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Author Topic: Unkillable Imperium  (Read 2255 times)

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Offline adjutantgeneral

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Unkillable Imperium
« on: October 26, 2008, 10:01:41 PM »
There have been several threads on several sites about the so-called 'End Times', death of the Emperor, expiry of the Golden Throne's MOT certificate etc. etc., and what happens then. Even if Terra gets planet-killered by Abbadon the Disappointment (13 Black Crusades and still a loser) or eaten by the offspring of a one-night stand between HR Giger's Alien and the Arachnids from Starship Troopers (sorry, really NOT  a 'nid fan), then so what?? How do most Imperial citizens know the Imperium and the Emperor exist anyway? 'Cos they're told this is so. And how do the people telling the plebs this know that this is so? 'Cos the people above them tell them that this is so. And how do they etc. etc. etc.

The High Lords of Terra may be DXed when Terra gets fireballed, but there will be a second tier scattered around the Imperial-occuppied bits of space who will step up. This seems to be the whole point of Imperial government; redundancy. So, even if the Emp pops his Golden clogs, who'll know? In fact, even if Terra remains intact and the Emperor dies, the only people who'll know will be the Navigators, and the Horus Hresy books indicate that Malcador the Sigilite (spelling??) was on the Throne before the Emperor. Possibly things could carry on as usual if the High Lords could find a sufficiently powerful psyker to take over from the RIP Emperor... they could just leave his (even further decayed) remains on the Throne to keep the Custodes happy while setting up a replacement in the basement... in fact, who says they haven't done so already? The Fabricator-General is a High Lord, and one of his sidekicks (Technicus Primus Eternal, according to some fluff) is chief janitor for the Golden Commode. Surely he at least knows it's breaking down? Do the other Lords? Are they desperately looking for a successor? Lots of 'Inquisitor' scenarios here, maybe. Or possibly more drivelling fluff. Matter of opinion. I just generate this stuff.

Offline bca11

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 10:24:01 PM »
I kind of think the Imperium would crumble without the leadership of Terra.  The status of the emperor is questionable, but I the fall of Terra would cause the Imperium to fragment and die a slow death to the tyranids and orks.  Its entire strength is in its unity.

Offline Irandrura

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2008, 02:12:23 AM »
I kind of think the Imperium would crumble without the leadership of Terra.

You can argue, not without merit, that it already has. Clearly there is far more than just Terra contributing to the existence of the incredibly vague entity 'the Imperium'.

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Offline Brother Khael (Liquidmentality)

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2008, 02:39:36 AM »
Even if the High Lords could find a replacement to run the Astronomicon, it's the Emperors immense psychic power that keeps his home made webway gate shut from demons who are ready to spill out at the first sign of weakness. Without the Emperor or someone his equal in psychic power (Which is nobody. Not even the Eldar have a 50 thousand year old incarnation of thousands of psykers), the floodgates will open and Holy Terra will be a tourist attraction to every demon in the Immaterium, which means no more Astronomicon to guide ships across the galaxy and the slow death of the Imperium will become the rather fast death of the Imperium.
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Offline adjutantgeneral

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #4 on: November 2, 2008, 09:29:01 PM »
Granted, but if Terra is basically fragged anyway, what would it matter if the gate opens? The daemons will only be able to last for a finite period in the material universe anyway, especially if everyone on the planet has been turned to ashes and there are no convenient hosts around.

There are numerous star systems in the Imperium which have little or no contact with the central authority for centuries at a time. On the local level, a large part of the Imperium would likely just keep ticking over; even if local rulers became aware that Terra had gone, it would be in their interests to keep the populace in blissful ignorance to prevent panic and preserve the basis of their own Emperor-given authority. In fact, given that the major purpose of the Imperial bureaucracy and hierarchy based on Terra seems to be the suppression of new ideas or innovation, some segments of the Imperium might experience a kind of Human 'renaissance'. 

The only real problem is the Astronomican. The High Lords aren't stupid; the Mechanicus, at least, must know that the Throne is failing. Surely they are at least working on a back-up of some sort? GW have alluded to this in the latest rulebook's timeline; the thing's getting on a bit now, 10,000 years old, what happens when it finally packs up?

Offline TDB

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #5 on: November 3, 2008, 01:50:01 AM »
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The only real problem is the Astronomican. The High Lords aren't stupid; the Mechanicus, at least, must know that the Throne is failing. Surely they are at least working on a back-up of some sort? GW have alluded to this in the latest rulebook's timeline; the thing's getting on a bit now, 10,000 years old, what happens when it finally packs up?

The Astronomican isn't the same thing as the Golden Throne.  If the Emperor dies (properly) then life would likely go on as it does now, who is going to know that would be stupid enough to tell? 

As for the Astronomican, I would be surprised (read, annoyed at GW) if they had the Emperor create a machine that is incredibly important to the Imperium only work while he was alive.  I know there is fluff saying that the Emperor must "guide the beam" but i don't see the Emperor being that conceited.
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Offline bca11

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #6 on: November 3, 2008, 07:51:39 AM »
As for the Astronomican, I would be surprised (read, annoyed at GW) if they had the Emperor create a machine that is incredibly important to the Imperium only work while he was alive.  I know there is fluff saying that the Emperor must "guide the beam" but i don't see the Emperor being that conceited.

Also, who guided the beam in the great crusade and the entire rest of the time the emperor was out and about slaying his enemies across the galaxy?

Offline KernMist

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #7 on: November 3, 2008, 08:13:10 AM »
The Astronomican isn't the same thing as the Golden Throne.  If the Emperor dies (properly) then life would likely go on as it does now, who is going to know that would be stupid enough to tell? 

Life wouldn't go on though. The Emperor is the Astronomican. Without him producing the guiding light in the warp, then all warp travel (for mankind at least) wouldn't be possible. The Imperium thrives because even if people don't move around and have contact with Terra they are using the beacon to some degree for even the simplist warp jumps. Without the beacon, contact between star systems would fail, and even if you relied on the Psykers taking risks and communicating anyway, then you still couldn't react to any incursions quickly.

The whole point about the Astronomican and the Golden Throne being at risk is so that GW make sure that the Future isn't bright and rosey.

Offline bca11

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #8 on: November 3, 2008, 08:16:05 AM »
How did warp travel occur before the emperor became the glorified corpse of an astronomicon you say he is now?  Who guided the beacon etc...  Someone other than the emperor had to do it while he was out and about.  Someone else can do it again.

Offline Khodexus

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #9 on: November 3, 2008, 08:47:46 AM »
From my understanding, the Astronomicon is actually a "choir" of a thousand (or maybe several thousand) psykers all projecting simultaneously from Terra.  The Emperor may guide it, but he isn't the Astronomicon himself.  As such I'm sure they could figure something out to keep it working (to some degree) even without the Emperor's admitedly powerful and skillful guidance.

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Offline Grand Master Stark

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #10 on: November 3, 2008, 09:51:49 AM »
But either which way, there would still be the problem of the hordes of Daemons invading reality through the Golden Chair...I mean, surely, the presence of the Astronomicon would seem a tasty ssnacl to some chaotic entities, yes?  ;)
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #11 on: November 3, 2008, 10:25:48 AM »
How did warp travel occur before the emperor became the glorified corpse of an astronomicon you say he is now?

You don't strictly speaking need the Astronomican for Warp travel, just as you don't strictly speaking need a lighthouse to go sailing. It just helps.

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But either which way, there would still be the problem of the hordes of Daemons invading reality through the Golden Chair...

Ugh, please don't mention that...
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Offline Spiritwarroir

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #12 on: November 3, 2008, 11:29:20 AM »
The question is not the Astromican failing but the Astropaths loss.  With out them who keeps up the information network?  How many of them having been gifted part of the Empires power die with him?  How do make more when they die?    I would worry more about the Astropath network than the Astomican.

Offline nedius

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #13 on: November 3, 2008, 12:28:15 PM »
I think you could separate The Imperium and Humanity - The Astronomicon allowed much longer warp journeys. Short ones would still be possible, and the Tau certainly make that work.

Ultramar, for example, would probably function more or less as it already does. I may expand slightly to control other nearby systems. It may even alter it's philosophy and make a non-agression pact with the nearby Tau. If Terra was lost, It could go one of two ways. Either a new council would form under the guidance of a Calgar like character (ala Guilimanne after the Emperor was enthorned), or it would break down into essentially fudal realms under the command of IG generals, Fleet commanders or SM chapters - sort of like the Star Wars universe after the death of the Emperor.
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #14 on: November 3, 2008, 04:20:18 PM »
Quote from: Spiritwarroir
The question is not the Astromican failing but the Astropaths loss.
Astropaths, as with Navigators, give the Imperium a strategic advantage, but the Imperium is hardly going to fail without them.

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I think you could separate The Imperium and Humanity...
Indeedy.  That's a little idea that most people tend to gloss over.

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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #15 on: November 3, 2008, 07:35:37 PM »
Indeedy.  That's a little idea that most people tend to gloss over.

In fairness, for propaganda purposes the leaders of the Imperium itself like to identity the Imperium and humanity. ;)
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #16 on: November 4, 2008, 09:33:56 AM »
That's true.  So it just depends on what context you're replying from... ;)

Kage

Offline adjutantgeneral

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #17 on: November 4, 2008, 06:04:05 PM »
Somone said earlier that the Astropaths are 'gifted some of the Emperor's power' or something like that... that's the soul-binding, but all that does is give them some protection from possession (which doesn't always work), and yet there are plenty of psykers out there who haven't been soul-bound and yet get by perfectly well. Granted, they are the more powerful ones, but Astropaths must ave a reasonable level of power to transmit messages across large chunks of the galaxy, surely?

To add to my point earlier about the High Lords or whoever else surely having a back-up plan, how do we know that the Emperor and the soul-binding are actually essential? The Imperium is all about social control through secrecy and disinformation, and telling the populace, and their leaders, at large that all of Human society depends for survival on the Emperor, and that warp travel and interstellar communication will break down without him, would tend to suit their agenda to remain in power.

There was fluff ages ago in various places about the whole 'Star Child' thing, and various bits of the establishment being terrified of some of the more ambitious Thorian hopes to regenerate, reincarnate, or maybe even replace the Emperor, as a walking, talking Emperor (or replacement) would remove any need for High Lords, so some of them are liable to face a sharp reduction in status, wealth and power. Could this whole dependency on the Emperor simply be propaganda as part of the same agenda?

And, yeah, who the Hell was generating the Astronomican during the Great Crusade, and even just after the Emperor's death? They didn't build the Golden Throne overnight, some background has it that the Emperor maaged to retain consciousness logn enough to tell Dorn to build it, and yet Russ at al managed to navigate their way to the Eye of Terror in pursuit of the Traitor Legions. Even if the Emperor was generating the beacon all the time, he was evidently manging to do it without aving to rather vampirishly absorb the life-force of a thousand-odd psykers per day, and if his psychic presence remained pretty much as it was regardless of his physical state, then why the sudden need for that when interred in the Throne?

Sorry, but too many contradictions. It's all a conspiracy; someone call David Icke.

Offline Ailaros

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #18 on: November 5, 2008, 12:47:52 AM »
yup, if the emperor goes kaput, the astronomicon goes out, almost all space travel grinds to a halt, and civilization as we know it completely ceases to exist literally over night.

No communication, no trade, no support. All the hive planets immediately starve to death, and the economy completely shuts down. With no communication or transportation, the enemies of the imperium kill off every planet (that isn't guarded by an entire space marine chapter, and even then, it's a matter of time) one at a time until it's all gone.

While they may not all know what the imperium is, they all exist at all because of it.

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Offline TDB

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Re: Unkillable Imperium
« Reply #19 on: November 5, 2008, 01:23:06 AM »
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yup, if the emperor goes kaput, the astronomicon goes out, almost all space travel grinds to a halt, and civilization as we know it completely ceases to exist literally over night.

*sigh*  No, no it doesn't.  The Astronomican is "lit" by the sacrifice of psykers, not the Emperor and while there is evidence that it requires the Emperor's guidance i find this highly unlikely.  Even if it were, the Emperor would communicate how to guide it through other means before his death (assuming he didn't want the Imperium thrown into turmoil for some reason).

As for space travel, it was done, if slower for millenia before the Astronomican was contructed.  So even if it stops working warp travel will still be more than possible.  It is even quite possible the Imperium will survive if in a looser and more "city state" style (of course it basically works like this anyway so...)

So civilisation will not cease to exist over night or even a hundred years, such a belief is a myth.
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