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Offline Wyddr

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New Railgun rules
« on: December 29, 2021, 03:24:12 PM »
Here's the link to the GW article about it, in case you missed it.

Can we talk about this?

What the actual beslubber, people? I mean, Tau have needed - desperately needed - and upgrade for about 2 editions now, but this amphetamine parrot? This is obscene. This is possibly game breakingly obscene. Bring 2 Hammerheads and you can delete any high-wound model off the board on any given turn.

So, there are 3 ways this goes, so far as I can tell:

1) The Railgun is priced accordingly (like, three digits worth of points alone, at least) and the thing still rides the shelf because nobody is dropping land raider prices for stuff that isn't land raider tough. (Hell, nobody even buys land raiders!)

2) This thing too cheap. Cue outrageous tournament shenanigans as it breaks any army that relies on vehicles or high-wound-count models. Cue multiple point re-balance attempts to get the genie back in the bottle.

3) It is so fragile that it just dies every time it hits the table and they end up riding the shelf, anyway, since they're too expensive for a distraction but not cheap enough to spam.

Maybe I'm overreacting, I don't know, but those stats are truly, truly obnoxious.   
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 06:16:55 AM by Irisado »

Offline Myen'Tal

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Re: New Railgun rules
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2021, 03:39:52 PM »
A couple of members in my own hobby club saw that article too and were talking about it.

Noting the new rules behind the railgun and the other rules revealed for T'au armies and Fire Warrior weapon options - also Crisis Suits - this book is going to bring some absolute pain.

I don't think you're having an overreaction - even though we won't be able to tell how the codex will perform until nearer release. T'au's history for being so oppressive that it became the poster boy for what it means to NOT play warhammer (not fun, first turn obliteration, T'au player is the one playing the game most of the timei) - I think these hints do warrant a caution for those hoping could be reintroduced with more fun, dynamic, and balanced so that players can play the faction without all the bad vibes they get when they played them before.

I am thinking the price of this army is going to go up by quite a bit - if Games Workshop does the right thing.

However, I am in agreement with you that this is far too much.

It's strange, because as much as people complained about Drukhari, Dark Angels, and Mechanicus... I think Custodes, Genestealer Cult, and T'au Empire about to land and start slapping everyone around  :P.

I hope that suspicion of mine is wrong though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 06:17:04 AM by Irisado »
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: New Railgun rules
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2021, 04:30:32 PM »
I'll withhold judgement until the codex has been out for a few months. I do have some thoughts on the matter however.

Single shot weapons in 40k are absolutely terrible atm. There is a lot of luck needed to get a single shot through (hit, wound, armour, damage roll). Folks who run vindicare assassins can tell you, that even with ideal setup, you're not getting damage out of that shot each turn.

Inv. Saves are so prevalent as well, which further hampers single shot guns.

Additionally, terrain in 40k this edition tends to be pretty dense, and it's very common to not have los to enemy armies on t1 when going first, and damage is so Powerful so most single shot weapon platforms will rarely get more than one shot a game.

With this in mind, for a vehicle built around a single shot weapon, you'll have to guarantee that you can trade well with the one shot you'll get.

I do think it's perfectly acceptable for the railgun to one shot a vehicle in the same weight class as it. I do remember back in 3rd/4th it was the most devastating anti-tank gun in the game. Also, its been absolutely useless so far in 8th/9th edition.

I do belive that folks are heavily overreacting. However, for more casual players who don't play with adequate terrain, I could see it causing issues perhaps, but in a competitive setting, it'll need more than a single gun to be more enticing than something with a higher rate of fire.

For the profile, I do think the mortal wounds are a bit much, but I do think that it should ignore inv. Saves (just so that it can more reliably hurt things), and the damage looks fine to me too. It should be able to do 10-12 damage in one shot. Maybe it should have been 2d3 +6 instead of the mortal wounds. Whatever.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 06:17:12 AM by Irisado »
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Re: New Railgun rules
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2021, 08:50:54 PM »
My initial reaction was the same - what the beslubber was GW thinking!

But then the more I looked at it, the more I saw that it isn't nearly as bad as people think it's going to be.
  • On a properly set up board, it is going to have a hard time getting adequate line of sight to make sure it has the LOS needed for the all important shot.
  • It's on a Devilfish chassis.  If dedicated anti-tank look at it the wrong way, it's going to crumple.
  • Talk I've been seeing around is that people are assuming it will be BS4+ base, which drastically reduces it's impact, even with innate rerolls.
  • Being a one shot weapon, it will suffer greatly from miss-reroll-miss.  I will pray to Nuffle in every game I play against Tau
  • It has such a high threat to everything on the board that it will die either before it gets to shoot, or immediately after.  It will not survive for a second shot.

Honestly, I only think it is going to be really viable if taking in threes to ensure that you are getting the number of shots needed to truly impact the game; and to ensure that at least one survives to the second turn.  Really, I see it being around the 180 - 200pt mark.  I think it'll be cute, but don't think it will take long for the allure to wear out as more people find out that their Hammerheads are dying before they get to do anything.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 06:17:19 AM by Irisado »
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Offline magenb

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Re: New Railgun rules
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2021, 05:49:09 AM »
This is just more of the same GW sales pitch, hype it up, make it as good as the hype suggests on release, then rolling nerfs. If you are really lucky your codex might be so insane that it takes a number of nerfs to really pull it back into line *cough* DE *cough*. Wait a few months for the legit rules to finally get printed and you'll be able to pick up a bunch of Tau 2nd hand when the meta chasers have traded their stuff in for the latest codex/supplement.

While it maybe a single shot weapon, you'll find multiples on the battlefield early on to make up for it, they will get a point increase later on as part of the nerfing process. The really smelly cheese will be found during the "leaks" for the codex, the article is already hinting at the fact the rest of the Rail weapons are going to be good, this is just the teaser ;)

« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 06:17:28 AM by Irisado »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: New Railgun rules
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2021, 07:22:25 AM »
I think it'll be cute, but don't think it will take long for the allure to wear out as more people find out that their Hammerheads are dying before they get to do anything.

Okay, sure - but this is *also* a problem, right? (You've described my scenario 3, above). If the goal is "viable, useful unit," then rendering it unusable is also bad.

I would like Hammerheads to be good and useful, but not so overpowered they break the game or cease to be viable. I don't feel like this is tough ask.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 06:17:36 AM by Irisado »

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Re: New Railgun rules
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2021, 12:43:32 PM »
It's impossible to know how viable it'll be without the book. But, I'm in agreement, I would like it to be the right price for it's job.

Granted, the Railgun isn't really going to bother folks who take a bunch of infantry and no tanks/ monsters. Killing two intercessors per shot isn't really living up it's potential lol.


I just wish there was some consistency, as the Gladiator Lancer is supposed to fulfill the same role, but the Heavy Laser cannon is just awful in comparison, and it's 20pts more than the hammerheads current cost.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 06:17:42 AM by Irisado »
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Offline Irisado

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Re: New Railgun rules
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2021, 06:26:25 AM »
The topic title has been edited to confirm to the forum rules, hence why everyone's posts preceding mine appear as edited.  No other content has been changed.  To quote someone else who used to do this job, 'have a nice day' :).

On the topic of this rules change, how viable this is going to be is highly dependent on the points cost and whether it's survivable to warrant a long-term threat.  I have been out of the game for a number of years now, but surely a long-range lightly armoured tank such as this would be incredibly vulnerable to a deep strike attack or infiltrators.  I just cannot see it lasting for much longer than a couple of turns and can it really do sufficient damage in that time?
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: New Railgun rules
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2021, 09:12:20 AM »
It's impossible to know how viable it'll be without the book. But, I'm in agreement, I would like it to be the right price for it's job.

Granted, the Railgun isn't really going to bother folks who take a bunch of infantry and no tanks/ monsters. Killing two intercessors per shot isn't really living up it's potential lol.

This is fair, sure. But there are a lot of models that become just straight-up useless against railguns. Heck, Imperial Knights overall become a dicey proposition.


Quote
I just wish there was some consistency, as the Gladiator Lancer is supposed to fulfill the same role, but the Heavy Laser cannon is just awful in comparison, and it's 20pts more than the hammerheads current cost.

This is closer to the root of the problem, I think. GW isn't bothering with balance at all. Like, I don't even think it's a consideration to see newer books balanced with older ones or models in similar tactical roles to be balanced against each other. They are just slapping crazypants rules on new stuff, willy-nilly, with the knowledge they can always nerf the things later in a FAQ or something.

This is a really, really bad way to run a game system, folks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 02:02:13 PM by Wyddr »

 


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