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Author Topic: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise  (Read 9862 times)

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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2005, 05:37:31 PM »
Robots were never, as far as we know, part of Eldar culture. Before the Fall or since. There is something else about the fact that the Eldar never made them; surely they could, they just chose never too. Possibly because spiritstones were just vastly superior in every aspect to an AI, no matter how advanced.
We seem to be shading into interpretation here, which is fine by me.  In this case, however, I do not think that the 'fluff' entirely supports your stance, Rasmus.  E.g.

Quote from: Originally published in WD-n, as part of "The Torturer's Tale"
"...We constructed artificial creatures to farm for us, fight for us, explore for us..."
Of course, this doesn't necessarily state "robots" and could mean bioroids, or whatever, but it's a good as any place to start.

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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2005, 10:24:15 PM »


Onother point I thought up, why don't Eldar (espescially Iyanden) make an army of robots? They have room on the Craftworld, resources, they have a completely automatic industry, with their current population I'm guesseing most of their industrial capacity is being wasted, so why not make robots to bulk up the army's number (I'm thinking things like those in the Linkin Park video clip Points of authority). But I suppose that would be a lot of extra work for GW(meaning it'll never happen).



because it's not part of the Eldar style. If the Eldar were to have their fluff written in such a way as to be strong, they would have flying robot legions, and would all wear super holo-force flying power armor with starcannons.
But that's not the Eldar style

we play 40k. People attack people with chainsaws when they have guns. NOONE would ever do that, but it's cool. The eldar fight with shuriken catapaults and witchblades because it's cool,  not because it's logical or smart or effective, because it's cool

The tau have robots and power armor, because that's cool, and that's their style. I don't think there's any need for a fluffy explination, as 40k is, well, inherently stupid in a logical sense.
Chainsaws man, Chainsaws! Giant robots. Wearing robes to run through the woods!
Look at 40k the way you look at a fun fantasy setting (because that's what it is). You don't think "Why use a sword to fight the dark lord? A pick is a much better armor piercing weapon!"
Noone ever questions why Asurmen uses a sword, when a starcannon is a much better marine buster. It's just cool.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2005, 10:30:01 PM by TheMightyPikachu »
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2005, 11:30:36 PM »
You are, of course, correct.  40k is an outgrowth of WFB and is dogged by the restrictions in the mechanics and imagery of that product.  This is why the "40kFantasy" premise of mine on Portent (and here in Veteran's; must get that moved) is a bit tongue-in-cheek, i.e. remaking the 40k universe in its own image but kind of mirrored... ;)

Anyway, it is all a variation on Rule of Cool, Thematic Armies and Wargame Balance... combined with Edition Drift, of course. :D

Noone ever questions why Asurmen uses a sword, when a starcannon is a much better marine buster. It's just cool.
Actually, I do! ;)

The temptation to make all eldar armour roughly the equivalent of PA in terms of damage resistance is just so tempting, since eldar walked the PA concept off the map millennia ago (for me) or millions of years ago (for the 'fluff')...

Kage

Offline Kettch

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2005, 01:11:25 AM »
Quote from: Originally published in WD-n, as part of "The Torturer's Tale"
"...We constructed artificial creatures to farm for us, fight for us, explore for us..."
Of course, this doesn't necessarily state "robots" and could mean bioroids, or whatever, but it's a good as any place to start.

Quoted from page 9 of the eldar codex in the fluff about warp spiders:

"Warp spiders are named afterthe tiny crystaline creatures that roam a craftworlds infinity matrix, purging it of non-eldar psychic presences."

Would these creatures have been created by the eldar to do this job, or woul the eldar have a relationship with them such as the one between sea annenomys and some crabs. (the sea annenomy sits on the crabs back, and stings anything that tries to eat the crab; the crab allows the sea annenomy to eat the remains of any food that the crab catches). Maybe the eldar feed the creatures and in return the creatures protect the infinity matrix.
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2005, 01:54:24 AM »
I would not think that the Eldar would model an aspect of war after something they created. I belive they are just psychically attuned "instect" or somesuch creature, bred, perhaps, to perform this service.

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Offline Kettch

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2005, 05:12:00 AM »
I would not think that the Eldar would model an aspect of war after something they created.

Good point. I did not think of that.
RULES OF THE AIR:

1. Every takeoff is optional. Every landing is mandatory.

2. Flying is not dangerous. Crashing is what is dangerous.

3. It is always better to be down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here.

4. When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No one has ever collided with the sky.

5. A good landing is one from which you can walk away. A great landing is one after which they can use they can use the plane again.

Offline Kage2020

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2005, 07:35:52 AM »
Good point. I did not think of that.
Arguing with you, there is little information as to the origins of the small warp spiders, whether they are artificial or not or, indeed, if the eldar have lost that particular bit of knowledge.  Personally I don't see a problem with naming them after an artificial something if that 'something' properly represents the 'tactics' of the Aspect Shrine in question. 

Did not someone come up with the "Slicing Orbs of Vandros" or something like that!? ::)

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2005, 10:42:33 AM »
Yeah, but they are just a name. We have no idea, even a conception, of what they are, why they are called that, or how they would personify Khaine, as the other aspects do.

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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2005, 05:36:10 PM »
Although again to be fair the 'representations' of the Aspects are in themselves pretty hokey... Anyone have them to hand, out of interest?

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2005, 01:51:27 AM »
Fire - FireDragons
Dark Death - Dark Reapers
Psychic spider - Warp Spider
Swift assault - Howling Banshee
Tenasious silence - Striking Scorpions
The long lance - Shining Spears
Descending wings - Shooping Hawks
Vigil - Dire Avengers

All are part of what Khaine once was, as far as I understand it.

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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2005, 07:15:35 AM »
And they got away with one of those... how?  Has no-one been exposed, even in periperhy, to Danielle Steele? ;)

Technically speaking, the Warp Spiders could easily represent another aspect of stealth, such as one created through magic...

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2005, 08:37:05 AM »
That would make sense too, I guess.
Maybe "Psychic purging" as the spiders used to clean house back in 2nd ed?

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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2005, 10:59:24 PM »
Yeah, but they are just a name. We have no idea, even a conception, of what they are, why they are called that, or how they would personify Khaine, as the other aspects do.

Can't possibly be too hard. From what we know of Khaine, he likes to kill things, people, lots.

To personify them, well say "Well, Khaine is going to kill you, with this... thing here"
and thus, Khaine approves.
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2005, 07:07:47 AM »
Can't possibly be too hard. From what we know of Khaine, he likes to kill things, people, lots.
That's it, reduce it to the lowest common denominator! ;)  It might be true but that doesn't mean that you have to say it! ;)


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Offline Muggins

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2005, 07:43:50 AM »
Just a thought, on the robot issue. One of the things about the Imperium fluff is that the computer systems in use are not understood by their users. In fact, the systems could be considered the ultimate "Legacy" programmes- layer on layer of programming, until eventually the underlying core system is not understood and is effectively "magic". Now, since there are no programmers to correct the legacy faults, it is quite possible that a chaos virus lurks in the programming, activated on fulfillment of certain commands....

And on a more Eldar theme, one thing that must be said is that as an ancient race, a certain ennui may have taken hold. Why invent new technology, when something has worked in the past? What is the point in competing for resources, or even having kids? It is just so, so ... enervating. Reading the fluff, I get the feel that most of the Eldat on the Craftworlds do very little. We get to see the unusually aggressive ones, who raid and so on. But it is hard to convince most Eldar to fight- they just don't see the point.

Of course, the True Eldar are just having too much funny raiding and causing havoc to improve the race or technology!

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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2005, 01:36:35 PM »
We can also just pretend they're robots.

Next time you field guardians, say they are androids with a combat program.

viola. Robots.

Say everyone is a robot, and that the Farseer's psychic powers are program amplifyers.
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Offline Zucrous Shadowhelm

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #56 on: February 4, 2005, 10:23:49 PM »
May I add this, eldar do not see the future I believe. From what I have read they can see possibilities of the future. They interprete these visions how the see fit. They decide what they beleive will come true atleast I think thats how it works. otherwise there really would be no beating the eldar. to know what your enemy is going to do before they do it.... ahhh that is scary.
    There are many craftworlds out there... possible.... we dont know, yet. The Eldar are kinda in a snag in the fact that they are all alone in a universe full of enemies, enemies who dwarf their resources. The Imperial guard are an inexaustable supply of man power. Orks and nids I dont even want to get into the discussion on how many they could weild. Thank god orks fight eachother more than they fight us. I think many eldar are biding their time, waiting for some miricale to happen. Others like beiltan prefer to be actively engaged.
    Next, The eldar dont nessecarily need #'s for what they do. They choose their battles. They are a race that expects that at sometime in their life they follow a warrior's path. They are skilled warriors, not to mention artists, and engineers, etc. They are probably the most resourceful race in the 40k universe. But yes they are slowly dying.
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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #57 on: February 4, 2005, 11:35:58 PM »
They figure out things like "if this happens, then this will happen, because this caused that to..."

It's also not 100% accurate, or guide and fortune would be "always make armor save and shooting roll"

You can also think of its effect as to how the Eldar can survive outnumbered billions upon billions to one.
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #58 on: February 5, 2005, 12:13:43 PM »
May I add this, eldar do not see the future I believe. From what I have read they can see possibilities of the future. They interprete these visions how the see fit. They decide what they beleive will come true atleast I think thats how it works. otherwise there really would be no beating the eldar. to know what your enemy is going to do before they do it.... ahhh that is scary.
That's kind of how it works, but not quite.  As TheMightyPikachu says it's more a probability kind of thing than the idea that the future is set.  Rather, the Farseers' (and arguably other Seers!) view of the future is dendritic showing the many possibilities.  The job of the Farseer is to see the nexus points and guide the future to what they wish. 

It should be noted, however, that the vision of a Farseer is just one vision.  The 'fluff' indicates (quite reasonably) that every individual sees the future differently, thus the actions of another Farseer can shift the strands of probability making the probable become the improbable as they shift their own preference from improbably to probable and, as the time of the next point and the desired future,

If you want an interesting example of how Farseer/precognitive vision might work then check out Maze of Moonlight, Shroud of Shadow and Strands of Starlight books.  While the 'future vision' is taken into extreme in that trilogy it is a good place to start, I would suggest, for visualising precognitive abilities.  (Incidentally the books are fair enough; nothing too brilliant although some of the imagery and concepts behind it are quite excellent.)

I would hasten to add that ascribing the Emperor with 'definite future sight' would be a horrendous mistake.  With the definition of the 'shadow point' from the novel of the same name (along with the premise behind both the Avatars and the description of the awakening of an exarch this is the only good thing about the entire novel) it is clear that even the Emperor's "vision" was subject to the same constraints as that of the Farseers, i.e. the Horus Heresy was itself a shadow point in his vision.

So to summarise, the Farseer sees the dendritic paths of the future and through dint of will (and more appropriately physical intervention of themselves or others) attempt to select which Path the future will take.  It is not certain that the future will happen since there are competing visions of the future and there is always personal choice, but with this ability the Farseers can change the very 'fate' of the universe.

The Eldar are kinda in a snag in the fact that they are all alone in a universe full of enemies, enemies who dwarf their resources.
The eldar have a number of things on their side, though.  First off, they are very hard to find (I hesitate to say 'impossible') unless they wish to be found.  In this the wargame is totally biased since it is only concerned on fighting little skirmishes and, seemingly, people interpret this as the eldar "constantly being at war". 

Secondly the eldar are probably the single most advanced race that we know about in the 40k universe.  Yes, people are going to say the Necrons but while the Necrons have been slumbering away - if you are to believe the official timeline of the 40k universe - the eldar have been kicking around for a further 60 million years!  While the C'tan supposedly maintain an almost perfect control over the physical universe (this is arguable based more out of statement than representation), they also for the most part do not count.

Thirdly, if you are to believe the 'fluff' (and on this point I do not), they are able to conjure matter out of nothing (well, the warp).  They use this to create their technology, power their technology, etc.  It is the magic make-all that gives them, in essence, infinite resources.

One of the major things keeping the eldar in their place is, and this is an arguable point, their birth/mortality rate which is about the only thing that can explain it.  Otherwise the only other answer is that they remain their because "GW says so" in a very bad form of storytelling.

The Imperial guard are an inexaustable supply of man power.
Well, not inexhaustible...

They are a race that expects that at sometime in their life they follow a warrior's path.
An eldar does not expect to walk any specific Path.

They are skilled warriors, not to mention artists, and engineers, etc. They are probably the most resourceful race in the 40k universe. But yes they are slowly dying.
Ah, I new there would be that 'dying' comment somewhere. ;)

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Offline mikey

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Re: Eldar situation in 40 K universe fluffwise
« Reply #59 on: February 5, 2005, 11:47:23 PM »
i think eldar most definetly cannot create robots nor AI of any kind
i also think theres some doubt to wether they have computers at all but thats another thing
just because eldar are the most technoglicaly advanced race is not to mean that there knoweldge is all encompassing
its quite possible that the abstract idea of artifical intelegence would ever occur to an eldar person

i mean they are far to arrogant for that line of thinking after all to them every other race is nothing but an animal

why would you want a crystal targeting matrix if a computer could calculate the right spot to shot at,
if eldar could make robots and computers then a falcon would not have the 3BS of a guardian surely
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