Seriously, though, what is 'political power' or reputation to an eldar?  Again smacks of humanocentrism (anthropomorphism is, of course, inescapable at least in caricature).  If you take that superficial 'fluff' again, or rather what appears to be most peoples' interpretations of it, you have individuals who through a spiritual weakness become the leaders!?  Pardon?  Those individuals who are incapable of resisting the draw of a specific Path are put in charge... Erm, no.  I know you have the idea that those who do not want power are those best capable of dealing with it but that does tke the cake somewhat.

And reputation?  Why must eldar be glory hounds...?

Again, I'm not being sold by your concepts of crime...

Orks, other eldar, dark eldar, Thousand sons spacemarines, Slaanesh, the Empire, tyranids, necrons, to name a few.

That's called an army, not a police force.  Okay, that probably depends on which country you come from but generally speaking the military deal with external threats... But of course you know this.

Do I really need to explain the threat of Slaannesh?

LMAO.  No, you do not.  You really would be surprised how much I know about the eldar 'fluff' and, furthermore, not only the spirit behind it but many of the problems with it.

But what if  Slaanesh tricked an eldar?  What if Slaanesh secretly convinced an eldar to do something bad?  After all slannesh is very convincing.

The 'fluff' rather strongly suggests that such an eldar could not exist on a craftworld.  By default they are a 'criminal' that have separated themselves...

What is wrong with the source (which is GW)?

Just because it is GW doesn't make it "right", or at least correct.  Sure they've got the capability of canonising some of the... erm... more dubious material that they come out with, but that doesn't mean that it is consistent.  Thus with the concepts of Farseers, or at least for me.

Is there another source?

All the other 'fluff', including WD127 which was the souce for much of the material that they just copy and pasted into the codices... GW are nothing of not, erm, "efficient" with their writing skills.

Farseers are those who are trapped in the witch path.

Yes, that is true.  But most people seem not to appreciate what becoming trapped upon the Path truly entails, at least from a 'fluff' standpoint.

The farseers guide the craftworld and guide the eldar armies on the battlefield.

Craftworlds based most, if not all, of their political decisions upon the visions of the Farseers.  There is a wide gap between that and the Farseers actually leading the eldar of a craftworld, even though that might actually occur on some craftworlds (read: Ulthwe).

Perhaps Farseers are not the suppreme leaders of the craftworlds, but they are important parts of the government/leadership of the craftworlds.

On that you would not get my disagreement.  They are a part of government, not all of it.

Although in the current codex GW doesn't talk much about eldar paths.

Even the original and more developed WD article which was subsequently bastardised doesn't '"talk much about eldar paths".

If I'm not mistake, you have implied that there can be unlawful eldar.  Thus back to the original question, what would eldar law enforcement be like.

And I have maintained that 'inconsequential' crimes generally do not exist and, as such, there is no law enforcement.  No peaked capped, dome helmeted or whatever, 'coppers' waiting to pounce on unsuspecting criminals...

Incidentally you might want to take a peak at the Tir'asur thread...

I believe the point of dispute...

Don't try and moderate it!  Nooo... Do you know how difficult it is to find even a semi-decent discussion on the 40k universe nowadays.  Almost every single forum has become homogenised by... I don't know what.  I used to take me hours to reply to forums when discussion raged.  Now it takes around 10 minutes, which says a lot.

I'm going to do That Which Is Forbidden, and compare a Craftworld society to a human society...

<grin> It's not forbidden.  It's just a bludgeon used by people who... well, I won't go there.

I think the closest thing you'll find to a Craftworld society in real life would be a large religious retreat, a big Buddhist monastery for example.

That's reasonable.  Indeed, as the pointer above suggests I personally incorporate this.  But it is not a defined 'law enforcement' structure, but rather an aspect of society that in those rare circumstances where it is called upon to engage in this activity fulfills that role.

Religious retreats have rigid hierarchies with great deference to higher ranks required from lower ranks - I can't see this being the same for Eldar. Respect for high ranking individuals, certainly, but not formal obeisance.

On that you have my agreement.

So given the pervasiveness of Eldar society on an individual, the fact that from birth it was the system they'd been raised in, you'd expect most of them to follow it's rules all the time. It's clear there are some who don't from the existence of Outcasts, and from that it's reasonable to infer that there are rare extreme cases where instead of just being misfits there are those who commit criminal acts. I think these would be rare though...

For the most part my point from the get-go...

Kage

[SkavenGuard]

You will note that I included a non-standard situation for extreme cases.  I was, however, arguing against the idea that you have eldar guardians roving the 'streets', or Warlocks reading the mind of everyone, etc.  Rather, eldar society was law and, for the most part, crime was negated by a tendency of 'criminals' to remove themselves from society (i.e. Outcasts).

For the record, I was not advocating the idea of roving gangs of guardians and warlock patroling the neighbourhood either.  I think that there must be some mechanism, organization, philisophy, council, psychic ward, or other gizmo that deals with eldar criminals.  When I say mechanism, I don't mean a machine.  An organization, might just be a temporary council that is called to deal with criminals.  These were just possible suggestions and not the means to an end.

Property?  Real estate is cheap for the eldar and it doesn't even come into consideration.

When I said property I did not mean just real estate.  The things you own are YOUR property.  Property is like your computer, bed, can opener, pen, table, clothes, or jewelry.

Who tend to remove themselves: Outcasts.  Again we return to self-moderation for the most part.  Of course, if one were to concentrate on the extremes...

This just seems to convient.  Anyone who is a trouble maker just leaves???  If this craftworld and eldar life is all they know it would make leaving kind of hard.  And as has been stated eldar have all there tech to provide them all their comforts.  Just because you don't like your neighbour is hardly reason to abandon everything you know.

Does that mean that I shouldn't dismiss it because of the horrendously paltry 'fluff' which means that anything can go and, therefore, taking a stance on anything is a bad thing!?

Hold on a minute.  The fluff does imply that many things are possible.  Some of those possiblities are bad and some are good.

Seriously, though, what is 'political power' or reputation to an eldar? {edited}
And reputation?  Why must eldar be glory hounds...?

I'm taking form the story Doom of the Eldar.  Yriel was a eldar admiral who made a tactical desicion in war.  When he returned home the craftworld did not welcome him as a hero.  Instead they criticized him for his actions.  His pride was injured and he refused to answer to the convining council.  Then he left... (the leaving part does not help my case, but the point is his pride got in the way).  I am not saying that all eldar are glory hounds, but eldar can take things to the extreme (like being lock in a path) so why can't an eldar fall due to pride?

As for those who have spiritual weakness being put in charge, well ideally the in the eldar society the right person gets the right job.  But which eldar is to say what is right and what is wrong.  The story Farseer, mentions that one eldar Farseer was on a mission to prevent a certain future, but other eldar felt that he was wrong.  Thus not all eldar agree all the time. Mistakes happen.

But what if  Slaanesh tricked an eldar? 

The 'fluff' rather strongly suggests that such an eldar could not exist on a craftworld.  By default they are a 'criminal' that have separated themselves...

Considering how you find the fluff questionable, I find it odd that you say this.  The fluff may suggest something, but may not actually say it. Although what is your reference to this suggestion?  What is the basis of your belief on this point?

On that you would not get my disagreement.  They are a part of government, not all of it.

A lot of the fluff and stories have farseers very active in leading their craft worlds  and armies.  This is the source of some the confusion.  There is very little mention on any other leaders.  Except in the story of the Doom of the Eldar which mentions a council being called.

Although in the current codex GW doesn't talk much about eldar paths.

Even the original and more developed WD article which was subsequently bastardised doesn't '"talk much about eldar paths".

SOme of the older material like the WD127 and the second edition do give a good view of what the Path is.  Although far from complete it does hint at other possiblities.  An aside is my concern on what is happening in Epic.  SPecialist gaming is redoing the rules and has introduce the Aurthech (sp?)  apparently this is an eldar that has mastered all the warrior aspects and is lock in one path. If there are multiple warrior paths and to be locked on one is to be come an exarch and never to  leave that path, how does one get locked on them all??  This is another story completely.

If I'm not mistake, you have implied that there can be unlawful eldar.  Thus back to the original question, what would eldar law enforcement be like.

And I have maintained that 'inconsequential' crimes generally do not exist and, as such, there is no law enforcement.  No peaked capped, dome helmeted or whatever, 'coppers' waiting to pounce on unsuspecting criminals...

I would disagree in that there is no law enforcement.  But as I said above, I doubt that is involves eldar on the police officer path or eldar on the lawyer path.  Part of the reason for this belief, is the number of eldar in the community.  The more eldar the more chances of problems.

Incidentally you might want to take a peak at the Tir'asur thread...

I have started to read that thread.  It will take a while to fully digest that much information.  ALthough I must admit, that despite all the eldar names, the colony sounds like a human civilization.  What makes it uniquely eldar?  Granted I have yet to finish reading it.  We will talk about this later. I'll post some comments in that thread.

I believe the point of dispute...

Don't try and moderate it!  Nooo...

At least he said dispute and not arguement.  I quite like this discussion myself.

I think the closest thing you'll find to a Craftworld society in real life would be a large religious retreat, a big Buddhist monastery for example.

That's reasonable.  Indeed, as the pointer above suggests I personally incorporate this.  But it is not a defined 'law enforcement' structure, but rather an aspect of society that in those rare circumstances where it is called upon to engage in this activity fulfills that role.

I would agree with the comparisson to the buddist monistary.  ALthough how many monks are in a monistary and how many eldar are on a typical craftworld.  Again there are (for lack of a better term) rule breakers in a monistary and they are punished.  Okay there are no cops or lawyers or judges, but some one does pass judgement on these rule breakers.  THere is some mechanism in that society or group to deal with rule breakers.  Even if it is for citizens to go to their community leaders and plead their case and have it judge by these leaders.

So given the pervasiveness of Eldar society on an individual, the fact that from birth it was the system they'd been raised in, you'd expect most of them to follow it's rules all the time. It's clear there are some who don't from the existence of Outcasts, and from that it's reasonable to infer that there are rare extreme cases where instead of just being misfits there are those who commit criminal acts. I think these would be rare though...

For the most part my point from the get-go...

Kage

The various craftworlds have different view right.  Samm-hann have a more tribal and clan orientation.  Uwthe has their sear councils.  Beil-Tan have this belief that they must actively protect eldar and exodites.  (damn where is may codex, the Beil-tan have some difference, I just don't remember what)  If the craftworld can have such differences why can't inidividual eldar have them.  If you have individuals then some can be rule breakers.

For Redwall

[Kage2020]

For the record, I was not advocating the idea of roving gangs of guardians and warlock patroling the neighbourhood either.  I think that there must be some mechanism, organization, philisophy, council, psychic ward, or other gizmo that deals with eldar criminals.  When I say mechanism, I don't mean a machine.  An organization, might just be a temporary council that is called to deal with criminals.  These were just possible suggestions and not the means to an end.

Again, there is some misunderstanding.  The point here was that there was no strict organisation that enforces law in the analogous way of the police.  There is no police or, rather, the entire culture is its own police force.  That there are systems in police to moderate 'criminal' activity is a given, though these themselves are a part of the culture rather than something which is seen as a judicial court.

When I said property I did not mean just real estate.  The things you own are YOUR property.  Property is like your computer, bed, can opener, pen, table, clothes, or jewelry.

Yes, I gathered, but it is so much fun to stir every once in a while.  But the point still stands, regardless of tendency to stir.  The eldar have the capability of producing, for the most part, any computer bed, can opener or whatever.  What matter if someone removes one from 'your' room, or rather the space that you happen to be curently enjoying?

This just seems to convient.  Anyone who is a trouble maker just leaves???  If this craftworld and eldar life is all they know it would make leaving kind of hard.  And as has been stated eldar have all there tech to provide them all their comforts.  Just because you don't like your neighbour is hardly reason to abandon everything you know.

That is two different points entirely.  If you don't like your neighbour, you move.  It's not as if the craftworlds are cramped. 

As to peope leaving if they are 'criminals', this is in part due to the definitions that I'm employing so, yes, it is convenient.  We already understand from the 'fluff' that those individuals that cannot bear the 'constraints' of eldar society (note that is society and not the Path!) remove themselves by adopting the Path of the Outcast.  Thus, since society is law they are, by definition, those that cannot conform to the law.  Ergo, they are criminals!

(And, incidentally, in my interpretation the Clan 'chiefs' are those older individuals who have, at some point in their life, walked the Path of the Outcast.)

Yriel was a eldar admiral who made a tactical desicion in war.  When he returned home the craftworld did not welcome him as a hero.  Instead they criticized him for his actions.  His pride was injured and he refused to answer to the convining council.  Then he left...

The problem here is that the stories that are produced quite often make no sense when compared against the other 'fluff' and only become referenced because they are canonical. 

so why can't an eldar fall due to pride?Huh

Fall to Chaos?

The story Farseer, mentions that one eldar Farseer was on a mission to prevent a certain future, but other eldar felt that he was wrong.  Thus not all eldar agree all the time. Mistakes happen.

This does nothing but reinforce the concept of self-responsibility being important to the eldar.

Considering how you find the fluff questionable, I find it odd that you say this.  The fluff may suggest something, but may not actually say it. Although what is your reference to this suggestion?  What is the basis of your belief on this point?

The 'fluff' is, quite simply, confused.  Finding it questionable does not mean that you don't use it.

As to the 'fluff' that you're asking about, first off you've got the warp spiders mentioned in Watson's Harlequin.  They would 'destroy' anything that manifested any "taint of Chaos".  (Internal thoughts of Zephro Carnellian.)  There is also the 'fluff' - probably Farseer - that states that the eldar are practically 'immune' to possession, or at least are (paraphrased) "protected from it in numerous ways."

A lot of the fluff and stories have farseers very active in leading their craft worlds  and armies.  This is the source of some the confusion.  There is very little mention on any other leaders.  Except in the story of the Doom of the Eldar which mentions a council being called.

Of course, since we're actually discussing the 'fluff' it behoves us to actually cross-correlate it as much as possible.  Why would an individual who is entirely subsumed by the study of psychic powers and the scrying of the dendritic nature of future potential be concerned with the day-to-day governance of a society?  (Incidentally, I still argue that eldar society is for the most part 'self-governing' so it's not as if they have to make continual sequences of decisions akin to politicians in the 'real world'.)  The majority of the 'fluff', however, concerns itself with the wargame so it is not surprising that the Farseers are utilised... Of course, eve then things must necessarily be questioned.  Why is a war leader the same individual who is so subsumed by the Path of the Seer?  This is further compounded by the somewhat contradictory 'fluff' which represents the Warlocks as 'apprentices' of Farseers, implying that a Warlock is the first step on the path to become a Farseer.  This is inherently problematic excepting that any part of the Path of the Seer is the first step on the road to becoming a Farseer!   (But see below for a 'fluff'-friendly solution to the problem.)

The real question as to the applicabiity of a Farseer as a political or military leader actually comes from questionning what type of Farseer they are.  Here the 'fluff' on the wargame is useful, or more precisely the background 'fluff' from WD127, since it determines that there is a difference between Exarchs, the 'paramount practitioners' (those that have become trapped on a Path and are therefore the prime examples of the Path) of a given Path.  That is to say that while the majority of individuals become trapped on a specific Way there are some individuals who are capable of cycling through Ways and rather become dominated by the Path.  In the example of the Path of the Warrior these are the Exarchs, who are either dedicated to a single Aspect (I refer to these as the "Shrine Sworn") or those who cycle through the Aspects (i.e. the Menshad Korum, or "Warriors In Search of Themselves").

Thus with Farseers.  In the same way that 'Exarch' is a genericl title that doesn't tell you whether the individual is a Howling Banshee  or a Dire Avenger Exarch, 'Farseer' doesn't actually tell you anything about the origin or type of the 'Farseer'.  Different psykers that become trapped might therefore manifest different preferences and/or abilities that are aspected by the originating Way.  So, a quick example using the Warlock.  Essentially this individual is walking the Way of the Warlock, one of the Ways of the Path of the Seer.  They can change from that to any of the other Ways once they have 'perfected' the requisite skills or they can change Path depending on where they see their next spiritual/mental development leading them.  If they become trapped upon the Path in this particular Way, would they really evidence a homogenised ability while the Exarchs have different ones based upon their Way?  I would say not.  Rather, in this case one could argue that they become 'trapped' upon their Way which revolves around psychic and martial prowess.  Instead of becoming a homoegenised 'Farseer', for want of a better term they would become a 'Battleseer'...

Now as with the Exarchs it would be reasonable to suggest that there are those individuals upon the Path of the Seer that, when they become 'trapped', actually become the equivalent of Menshad Korum.  That is to say that they cycle through the Ways of the Path of the Seer rather than being aspected by a particular Way.  This type of individual is someone that I would definitely see as being far more 'balanced' and capable of leadership, but also one of the rarest types of 'Farseer'.  Even then I would still have them as the 'first among equals' (in true Babylon 5 Grey Council fashion! ) rather than as leaders of the craftworld... But then again I have the 'standard' government as being balanced between a triumverate of councils: Ancestor, Clan and Seer.  The various governments of the craftworlds can be seen as representative of this same general structure, merely with a shifting influence.  Uthwe and Seer Council, Iyanden and Ancestor Council, Saim-Han and Clan Council with an unusual dominance of lineages, etc. 

The great thing about the 'fluff' is that while taken together it is horrendously patchy, it is just enough to create something that does work without the requirement to make the thing out of "disbelievum".

[Kage2020]

SOme of the older material like the WD127 and the second edition do give a good view of what the Path is.

They give a view of the Path that is dominated by the wargame side of things, but otherwise it does give a reasonable explanation which, for the most part, is subsequently ignored by many authors.

SPecialist gaming is redoing the rules and has introduce the Aurthech (sp?)  apparently this is an eldar that has mastered all the warrior aspects and is lock in one path. If there are multiple warrior paths and to be locked on one is to be come an exarch and never to  leave that path, how does one get locked on them all??  This is another story completely.

The 'fluff' is already there on that with reference to the Menshad Korum.  They already walk all the Ways of a Path despite the fact that they are fixed on the Warrior Path.  Again, it is reasonable to infer a similar process for the Farseers that not only explains much of the disparate 'fluff' but also increases the depth and consistency of the game universe.

I would disagree in that there is no law enforcement.

There is a significant difference between the enforcement of law and those forces that may be called upon in those rare circumstances to 'judge', in which case the position and authority derives from consensus.

Part of the reason for this belief, is the number of eldar in the community.  The more eldar the more chances of problems.

There coud be tens of millions aboard a craftworld, or even just a few million... It's still a significant number of individuals when you think about it.  Of course, views on the number of eldar surviving and the numbe of eldar on a craftworld vary significantly!

ALthough I must admit, that despite all the eldar names, the colony sounds like a human civilization.

<grin> It is a caricature of human civilisation just as all alien races are, but it definitely does not come off as human though I'm not surprised to hear you say that.  Even if it were the case, which I would say it is not, it is certainly more non-human than most peoples' representation of the eldar!

The main problem derives from the fact that when you're not trying to pull a GW and say, "Erm, they're alien and therefore cannot be comprehended" it means that you end up drawing from your own experience base, anthropoligical writings, etc., and then it comes down to what you've been exposed to as to whether you think it is human or not.  Heck, I could say that the orks are human since they sound like the Yanomani.  Of course, this act of comparison is exactly the type of cultural transformation and association that is rife through earlier anthropoligical texts.  Consider Caeser's De Bello Gallica as a prime example of this and look what has been done to it in the creation of 19th century romanticised concepts of the 'celts'.

What makes it uniquely eldar?

That it's not yet another dictatorship, theocracy or mageocracy?  That it offers an integrated approach to the 'fluff' that solves all the little problems and has very few flaws... That you might not like it is another question.  People tend to not like something which is not consistent with the own interpretation.

Okay there are no cops or lawyers or judges, but some one does pass judgement on these rule breakers.  THere is some mechanism in that society or group to deal with rule breakers.

Yes, but the analogy falls down somewhat since the eldar that have a problem with society=law tend to do something about it... according to the 'fluff' (although the society=law equation is not technically the 'fluff' but does go someway to explaining eldar cultural homeostasis).

Even if it is for citizens to go to their community leaders and plead their case and have it judge by these leaders.

For me the Councils do operate on a similar principle, but they are not law enforcement.  Rather, they are manifestations of cultural motivations in place by a sense of self-responsibility and peer consensus, as is the practise of any power that might be given to them.  ("...by the people for the people...")

If the craftworld can have such differences why can't inidividual eldar have them.  If you have individuals then some can be rule breakers.

Again, note the above definitions on Outcast, society and law.  The point is that there are no 'rulebreakers' since self-responsibility and moderation mean that one tends to remove oneself from society.  There is no real 'hiding' from other members of society through a combination of racial psychic powers coupled with the activity of the Infinity Circuit (both the Ancestors and, arguably, the gestalt consciousness of the craftworld itself), nor is there the requirement to engage in the activities that humans may consider crime: there is no need.  Any personalities that would tend to produce this type of 'non-normative' behaviour (as considered against the 'static' eldar society) are moderated during childhood socialisation and, if you're a naturist (not nurturist, as it were) gene therapy and psychic intervention...

Again, there is no paramilitary law enforcement in eldar society because of a lack of need.  That does not mean there is no law since society is law perpetuated through practise...

Kage

[Lomendil]

Don't try and moderate it!  Nooo... Do you know how difficult it is to find even a semi-decent discussion on the 40k universe nowadays.  Almost every single forum has become homogenised by... I don't know what.  I used to take me hours to reply to forums when discussion raged.  Now it takes around 10 minutes, which says a lot.

It wasn't moderation. It was rather that there was no dispute over whether Craftworld crime existed.

[Kage2020]

Don't try and moderate it!  Nooo... Do you know how difficult it is to find even a semi-decent discussion on the 40k universe nowadays.  Almost every single forum has become homogenised by... I don't know what.  I used to take me hours to reply to forums when discussion raged.  Now it takes around 10 minutes, which says a lot.

It wasn't moderation. It was rather that there was no dispute over whether Craftworld crime existed.

I don't know... you try and wangle a little dig at the lack of decent discussion on the forums, finding this a perfect opportunity to do so, and it's taken out of context.  <sigh>

(This is tongue-in-cheek, Lom... Just felt that I had to reply to such a lonely reply! )

Kage

[Flash_hound]

I think its a society based on doing the right thing and not repeating former mistakes.  So I believe that at the begginnings of the craftworld there was a SMALL crime rate that only went down.  I agree with people who have said that everything is a path.  I believe that if you do certain crimes well on that path which we wouldn't even consider crimes, you get punished by getting kicked off the path.

Crimes in the new eldar society are so insignifigent to us, that we wouldn't even comprehend there true meaning to the eldar.

Like thinking in a thought process that doesn't befit the aspects train of thought.

A pilot who thinks that they should get more respect and training, or that they don't like the vehicle there in.  Or even people could get in trouble for being in a bad mood.  Or grieving past the grieving time for a death.  Things like that, or love without consulting a farseer first.

Then a small group, of I would imagine armed bonesingers, or people from the aspect who are allowed to judge things that go against the path or eldar society, would punish people, in ways that we wouldn't even consider bad or maybe we would.

Like, forcing them to stay in the webway for 30 years, or encasing them in wraithbone for three days, to understand the truth of the craftworld.

Or maybe being care takers of the infinity matrix, or being forced to take the path that the seers see is right for them, instead of letting them find out for themselves.  Insta-exarch!

Or making them sacrifice a drop of blood to revive a spirit stone and let them join a wraithbone construct.

Stuff like that, nothing really terrible to us, but extremly despised amongst eldar society.

[Kage2020]

...you get punished by getting kicked off the path...

Since the Path is so very important, and indeed to the very souls of the craftworld eldar, surely being removed from the Path is... difficult.  How would one achieve it?  Do you simply say, "You're no longer on the Path" and that is the end of it?

Like thinking in a thought process that doesn't befit the aspects train of thought.

You would imagine that there is this level of constant 'thought police'?

Things like that, or love without consulting a farseer first.

Why would Farseers even be consulted about that kind of thing?

Kage

[Flash_hound]

Since the Path is so very important, and indeed to the very souls of the craftworld eldar, surely being removed from the Path is... difficult.  How would one achieve it?  Do you simply say, "You're no longer on the Path" and that is the end of it?

The path that there on is not a definitive thing.  There are many paths, they would be kicked from the path by pushing them into and finding a new path for the people.

You would imagine that there is this level of constant 'thought police'?

I would like to think that it is more of a yearly test to make sure your fit for your path.

Why would Farseers even be consulted about that kind of thing?

Now come on!  They don't want the fall to happen again, and if love went unchecked and unregarded it could easily make the craftworld at risk from creatures of the warp.

[-=Abyss=-]

I've read that they ahve a diciplined life style so maybe that they are constantly trained for war, the civillian Eldar, which is pretty ahrsh, so this would explain why some would lerk from the warrior path and become and outcast and then a ranger

[Thrawn.]

The path that there on is not a definitive thing.  There are many paths, they would be kicked from the path by pushing them into and finding a new path for the people

It most certainly is a definate thing. The path of the Banshee, they learn nothing else then how do use the Banshee equipment in war to their very best ability. They are not taught how to drive Waveserperents, but to kill with a power sword. It is definatly a very restricted and defined thing.

I find it highly unlikely, unless under the most extreme circumstances that a Eldar would be removed from their path. One must remember that their path is no simple thing like a human to become a carpenter as your are treating this as. The path is there way of life, they do little else but focus on perfecting the one thing their path includes. Could be the path of the best typer for all we know.

I would like to think that it is more of a yearly test to make sure your fit for your path.

A yearly test? Why bother when the Farseer, or anyother highly physic Eldar walks by and just kind of glances around in your mind?

About the issue of love. Heh. I can't comprehend it. I can't comprehend most human choices in love; how can you contimplate alien reactions to love. Despite feeling feelings "10 thousand times stronger" then humans, perhaps love is not the sappy thing in their culture that it is in ours. Perhaps it is the same as blowing your nose, just with a lot more... "umph". < grin >

Hell. I fell pissed when I stub my toe, does that mean an Eldar will become mental unstable with hate? I think we need to step back and look at things a little more realistically before assuming anything about such a delicate issue such as love.